Leeds City Council Bus Lane PCN

[Mistertaximan]

Hi!

 

I have just received two Bus Lane PCN's from Leeds CC on the same day. Both "offences" were captured by the same camera, on the same road, a mere 82 seconds apart. So essentially, two fines for the same alleged offence. Extortion.

 

The mitigating circumstances are that I was in an area restricted to buses and taxis. I clearly remember the signage as I entered this area at 22.00 hours but I was unconcerned as I am a licenced private hire taxi driver working out of York. I was taking a fare from York to Leeds at the time.

 

It appears from my online research this evening that only taxis that are licenced as hackney carriages by Leeds City Council are in fact permitted to use the areas restricted to buses and taxis.

 

1. As an out of town taxi I could not reasonably have been expected to know this.

 

2. In the City of York, where I am licenced, all taxis (both hackney & private hire) are permitted to use all bus lanes at all times.

 

3. The signage merely said buses and taxis. It did not say "hackney cabs licenced by Leeds City Council".

 

4. Two PCN's for the same error???

 

How to deal with this effectively and maximise chances of PCN's being rescinded? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks

 

Mistertaximan.

[green_and_mean]

You are not a taxi, its your occupation you should know the difference between a taxi and a PHV, York may well let PHV in their Bus lanes but the signs are probably amended to show this. The conditions of your licence even states...

 

Vehicle sideplates must bear the name of the private hire business and the telephone number.

 

They must also include the wording "PRIVATE HIRE VEHICLE - PRE BOOKED ONLY"

in suitable lettering at least 50mm (2”) high. The sign must not include the words "FOR HIRE

"TAXI", or "HACKNEY CARRIAGE".

You are therefore not a taxi or a taxi driver you are a PHV

 

The main issue therefore is the 2 PCNs for the same contravention but since you have given very little details other than its 82 seconds its hard to comment on their validity.

[Mistertaximan]

Green & Mean,

 

Thank you for your reply. I am aware of the difference between private hire vehicles and hackney carriages.

 

My argument is two fold. Firstly, that York makes no distinction whatsoever between the two when it comes to bus lanes (and I assure you that the signage is no different to anywhere else either), therefore, I am not accustomed to being subject to restrictions on bus lanes. This is surely reasonable mitigation. I did not knowingly commit an offence in Leeds.

 

Secondly, that the signage in Leeds should state "hackney carriage" and not "taxi". I'm sure the thousands of customers I have carried would be interested to know that they have not been in a taxi. The private hire company I work for is called "Fleetways Taxis York Ltd", although the side plates are abbreviated to simply Fleetways.

 

I am quite sure that all the licenced PHV drivers in Leeds will know they cannot use the bus lanes, it will form a part of their knowledge test, but is it reasonable to expect an out of town PHV to know the local rules? I suggest not.

 

I will scan the two notices later today and try to get them up on the thread.

 

Once again, I appreciate your time and trouble.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Mistertaximan
typo

[green_and_mean]

The private hire company I work for is called "Fleetways Taxis York Ltd", although the side plates are abbreviated to simply Fleetways.

 

 

 

Yes because they would be breaking the law by putting 'Taxi' on the vehicle! A taxi is licensed to be hailed in the street and pick up from a 'taxi' rank, a PHV is a 'minicab' that can only take pre booked passengers. I don't think most people would be that surprised you are not a taxi the majority of people know the difference. The fact that York allows PHV in a bus lane is never going to be a defence unless of course Leeds also do? I'm not sure how York or any other Council would have a list of every minicab in the uk, so it may just be a case of getting a ticket and then appealing.

[crem]

I don't think most people would be that surprised you are not a taxi the majority of people know the difference

 

Personally I think 99% of people would call them all taxis. I know I have never telephoned for a private hire vehicle or minicab even. I have a couple of numbers stored in my phone though under the heading "taxi"

[green_and_mean]

Personally I think 99% of people would call them all taxis. I know I have never telephoned for a private hire vehicle or minicab even. I have a couple of numbers stored in my phone though under the heading "taxi"

 

I think you are in the minority if anything people would call a 'cab', besides what the public think has nothing to do with it, if its your job you should know, its like a PCSO thinking he is a police officer.

[Mistertaximan]

You are missing the point. I have not registered here to debate the definition of a taxi. I have learned nothing that I do not already know. What I am trying to do here is to canvas opinion on whether the word taxi is sufficient in terms of signage. Everybody in the industry is clear about the difference between hackney carriages and private hire vehicles, but the word taxi is much more erroneous.

 

Consider the last time you called a taxi. Probably you rang the number of a private hire company. Did you decide to pre book a PHV or did you ring for a taxi? When the car pulled up did someone say "the PHV is here" or did they say "the taxi is here"? Did you notice the taxi meter in the car? Did you settle your taxi fare with the taxi driver? When asked by your friend in the pub "how did you get here?", did you say "I pre-booked a PHV" or did you say "I came by taxi"?

 

My point is that licencing authorities may reserve the term taxi for hackney carriages, but back in the real world we all term PHV's as taxis. We all call ourselves taxi drivers and we all drive taxis. If a licencing authority decides to make a distinction between hackneys and PHV's in terms of bus lane restrictions then they need to be absolutely clear in their signage. Sticking the word taxi on a sign when they really mean hackney carriages isn't good enough in my opinion.

 

Does anyone feel that I have a point or is the general consensus that it's a non starter? If it's the latter then I will probably focus on over zealous PCN enforcement.

[sailor sam]

There is a similar argument with coaches. Coaches (which are registered as a 'bus' on their tax disc) are also normally not allowed in bus lanes unless operating as a stage carriage service. But you will always get conflicting information between drivers because of the taxation class. Some think they can drive in bus lanes and stop on restricted clearway bus stops but if they are operating a private hire job, then they become a private hire vehicle. Even a bus operating on private hire shouldn't use a bus lane or stop on a restricted bus stop. Obviously some will consider this to be a grey area in fact, I bet you will even get differing opinions from police officers!

 

I used to drive PHV's in Wolverhampton may moons ago. A PHV was only allowed to use a bus lane when carrying a fare. Taxis were allowed whether carrying a fare or not.

 

AFAIK the true definition of a taxi is a vehicle which is licensed as a hackney carriage. The term 'taxi' is used loosely When talking about a PHV. It's easier to say!

 

Please Note

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

Edited August 13, 2013 by sailor sam

[Mistertaximan]

Thank you for your reply Sailor Sam. I had wondered about the definition of a bus myself. I understood it to be a vehicle with more than eight passengers, but as I don't drive a bus I admit that I am fairly ignorant where they are concerned.

 

I have scanned the PCN's onto a memory stick but Windows doesn't recognise the file type. Grrr...

 

One more question folks: If I appeal to Leeds CC and it is rejected, can the basis of my appeal to the independent regulator be broadened/altered/changed or do I just get one shot at it?

[Mistertaximan]

its like a PCSO thinking he is a police officer.

You imply that PHV drivers are something less than "real" taxi drivers. Rude and unnecessary my friend.

[Mistertaximan]

Collins English Dictionary definition of a taxi:

 

taxi [ˈtæksɪ]n pl taxis, taxies (Business / Commerce) Also called cab taxicab a car, usually fitted with a taximeter, that may be hired, along with its driver, to carry passengers to any specified destination.

 

A PHV meets this criteria. The use of the word taxi specifically in reference to hackney carriages is vague, confusing, unspecific, erroneous and misleading.

[sailor sam]

Thank you for your reply Sailor Sam. I had wondered about the definition of a bus myself. I understood it to be a vehicle with more than eight passengers, but as I don't drive a bus I admit that I am fairly ignorant where they are concerned.

 

I have scanned the PCN's onto a memory stick but Windows doesn't recognise the file type. Grrr...

 

One more question folks: If I appeal to Leeds CC and it is rejected, can the basis of my appeal to the independent regulator be broadened/altered/changed or do I just get one shot at it?

 

That is correct. But as I said, there are a few grey areas to how the vehicle is being used to whether it is strictly a 'bus'. For example, the national concessionary free travel scheme for the over 60's entitles pass holders to have free off peak travel on any stage carriage service. That of course could be operated by a coach. BUT the scheme does not extend to buses being used on tourist services (such as open top tours) which would be operated by a bus.

 

Point is it depends how the vehicle is being defined and it appears that this can vary from area to area. As I said, in Wolverhampton PHVs (mini-cabs) could use bus lanes only when carrying a fare even though the signs stated 'except taxis' or had 'taxi' included on the bus/cycle symbol. But it dosn't necessarily follow that all towns/cities will have the same arrangements/exceptions. Personally I think there should be a UK set rule as there is no way knowing (unless you research before hand) what rules apply to where. There is also the possibility the camera operator did not identify your vehicle as being licensed PH. Do you have a roof sign for example? Or is your rear mounted 'plate' obviously visible?

 

While I agree with G & M in saying that a PHV is not technically a taxi, I think you should appeal on the basis of the differing exemptions between your 'home' town and that of Leeds. Simply state that you assumed that the rules would be the same being as though you were in fact within the same county and grovel a bit. It should be noted though, that ignorance of the law is not normally a valid defense. But sometimes common sense has to come into it. After all, you are providing a service to the public in the same way that a taxi does.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[Mistertaximan]

Yes G&M is technically correct in so far as licensing regulations are concerned though dictionary definition contradicts. I have now unearthed at least two York PHV drivers who have already appealed to Leeds CC and lost. They didn't take it further. The reason we are being caught out at the moment is that it was only recently that Leeds allowed any taxis on their bus lanes. At least that was simple enough to understand. Now that they do allow, we have assumed that applies to us PHV's too as we have never known any different.

[sailor sam]

If you are still within the discounted period I would deffo appeal using the lines I suggested in my previous post. You could point out that you personally were not gaining any advantage by using the bus lane... but your passenger may of done (just as he/she would had they been in a 'taxi'). If it is rejected then you need to decide whether to take it to the adjudicator or take the hit. I would be inclined to have a word with your base operator (assuming you rent your car from a company) to see what they think. I'm sure they would rather see some clarification on this as well. Maybe the only way is for someone to take it all the way, but i'm not going to advise you to do that as it's not my money!

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[green_and_mean]

You imply that PHV drivers are something less than "real" taxi drivers. Rude and unnecessary my friend.

 

No I am stating they are two different things maybe its your attitude to PCSOs that is 'rude'?

[green_and_mean]

Collins English Dictionary definition of a taxi:

 

taxi [ˈtæksɪ]n pl taxis, taxies (Business / Commerce) Also called cab taxicab a car, usually fitted with a taximeter, that may be hired, along with its driver, to carry passengers to any specified destination.

 

A PHV meets this criteria. The use of the word taxi specifically in reference to hackney carriages is vague, confusing, unspecific, erroneous and misleading.

 

“taxi” means—

 

(a)

in England and Wales, a vehicle licensed under—

(i)

section 37 of the Town Police Clauses Act 1847(11); or

 

(ii)

section 6 of the Metropolitan Public Carriage Act 1869(12);

 

 

 

or under any similar enactment; and

 

(b)

in Scotland, a taxi licensed under section 10 of the Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982(13);

[crem]

I passed by a set of 3 "private hire vehicles" parked up in a car park presumably waiting for that all important call to arms. They all had upon their roof the standard type plastic roofbox that lights up, and on it was the one clear word.... "TAXI"

[green_and_mean]

I passed by a set of 3 "private hire vehicles" parked up in a car park presumably waiting for that all important call to arms. They all had upon their roof the standard type plastic roofbox that lights up, and on it was the one clear word.... "TAXI"

 

How do you know it wasn't a Taxi!? Its actually illegal to call yourself a Taxi maybe you could mention it to the guy next time you see him!

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/34

 

64

 

Roof-signs on vehicle other than taxis.

 

There shall not, in any part of England and Wales outside the metropolitan police district and the City of London, be displayed on or above the roof of any vehicle which is used for carrying passengers for hire or reward but which is not a taxi—

 

(a)any sign which consists of or includes the word “taxi” or“cab”, whether in the singular or plural, or “hire”, or any word of similar meaning or appearance to any of those words, whether alone or as part of another word; or

 

(b)any sign, notice, mark, illumination or other feature which may suggest that the vehicle is a taxi.

 

(2)Any person who knowingly—

 

(a)drives a vehicle in respect of which subsection (1) is contravened; or

 

(b)causes or permits that subsection to be contravened in respect of any vehicle,

 

shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.

 

(3)In this section “taxi” means a vehicle licensed under section 37 of the Town Police Clauses Act 1847, section 6 of the Metropolitan Carriage Act 1869, [F28section 10 of the Civic Government(Scotland) Act 1982] or any similar local enactment.

[Mistertaximan]

Confusingly, some hackneys also moonlight for private hire companies. They have the illuminating sign as well as the PHV sideplates. The whole business is a shambles.

[Mistertaximan]

The Law Commision have been looking at the taxi industry's regulations for some time. We shall see what they come up with in due course...