Open & Shut case for Compensation?

[tc5712]

My Family & I were booked onto the 14:50 flight from Luton to Bodrum. (4th June 2013)

 

We eventually took off at 23:15 from GATWICK!

 

Still away at the moment so will fill out the form that Monarch have emailed me when I get back.

 

The only info I have heard at the moment of the cause is because the flight from Faro to Luton that morning had a technical fault which had the knock effect of our delay.

 

They can't refuse this one, surely? (The flight was 2723Km and there were 4 of us, 2 adults, 1 child, 1 infant).

 

Anyone know likely payout if they cough up?

 

TIA

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How did you get to Gatwick?

 

They bused us there scotgal... 2 hours after scheduled departure time.

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Forms scanned and emailed this evening. Thanks for the advice so far

 

Watch this space!

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Reply today from Monarch. Any advice of where to go from here?

 

Dear Mr XXXXXXXX

 

Re: ZB812 Luton to Bodrum on 04th June 2013

 

Further to your claim for delay compensation, we are writing to advise the outcome of our investigation into your case.

 

Monarch Airlines aims as its first priority to provide its passengers with a safe and efficient service. We would like to reassure you that every reasonable effort is made to ensure that our flights depart on time and in the unlikely event we are unable to do so through disruption, we aim to provide a solution at the earliest opportunity.

 

As previously advised, in some circumstances passengers may be entitled to compensation for delay arising from such disruption under European Union laws. However, any monetary payments are subject to certain criteria being satisfied. Under these laws where the disruption is caused by an ‘extraordinary circumstance’ which the airline was reasonably unable to prevent, the carrier is not obliged to pay compensation. Extraordinary circumstances have been defined by the courts and the European Regulations themselves provide a non-exhaustive list of which circumstances can indeed be categorised as extraordinary.

 

Our records show that the aircraft that was originally scheduled to operate your flight had to return to stand in Faro on its previous flight, due to it developing a left and right wing leak message and a left bleed fault. This rendered the aircraft unserviceable and unsafe to operate until the requisite rectification work could be completed.

 

As a consequence, your departure from Luton was unavoidably delayed. However, we did transfer passengers to the first available aircraft from within our fleet, however, this aircraft had to operate from London Gatwick and accordingly, we arranged for passengers to be transferred to Gatwick in order to take the flight. Your flight then departed at the earliest opportunity once the replacement aircraft had completed its previous flying commitments and all the passengers were in place at Gatwick in order to depart.

 

Having considered the factual background of this case, we are satisfied that the disruption was caused by an extraordinary circumstance that could not have reasonably been prevented by Monarch Airlines. We are, therefore, unable to accept your claim for compensation for the reasons given.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Hayley Taylor

EU Claims

Monarch Airlines

[tc5712]

Hmm, the plot thickens after a very brief google search I found http://www.flightmole.com/extraordinary_circumstances.htm

 

According to them it is the airline that has to provide the burden of proof that the delay was caused by an 'extraordinary circumstance'.

 

How do I best pursue this? I have no clue as to aircraft maintenance and if this could be avoided though I suspect it could.

 

I also made an identical claim of behalf of my wife as we were travelling together and I got the identical reply below but from a different agent. Must be a trying job sending all these refusal letters! (An Airbus A321-231 takes 220 people, the flight wasn't entirely full so make that 200 ppl, maybe a third of people know about the EU rules & and have claimed? So that makes approx 60 odd people to email). I could do that in an hour, cutting and pasting names let alone mail merge!.

 

Good to see they have their stories straight though. What with the 2 emails being IDENTICAL!

 

Dear Ms XXXXXXX

 

 

 

Re: ZB812 Luton to Bodrum on 04th June 2013

 

 

 

Further to your claim for delay compensation, we are writing to advise the outcome of our investigation into your case.

 

 

 

Monarch Airlines aims as its first priority to provide its passengers with a safe and efficient service. We would like to reassure you that every reasonable effort is made to ensure that our flights depart on time and in the unlikely event we are unable to do so through disruption, we aim to provide a solution at the earliest opportunity.

 

 

 

As previously advised, in some circumstances passengers may be entitled to compensation for delay arising from such disruption under European Union laws. However, any monetary payments are subject to certain criteria being satisfied. Under these laws where the disruption is caused by an ‘extraordinary circumstance’ which the airline was reasonably unable to prevent, the carrier is not obliged to pay compensation. Extraordinary circumstances have been defined by the courts and the European Regulations themselves provide a non-exhaustive list of which circumstances can indeed be categorised as extraordinary.

 

 

 

Our records show that the aircraft that was originally scheduled to operate your flight had to return to stand in Faro on its previous flight, due to it developing a left and right wing leak message and a left bleed fault. This rendered the aircraft unserviceable and unsafe to operate until the requisite rectification work could be completed.

 

 

 

As a consequence, your departure from Luton was unavoidably delayed. However, we did transfer passengers to the first available aircraft from within our fleet, however, this aircraft had to operate from London Gatwick and accordingly, we arranged for passengers to be transferred to Gatwick in order to take the flight. Your flight then departed at the earliest opportunity once the replacement aircraft had completed its previous flying commitments and all the passengers were in place at Gatwick in order to depart.

 

 

 

Having considered the factual background of this case, we are satisfied that the disruption was caused by an extraordinary circumstance that could not have reasonably been prevented by Monarch Airlines. We are, therefore, unable to accept your claim for compensation for the reasons given.

 

 

 

Best regards,

 

 

 

 

 

James Beahan

 

EU Claims Team

Monarch

+44 (0) 08719 40 50 40

[tc5712]

Considering sending this:

 

Thank you Hayley for your reply.

 

After taking advice I have been informed that a 'technical issue' with the aircraft does not constitute an "extraordinary circumstance" as per the European court in the Kramme v SAS case.

 

I quote "An aircraft with a technical problem cannot in all circumstances be classed as an extraordinary event. Perhaps not even in most cases".

 

I am sure that you are aware that the burden of proof is on yourselves to, beyond reasonable doubt, prove this was an "extraordinary circumstance" and merely stating the reason and not divulging what preventative measures were in place to prevent said "extraordinary circumstance" is not acceptable.

 

I await your reply.

 

Regards,

[tc5712]

Thanks Cityboy, I compiled my reply based on a search that must be outdated now. Wallentin-Hermann v Alitalia?

I presume that must be the latest test case?

 

TIA

[tc5712]

Thanks guys. Reply sent:

 

Further to your reply to my letter requesting compensation for a cancelled flight on 04/06/13, flight number ZB812, after taking advice I have been informed that a 'technical issue' with the aircraft does not constitute an "extraordinary circumstance" as per the European court in the Wallentin-Hermann v Alitalia case, (summary attached).

 

I am sure that you are aware that the burden of proof is on yourselves to, beyond reasonable doubt, prove this was an "extraordinary circumstance" and merely stating the reason and not divulging what preventative measures were in place to prevent said "extraordinary circumstance" is not acceptable.

 

Should you neither settle my claim in full for 1600 euros nor prove a valid defence to me within 14 days of the date of this letter, I reserve the right to commence legal action without further notice.

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Number of days stated in letters has never been very clear to me. Is it literally 14 days or 14 working days?

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Would welcome feedback from anyone that has been down this route. Should I expect any sort of reply within the 14 days? (Runs out Sunday).

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Well, still no response and as I said above the 14 days are up on Sunday. I suspect a reply over the weekend is unlikely.

 

Will hold fire until early next week, (won't have time to address this until Tues eve). So that will give them ample time to respond...

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Not as yet, the 14 days I stated ran out last weekend but I also contacted the CAA about 3 weeks ago and am awaiting their response before I consider my next move. (They are running at about 8 week for a response).

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did you have any joy with this...?

Not as yet, the 14 days I stated ran out last weekend but I also contacted the CAA about 3 weeks ago and am awaiting their response before I consider my next move. (They are running at about 8 week for a response).

 

BTW thought I'd give them (Monarch) a call this afternoon at about 3 just to see if there was any update and let them know I wasn't letting this lie.

Their voicemail said they are closed and they are open 9-1:30 Mon-Fri! A top priority dept, obviously!

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Hi Grigg5,

 

The reply they sent me is post #8 in this thread.

Very interesting to see their contradicting 'extraordinary circumstances' though!

 

The question is where do we go from here?

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Called Monarch today on 01582 531712, (have put in 2 claims for the Mrs & I, the identical email for the Mrs quoted an 0871 number), so that might help some ppl that don't want to call 0871 numbers?

 

Gave them my ref numb and asked if they had any update, (it's been three weeks since my last email to them quoting Wallentin-Hermann v Alitalia after their initial refusal).

 

When they said “no” I told them “well I have an update for you”, and told them about the email that Grigg5 has received regarding the same aircraft with a very different ‘extraordinary circumstance’.

 

The operator got very sheepish and promised would look into it and get back to me by the end of the day if not tomorrow (Thurs 8th Aug).

 

I will keep the pressure up and call them again tomorrow (morning of course as it’s such a priority dept it’s only staffed from 9:30 till 13:30)!

[tc5712]

Didn't call them today, got tied up.

Would be interested to know at what point ppl go via MOCL?

Monarch claim they will respond with 28 days, that runs out next weekend, (after my reply quoting Wallentin-Hermann v Alitalia).

CAA investigation states they are running at about 8 weeks, 5 weeks to go on that…

[tc5712]

Got a reply from the CAA today! It says 'We are unable to enter into further correspondence on this issue at this stage as your complaint is now with the airline for reassessment'. but have emailed them to clarify what timescale they have allocated for this 'reassessment'.

 

Quote "Dear Passenger,

 

We are writing to update you on your claim for compensation for a disrupted flight. It appears your flight falls within the scope of Regulation EC261/2004 and recent EU case law.

 

As you may be aware, compensation is subject to whether the reason for the disruption was within the airline’s control, known as ‘extraordinary circumstances’. The Civil Aviation Authority has been working with other National Enforcement Bodies across Europe to understand what ‘extraordinary circumstances’ are in relation to flight disruptions in light of the Regulation and European case law. The results of that work have been published on the European Commission website recently.

 

We have asked all airlines to reconsider against this new guidance whether compensation should be payable or not in all complaints that have been received by the CAA. We have now sent your complaint back to the airline for reassessment and they will respond to you directly following their reassessment of your flight against the new guidelines on ‘extraordinary circumstances’."

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Called them again today, no update! Grrrrr

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Seems you maybe right Cityboy. Got this just an hour ago:

 

Thank you for your further correspondence.

 

We do understand your disappointment by the outcome of your claim. We can assure you that your claim was thoroughly investigated in line with the applicable legalisation. However, as the European Commission’s (EC) have now issued guidelines regarding extraordinary circumstances we have reviewed your claim again in line with these.

 

For your reference the fault which occurred was not caused by a failure to maintain the aircraft. The component which failed is considered ‘on condition’ which refers to parts which should not require unscheduled maintenance or replacement during normal operational service. When parts such as this fail during normal operation when maintained in accordance with the relevant maintenance programme this is an unpredictable event.

 

In direct reference to the recently released EC guidelines regarding extraordinary circumstances you will note that failure of on-condition monitored parts when they have been correctly maintained in addition to any technical defect which becomes apparent immediately prior to departure or in-flight which require investigation and/or repair before the aircraft is airworthy for the intended flight are considered an extraordinary circumstance.

 

Following this review we are satisfied that our initial assessment of your claim was correct and delay compensation will not be paid.

 

For your information please find attached the link for the EC guidelines we have referred to

[tc5712]

So..... It seems instigating my own legal action if I want to pursue this is my only option.

 

I am wary though, is the pdf they sent me correct? Point 22 seems to cover their initial 'bleed air system', point 25 may refer to the alternate explanation provided to Grigg5's post referring to 'power system used to circulate air in the cabin' and then there's the clause they seem to be referring to in their latest response to me (24) 'Failure of on-condition/condition monitored parts'.

 

FYI I have replied today with:

 

Thank you for your recent email.

 

It does, however, fail to state the exact nature of the fault that you deem to be an 'extraordinary circumstance'.

 

In fact there is contradictory evidence as to which system/part is in question. (I am in receipt of an email you sent to another passenger that was booked onto ZB057, the very aircraft that would have been ZB812 stating the fault was with "the power system used to circulate air in the cabin" & not as you claim below "developing a left and right wing leak message and a left bleed fault".

 

If legal proceedings are my only option in order to resolve this then I will not hesitate to do so within 14 days.

 

I'm sure the courts will take a dim view on these contradictory explanations.

 

Yours sincerely....

[tc5712]

Ignore the pdf they have sent to you, it is a "wish-list" of items that the airlines and NEBs would like to see included as extraordinary circumstances but has no legal status whatsoever and indeed seems to contradict existing case law on extraordinary circumstances. The clue is in the word "guidance" somewhere on page 1!!

Thanks Cityboy62 that encouraging.

What would I need to submit legal action via MCOL? Up till now i've done everything online via email.

Will printouts/scans of email correspondence be acceptable by the courts?

Thanks for all your guidance so far.

 

TC

[tc5712]

Has anyone had any luck making a claim on this flight to Turkey 4th June?

I have had the same responses to my emails but was hoping someone might have made better progress.

It was such an ordeal it is a suprise there has been no compensation given

 

Thanks

 

Hi Lauren, like you I hit a brick wall so I've used a no win no fee company to take this on for me as I figure 77% of something is better than 100% of nothing.

 

I got an update from them just today and they are just awaiting a date for the court hearing.

 

As they work on a no win no fee basis I'm assuming they are confident of success.

 

I will update this thread with any further news.

 

TC

[tc5712]

Monarch now officially paying out on this flight!

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I had an email from Monarch today confirming that I would be getting a cheque in the post. I resubmitted my forms following checking back on this forum last month. Doesn't look like it will be automatically paid if you had claimed before and been rejected. Best off sending all the forms in again.400 Euros each!

 

Glad I helped, I think? Looks like I was the test case for this flight and used a NWNF company to win through.

 

Lauren123 I would advise not accepting the first offer as you should be due 8% interest per year for the two years this has been dragging on. Good luck!