Welcome Finance PPI Questionnaire

[Munirs]

Hi All

 

Today I got a reply from Welcome, from their customer relations people, and here some excerpts from it:

 

" My understanding of your complaint is that:

1. You are unhappy that a Mortgage Indemnity Fee has been applied to your loan, you have not been given any policy information.

2 You have provided your own calculations and have requested a refund of the premium plus interest totalling XXXX.

 

You settled your account in June 2007 with a cheque payment if XXXX which is over six years ago.

. Six years after the event complained of; or (if later)

. three years from the date on which you became aware( or ought reasonably to have become aware) that you had cause to complain.

 

Notwithstanding, I have provided you with your account information as follows.

"

The letter then goes on detailing the application, the sum of the loan the acceptance fee and said with the loan I had selected to purchase PPI at a premium of XXX and MIF of XXX was also applied to my account.

 

It then says " the MIF is charged to you and included in the total advance to protect you in the event of us enforcing our security. In effect, we had no alternative but to repossess and sell your property, the mortgage indemnity fee would cover the shortfall between amount received from the sale of the property and the outstanding balance of the loan. "

 

The letter then adds:

 

"My conclusions:

 

By signing your credit agreement you have confirmed that you have read and fully understood the key financial information; any questions you had should have been raised at the time of signing.

 

The MIF is not an insurance premium and therefore no policy documents were provided. This fee is non-refundable.

 

I have therefore rejected your complaint. This is my final response to your complaint. If you are not happy with my decision you may send your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service FOS."'

 

The letter includes address of FOS.

 

 

Ok, now let's review this.

 

First, I think the letter is addressing my MIF claim (clearly but just to clarify). One thing is perplexing me is that I was not aware of MIF being added to the loan and no-one explained this to me. So where it says I fully understood it, that's wrong.

 

Secondly, in regards to PPI, their staff told me in no certain terms that PPI has to be included with the application of the loan as it will help with succeeding to get approval.

 

I am definitely going to complain to FOS, unless someone here can give me strong reasons not to.

 

Any ideas ? feedbacks?

 

Also, any templates for the next stage.

 

I feel like they are testing me to see if they can get away with it...That's what I am feeling right now. Cheers all.

[dx100uk]

that's a std fob off letter that they always send

 

the FCA/FSA and the FOS are clearly down on record as saying that

'using mere speculation' that a companies processes were foolproof is NO excuse to reject a PPI complaint.

 

got read this thread and contruct a reply:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?378821-LloydsTSB-Loan-PPi&p=4120422&highlight=PPI+success#post4120422

 

and go read POSTGGJ's breakdown of WHAT MIF on welcome loans REALLY is.

 

it is NOT shortfall protect esp if you already had a mortgage.

 

dx

[Munirs]

Thanks Dx

 

So is this letter addressing the MIF and PPI too? I sent two separate claims one for each.

 

Also, the total given in their reply is the total for MIF, not PPI.

 

Anyway, I do agree having read elsewhere that giving blanket reason for a "if we had to recover the balance" as an excuse for the MIF is wishywashy at best.

 

I have read the thread from the link you supplied, DX, and specially the reply from juicy47 dated of 23rd January 2013 21:54.

 

Amazing, the u-turn these guys can sometimes make!

 

However, I also notice that in my case, the Welcome person made it clear that I should take it up with FOS as this is like they say their "final" decision.

 

Tbh, the letter that juicy47 sent is a good basis for a reply as it has elements of which that relate to our case.

 

Can I supply that? cheers for help

[dx100uk]

you are quite within you rights to reply

if that's the first fob off letter

 

again..the fos have clearly stated that companies should not 'write-off' a claimants complaint about PPI

by sending a single letter containing 'mere speculation' tht their processes were foolproof.

 

as for the MIF

 

go read up on it and use the same letter with a part regarding the MIF.

 

was this a 2nd charge on your property?

dx

[Munirs]

Thanks for the reply DX

 

"use the same letter with a part regarding the MIF"--> Ok, I shall use the template so expertly drafted by juice47, regarding MIF.

 

Can you clear up something for me. Is the letter I got from Welcome applies to my PPI and MIF applications? or just MIF?

 

The letter seem to be addressing MIF but maybe is this a standard practice to reject both, so I am confused.

 

I am tempted to call them, and see what happens.

 

Thanks Dx

[dx100uk]

they mention both so it must cover both

 

better you scan these up

rather than type your interpretation.

 

**you can post up images/letters by this method immediately..you don't need 10 posts**

.

set your default scan page size to A4 less than 300DPI [150 will do]

scan the required letters/agreements/sheets - as a picture[jpg] file

don't forget you can use a mobile phone or a digital camera too!!

'

BUT......

ENSURE: remove all pers info inc. barcodes etc

but leave all monetary figures and dates.

.

************************* ************************* *******

{DO NOT USE A BIRO OR PEN OR USE SEE THRU TAPE OR LABELS]

************************* ************************* ***********

.

DO IT IN MSPAINT.EXE or any photo editing program

goto one of the many free online pdf converter websites ...

http://freejpgtopdf.com/

..

if you have multiple scans/pics

put them in a word doc FIRST and convert that to PDF

or http://www.freepdfconvert.com/

or

use www.pdfmerge.com

 

convert existing PC files to PDF [office has an installable print to PDF option]

..

it would be better to upload a multipage pdf if

you have many images too rather than many single pdfs

.

or if you have PDF as an installed printer drive use that

or use word and save as pdf

try and logically name your file so people know what it is.

though dont use full bank names or CAG in the title

i'e Default notice DD-mm-yyyy TSB

.

open a new msg box here

hit go advanced below the msg box

hit manage attachments below that box

hit the add files button on the top right

hit select files, navigate to your file on your pc

hit upload files

...

YOU DONT have to put a link to the attachment in the msg box..just upload it ..job done

.

dx

[Munirs]

K, will upload their reply tonite as it's not with me and will follow your instructions in your last reply and post here to let you know when it's done.

 

Cheers Dx

[Munirs]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]48182[/ATTACH]

 

 

Great, I was so unwell last night,but fine now (man flu I think ) so went through all the details of your last email Dx and have attached a pdf copy.

 

Thanks a lot again for the feedbacks and the help.

[dx100uk]

on his findings:

wrong .

.mortgage limitations is 12yrs.

three years only comes into play if they have sent the FSA CCL letter

 

bowlarks to make you give up

 

did you already have a mortgage when you took this out?

 

 

 

as for the PPI

 

yep doesn't mention it as such

 

dx

[Munirs]

.mortgageicon limitations is 12yrs.

================================

 

You learn everyday! Didn't know this...So what one makes of that letter now? pile of horse manure I say!

 

three years only comes into play if they have sent the FSA CCL letter

===============================================================

 

If they have, it must have been invisible one as I honestly never received anything from them until this year, after my claim...lol

 

did you already have a mortgage when you took this out?

===================================================

 

Yes, I did. In fact, I think that The Welcome finance loan was a second secured loan on the property as I had previously another loan with GE (as well as mortgage).

 

 

Yeah, I haven't received anything from them in regards to my PPI claim, which was sent separately.

 

I notice now that the letter says that I can write back to them if I think they have made a mistake (although the tone and emphasis is on "final decision" and write to "fos"!)

 

 

I think I need to combine the template from juicy147 from that link you gave me Dx, and the fact that its 12 years and 3 years after FCL letter to make a strong reply and contest their argument.

 

Would you please point me to a template or fw chosen legal terms to add to beef up the reply.

Cheers Dx

[dx100uk]

if welcomes loan was a second charge then that invalidates the MIF anyhow too.

that postggj stuff on mif will be what you need to write.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?318323-Old-Welcome-Debt&highlight=postggj

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?318323-Old-Welcome-Debt&highlight=postggj

.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?304631-Welcome-Finance-PPI-and-Mr-Z&highlight=reclaim+MIF

.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?251405-Welcome-Secured-Loan-agreement.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?304631-Welcome-Finance-PPI-and-Mr-Z&highlight=reclaim+MIF.

.

.

As per the post above the MIF is not for insurance. Welcome have admited on more than a few occassions that it is not insurance....Never has been, never will be.

.

The real question is where does the money go? They will tell you its a fee in relation to being a higher risk, and that by charging this fee, and the interest it attracts, it helps to cover them in the event of a shortfall. They will also tell you that whilst many lenders do use the fee to purchase insurance, they never have.

.

This is not only stated in the Griffith v Welcome case, but I also have it in writing directly from them.

"The MIF is a fee that can be charged by lenders when the value of loans secured on a property is at a level similar to the value of the property.

.

It is an additional form of protection for the lender in the event that they are required to repossess the property and are unable to recover all of the monies are outstanding under an agreement (i.e. there is a shortfall).

.

In such circumstances, the lender is entitled to pursue the borrower for the shortfall.

.

As can be seen by the terms and conditions of your agreement, you were charged a MIF, which meant that should the situation described above arise you would not be pursued for any shortfall.

.

This was not an insurance policy although some lenders do take out insurance policies for this purpose.

.

It was what could be described as a 'waiver fee'. It was decided in Griffiths -v- Welcome Financial Services (2006) EWHC 3769 (QB) that the charging of the fee by a lender but not actually taking out an insurance policy was entirely reasonable."

.............

collected from some thread on here .

dx

 

The MIF has not been tested in court as far as I know, I certainly will be testing it though, its a big part of my claim against them.

 

 

Last edited by MrZ; 16th August 2011 at 19:35.

I too am uncertain of the legalities regarding the MIF. I have seen and read the threads I can find about it. I started a separate thread, which is now merged with this one specifically asking about the MIF. This is what I have been able to gather so far pertaining to the MIF.

1. Its been said that it should only be applied to mortagages or secured loans of 25,000.00 or more. (I have not seen and regulation yet that states this)

2. Its been said that it should be 75% loan to value (I have not seen any regulation that states this)

3. mortgage Indeminty Fee is a fee to be used to purchase insurance. (This is not a regulation per se, but rather an industry norm. mortgage lenders will charge this fee and then use the fee to purchase insurance to protect against a shortfall)

4. In the case of Welcome, they are not using this fee to purchase insurance. (I have yet to see any explanation from Welcome as to why they charge the fee)

5. Welcome are treating this fee as a Charge for Credit and it attracts interest at the same daily rate or AIR.

So having gathered the above information from this forum and other resources, it is my intention to write Welcome regarding only the MIF. I will not include it as part of any other complaint or claim, as I want to ensure it doesnt get "muddled over" or lost amongst other issues. I dont want to give them room to wriggle out of an explanation. I am drafting the letter today and will definitely update this thread once I have a reply.

MIF is a fee the debtor pays incase there is a shortfall on the loan

this fee is an insurance policy/product

you paid for it so ask welcome for the insurance policy.

i can tell you now there will be none

it goes into welcomes own pot under WELCOME ELITE BROKERS

YOU NEED TO BE ASKING WELCOME WHO THIS MONEY WAS PAID TO AND DEMAND PROOF VIA ANPOLICY NUMBER AND DATE AND WHO THIS FEE WAS PAID TO

ILL LAY EVEN MONEY NORWICH UNION/AVIVA

 

dx

[Munirs]

Been busy reading the links. Good grief this MIF has spawned more threads than I have ever seen any forum! Ok, lets get back to the subject matter.

 

 

if welcomes loan was a second charge then that invalidates the MIF

=============================================

 

Welcome knew fully that this was second charge and yet they applied this fee. As per the threads I have read, Welcome have previously admitted, in various court cases, that this fee they apply and call it MIF is an out and out insurance.

 

However, this is the crunch argument: they say its not an insurance, and I need to somehow prove it is, and that since this is second mortgage, why have they applied the MIF?

 

I have to formulate an argument properly based on these points and planning to call them and send a letter too.

 

Cheers for any feedbacks/comments

[dx100uk]

you quote that court case

 

pers I would not be ever talking on the phone

 

dx

[Munirs]

pers I would not be ever talking on the phone

===============================

 

That's what my instinct keep telling me...Just the frustrations pushing to call them. I'll hold fire and just post a letter with the court case added as reference. Thanks Dx

[dx100uk]

pers I thinkyou are someone that can nail welcome

 

you'll never do it on the phone for the others though.

 

you get things in writing

 

then it gets posted here

 

and others can use it.

 

I know lots that have gotten the mif back.

 

its about laying base stones for others to build upon too.

as postggj did

 

dx

[Munirs]

Dx, defo you are right

 

That's the whole reason I want to proceed cautiously and make sure I am presenting a good case. I will then publish my template too, just like juice47 had done with his.

Will draft the letter and probably get the first draft here, to get your gloss on it.

 

Together we can all get back what is due to us. Cheers.

[Munirs]

Spent whole day re-reading every thread on MIF, and it seems so much confusion mainly because WFS are labeling MIF as almost a charge, rather than the definition used in the insurance industry, including the body that represents insurers, which defines MIF (MIG) as an insurance.

 

One other aspect I have found is the fact that almost every thread has no updates on the outcome. One such example if of MrZ's case.

 

I feel I know why this might be. It seems WFS have spies on this forum, and I feel that any offer they make, might include not liaising with CAG or coming here with any updates.

 

I am right now formulating my letter. But I will be wary of WFS spies, as I don't want them to have any advantage in this.

[Munirs]

Some points I am looking to explore:

 

1. SAR the AVIVA Group in regards to information they hold on me, in relation to the MIF. This should confirm that the MIF is an insurance and that it is underwrtten just like an insurance would be. I should also be able to find out payment details from the SAR. Can anyone help me with this.

 

2. If the MIF is not insurance like the letter implies, so can WFS give an explanation on how £1300 fee enable them to recover against reclaiming £13k loan?

 

3. Is this a misrepresentation of a MIF insurance as understood by the man in the street?

 

4. MIF is a mortgage related product, but this is a secured loan. Any secured loan under 25k cannot be deemed as mortgage specially when we already had a mortage! You can only have 1 mortgage? so why MIF>?

 

I would love to know if there are any templates for the AVIVA SAR. If I get that info, they can whistle. Cheers for reading and any help.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Munirs
reason added

[Munirs]

Found this template. Don't have the insurance policy number as WFS are refusing to admit to it. Wonde can I just give them WFS account info to correlate the info and will AVIVA cooperate? . PS: Why AVIVA? apparently the wFS website made clear that WFS policies were underwritten by AVIVA.

Here's the teplate I found from another thread:

 

Your name address

 

 

To

The Data Controller or Data Compliance Officer

Insurance co

 

 

 

Date

 

 

Dear Sir or Madam

Ref Insurance policy no if you have it

DATA PROTECTION ACT 1998 Subject access requesticon

 

This Subject Data Access Request is made under sections 7, 8 & 9 of the Data

 

Protection Act 1998, and by virtue of the Data Protection (Subject Access) ( Fees and

 

Miscellaneous Provisions) Regulations 2000 ( S.I.No 191).

 

 

 

Please supply me with all data that you hold on m. This includes in particular, but is

 

not limited to, the following:-

 

1.The original signed, Insurance policy agreement and any terms and conditions that

 

applied at the time

 

2. Transcripts of all telephone conversations recorded and any notes made in relation

 

to telephone conversations by your company, to and from us or by any other party.

 

3.Where there has been any event in the account history over this period which has

 

required manual intervention by any person, I require disclosure of any indication

 

notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention.

 

4.Documents relating to any insurances added to the account, including any title

 

indemnity insurance contract terms and conditions, the date it was added and deleted

 

(if applicable).

 

5.Details of any collection charges added to the account; specifically, the date it was

 

levied, a detailed financial breakdown of how the charge was calculated, and what the

 

charge covers.

 

6.Specific details of the fees/charges levied by any other agency in respect of this

 

account and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates

 

to and on what date said charges were levied.

 

7.A genuine copy of any notice of fair use of my data as required by the Data

 

Protection Act 1998 and any consent that I/we may have given to those uses and the

 

Data Controllers Licence Number issued by the Infornmation Commissioner to

 

Insurance Co

 

8.The number of the CCA licence issued to Insurance companies name

 

 

9.A list of third parties to whom you have disclosed my/our personal dataicon

 

including Credit Reference Agencies and, a summary of the nature of the information

 

you have disclosed, the reason for this disclosure.

 

 

10.Copies of any statements of account for the agreement from its inception, not a

 

record of payments

 

11.Where any previous information or records held have been deleted or disposed of,

 

the methods used to do so, including dates, certificates or references confirming

 

details of destruction. Where you are unable to provide such certificates, lease

 

provide a declaration signed by an authorised officer of your company, confirming

 

the dates and methods of destruction of this data, and the reason for the destruction.

 

12. Full hard copy print outs of my/our personal and financial information, held in a

 

digital, magnetic or any other format which is held in any archives, backups or other

 

storage systems/devices/locations.

 

12.Full copies of transcripts of any correspondence in postal, e-mail or any other

 

format which you have entered into with any individual, organisation or third party

 

which contains my personal or financial, or which pertains to me.

 

13.Details of any third parties which have an interesticon in our account/policy.

 

14Any other information that you hold with regards to me/us and/or our account.

 

15.A complete list of all transactions or statements relating to all account and

 

applications made by me/us to and with your organisation.

 

16.A copy of the underwriting sheet confirming the amount of commission that has

 

been paid on any and all agreements entered into by me with name the lender

 

agent/broker

 

 

Enclosed is the statutory maximum fee for this request of £10.

You have 40 days in which to comply. If there is specific information which you

 

require in order to satisfy yourself as to my identity please let me know by return.

 

However please note that the above address is the one which has been used to make

 

any and all communications with me with regards to my account information from you

 

which has been hitherto found acceptable.

 

IF YOU ARE UNABLE TO DEAL WITH THIS REQUEST, YOU SHOULD IMMEDIATELY

 

FORWARD IT TO THE PERSON WITHIN YOUR ORGANISTAION REPONSIBLE FOR

 

DATA PROTECTION COMPLIANCE.

 

Yours sincerely

[dx100uk]

if you hit SAR

 

that's the template.

 

you don't specifically need any numbers

 

its ALL the data they hold on YOU.

 

however if you doindicate numbers etc

[and they are well used to welcome stuff]

 

then make sure you include old addresses

and an additional line that state the requested data is not just limited to that data

 

you want all data.

 

dx

[Munirs]

Hi Dx,

 

Thanks for the heads up.

 

D you know the address to send SAR to. This is what I got from their site but its only for general enquiries:

 

Aviva

PO Box 4

Surrey Street

Norwich

NR1 3NG

 

Cheers

[Munirs]

Om a separate note, what has happened to my PPI claim?

[dx100uk]

Head Office

Aviva plc

St Helen's

1 Undershaft

London

EC3P 3DQ

United Kingdom

[dx100uk]

on the PPI front

 

I suspect they are sending sep cover?

 

dx

[Munirs]

I suspect they are sending sep cover?

=======================

 

Yeah sep bs me thinks another no on the way....

 

Thanks for the address, Hoping this Aviva things works out.