TFL Code 31, Box Junction Offence, I was not the Driver

[comebackjimmy]

Hi all

 

I lent my car to my brother who took it to London and whilst there was imaged entering/stopping a boxed junction.

 

I have received the penalty charge notice which I intend to appeal.

 

However, a technical issue exists on the form. It says I can make representations on any of the five grounds listed which summarised are; I was not the owner, the offence was not committed, the car was stolen, it was a hire car, the penalty amount is wrong.

 

My personal defence is that I was not the driver but nowhere on the form is there an option to state that.

 

As I am the registered keeper of the vehicle am I personally liable for the driving offences carried out by people using my vehicle? I somehow think not.

 

I would be grateful for any advice and opinions on how to respond to this form.

 

I guess at some point the offence may find its way back to the true defendant in the form of an amended notice in which case I guess I would continue the thread as my brother was forced to stop in the box by pedestrians obstructing his exit.

 

Many thanks in advance

 

PS According to the notice it is supposed to be possible to make representations online at www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers

 

Feel free to have a look at that site. anyone able to tell me where exactly I can find the link to enable me to do this?

[sailor sam]

Its a non-endorseable offense so as such it is appropriate to hold the RK responsible. You in turn recover the money for the penalty from whoever was driving the car.

 

Having said that, do we know that the box junction was compliant?

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[Michael Browne]

As I am the registered keeper of the vehicle am I personally liable for the driving offences carried out by people using my vehicle? I somehow think not.

 

I'm afraid ultimately the registered keeper is liable, regardless of who was driving.

 

You can appeal and the penalty charge will be held at the discounted amounted while they consider your representations.

[green_and_mean]

Feel free to have a look at that site. anyone able to tell me where exactly I can find the link to enable me to do this?

 

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/redroutes/5174.aspx

[comebackjimmy]

Thank you Michael sailor and Mean for your prompt responses.

 

As I understand it then I am responsible for the actions of another driver. Does not sound very just to me but so be it.

 

I do not know if the box is/was compliant or the exact circumstances surrounding the incident except to say I understand the exit was clear when my brother entered the junction and he was forced to stop because of pedestrians. Another vehicle had to do the same thing.

 

I will post pics and details in a later post and formulate a reply to TFL for you all to have a comment on if you want.

 

Thanks again and watch this space.

[green_and_mean]

As I understand it then I am responsible for the actions of another driver.

 

 

No you are responsible for YOUR vehicle.

[sailor sam]

Thank you Michael sailor and Mean for your prompt responses.

 

As I understand it then I am responsible for the actions of another driver. Does not sound very just to me but so be it.

 

I do not know if the box is/was compliant or the exact circumstances surrounding the incident except to say I understand the exit was clear when my brother entered the junction and he was forced to stop because of pedestrians. Another vehicle had to do the same thing.

 

I will post pics and details in a later post and formulate a reply to TFL for you all to have a comment on if you want.

 

Thanks again and watch this space.

 

Not really. The driver (whoever he was) was driving your vehicle which is your responsibility. If the driver has contravened the box junction, then he pays the fine via you. If however he says he didn't, then you complete the section saying the contravention didn't occur and give your reasons.

 

So basically the process should not affect you personally providing the driver pays the fine. Had it been an endorseable offense (such as speeding), then you would of received a notice of intended prosecution (NIP) where you would of had the opportunity to provide the driver's details (had you not been the driver). That then ends your responsibility providing that you provide accurate information relating to the driver.

 

Please Note

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[Raykay]

It is a 'Notice To Owner' and It is the owner's responsibility to deal with the matter, unless it is shown to the contrary, it is assumed to be the registered keeper.

[crem]

I do not know if the box is/was compliant or the exact circumstances surrounding the incident except to say I understand the exit was clear when my brother entered the junction and he was forced to stop because of pedestrians. Another vehicle had to do the same thing.

 

Then that would mean the defence should be "the contravention did not occur".

 

Provided the exit was clear when he entered, then having to stop due to oncoming traffic, or in this case, a developing hazard that occurred after he had entered the box, then he con't be guilty of not being phycic and predicting the pedestrians would odstruct his exit.

 

Request to vies the CCTV of the incident and hopefully you should be able to substantiate the facts.

[Kiki1]

CCTV round here appears to look at the box junction itself, the surrounding area where issues cause some form of back-log into the area under surveillance appear to be ignored.

 

Nice little earner as well, but completely unconnected of course

[sailor sam]

CCTV round here appears to look at the box junction itself, the surrounding area where issues cause some form of back-log into the area under surveillance appear to be ignored.

 

Nice little earner as well, but completely unconnected of course

 

They probably haven't supplied you with the complete footage. Contact them and ask to go and view it at their offices when you can make comments.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[green_and_mean]

CCTV round here appears to look at the box junction itself, the surrounding area where issues cause some form of back-log into the area under surveillance appear to be ignored.

 

Nice little earner as well, but completely unconnected of course

 

The regulations that cover cctv enforcement of traffic offences only allows the operator to view the area of the offence if they pan out to view the surrounding area in enters the area of public space surveillance which they are not authorised to carry out.

[comebackjimmy]

Hi all

 

I have returned the Representation Form ticking the box to state that there was no contravention. I have added additional typewritten notes which say as follows:

 

This vehicle was being driven by my brother at the time.

When he entered the box junction the exit route was clear and he continued moving through the junction. However, he was forced to stop by pedestrians crossing in front of him. He did not stop until forced to do so by pedestrians who were not obstructing the exit at the time he entered the box junction.

I therefore appeal the penalty.

If you still wish to pursue the penalty please provide me with a copy of all evidence you wish to rely on and in particular the video evidence. The video or other evidence will need to clearly show that a. He entered the box junction without the exit being clear and b. that he could have SAFELY cleared the junction without striking any pedestrians and was therefore not forced to stop.

It is paramount that pedestrians are not endangered by vehicles attempting to leave a box junction to avoid a penalty.

Given his care in looking after pedestrians rather than speeding through the junction, and given the location of the vehicle at the time of the alleged contravention which although on the box is not obstructing traffic moving left to right across the box you may wish to give consideration as to whether pursuit of this alleged offence is fair and appropriate.

Anybody wishing to view the notice and the positioning of the vehicle is welcome to look at the attached notice in PDF.

 

[comebackjimmy]

Hullo all

 

Just posting an update.

 

I received a video of the incident and it was clear enough that my brother had committed the offence and no argument was possible.

 

Due to on going money situation I could not pay the bill and in the normal course of things it escalated by stages to £202 before being flicked out to Marstons who added another £11.20 of fees.

 

Anyway I finally had the money to pay it and phoned them today to pay and they added another £1 as a debit card fee!

 

I asked them how I could pay them without incurring the debit card fee and they said it was always added. I then asked them why they did not just add it to their fees and was told to write and complain if I wanted!

 

(PS They started asking me a lot of questions including what my mobile number was. I asked them why they needed the data when all I was doing was paying the bill. They said it was data protection. Anyway I refused to give them my mobile number and said they had sufficient information to accept my payment. They took the money!). (Their payment automation line was not working when I called). Clearly they don't need all the things they are asking for so as a guide to others in the same situation I suggest once you have quoted their reference number and your vehicle details they have sufficient information and you should tell them so.

 

So first of all thanks to all who contributed to this thread which from the point of view of dealing with the traffic offence I can now close.

 

Secondly, anybody want to comment on the extra £1. Is there by any chance a fiddle being carried out by Marstons? I wonder if they have a contract with Transport for London with set fees which they have sneakily added a £1 to without telling anyone?

 

Your comments welcome on this thread.

 

Thank you all.

[green_and_mean]

Shame you didn't keep us updated we could have saved you £100! For future reference if you cannot pay the best option is to go to PATAS as the cost does not go up and it gives you a couple of months to save up.

[comebackjimmy]

*Sigh*

 

Shows the value of keeping up to date on this site!