Gross Misconduct

[renegadeimp]

Did your colleague do EXACTLY the same thing though. Each case is considered on its own merits, although there should be an over-riding principle of fairness in any disciplinary action. They cannot give one person a slap on the wrist, and the next person that does the same exact thing gets dismissed. The ONLY time they could do that is if the Disciplinary procedures or code of conduct changes between the GM violations.

[altobelli]

Broadly speaking yes, but it can depend on any circumstances which differed in each case, such as length of service, etc. For example, an employer can treat a junior employee more favourably, based on the fact that a more senior employee should have known better, or they can treat a junior employee more severely, based on the fact that they are more dispensible to the business. As long as procedures are followed and there is some reasonable logic followed in reaching a decision, both courses of action can be legal. Sorry, not fully answering your question, but while consistency should be at the heart of any decision, underlying factors may also be taken into account which means that a decision is reached which would be legal but not appear to be consistent.

[leedspete]

I have asked her and the gmcd was EXACTLY the same as mine which was aspect abuse,not taking claims and blind transferring calls.Also as my meeting was adjourned do they have to send me a letter inviting me back in and does it have to be 3 working days before the meeting that i get the letter

[altobelli]

The allegation may be the same, but other factors should also be taken into account, e.g. length of service, any previous disciplinary history, were procedures communicated more fully after the previous incident with any warnings that breaches might be regarded as gross misconduct, etc.

[leedspete]

She was suspended at the same time as me for the same reason as there were more than just me doing this incident

[altobelli]

Then it would appear that you should receive the same treatment, although it depends whether the employer brings up any differentiating factors.

 

Additionally, you raise the issue of potential discrimination were you to be treated more severely.

[Emmzzi]

pete, you seem to be looking for us to give you some kind of a promise or reassurance.

 

Without knowing your work record, we can't. But we will cross our fingers for you!

[leedspete]

I am not after reassurance or any promises,im sorry if you think that (exemplary work record before this).But i feel, myself ,that they cant do any worse to me and i had a excellent union rep who ripped their procedures to shreds.But the other question is do they have to send me a letter to give me the decision because the first meeting was adjourned.They did say in the meeting to pencil it in for next Thursday but i haven't received anything confirming this

[assisted blonde]

Personally if more than one person has been suspended for exactly the same thing and others have ended up with a warning then I would be asking them what they said did they apologise etc etc rather than looking at whether the employer has done somthing wrong if I wanted to give myself the best chance of staying in a job.

[altobelli]

But the employer should follow fair procedures. If they don't, and simply rely on the employee crawling into the meeting begging forgiveness in the hope they won't get fired, this could be viewed as bullying.

[Emmzzi]

how many times do we have to go through reasonable apology for ballsup not equalling grovelling like a worm? THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. Do you never, ever say sorry when you do something wrong?

[altobelli]

Of course, but an apology should either be heartfelt or suggested after a thorough review by a neutral party, otherwise it means nothing.

 

Suggesting that someone apologise out of deference to an employer just to save their job is bullying, it is nothing more than 21st century forelock tugging.

[assisted blonde]

TBH if it is likely to save their job why not, you can always have your fingers crossed so it dosent count

[altobelli]

Yes, or tell them after the disciplinary is over that you didn't really mean it!

 

But seriously, I think its wrong where an employer attempts to frighten someone in to making an apology to save their job, its abuse of power. If a problem is discussed informally, definitely an apology can be a good way to move on, but when the matter becomes formal and the employer expects an apology as a form of deference, I think its unfair. If you think about it, a manager may behave in an appalling way, perhaps be rascist or sexist towards staff, then for some reason raise a grievance about the staff member because they don't like them. If the staff member is then expected to apologise to the manager this can't be right, its just a way of trying to exercise power over people.

[assisted blonde]

No but if you have done somthing wrong an apology cant hurt, dont really think an employer expecting an apology is an abuse of power or a formof deference though, think thats a bit strong, its like the word bullying it gets over used and ends up meaning very little. having said that there are ways of apologising you dont actually have to say i am sorry grovel grovel etc etc and if you have done nothing wrong at all dont apologise just for the sake of it.

[altobelli]

I agree to an extent, if their is wrongdoing or someone who looks at the situation impartially feels you are in the wrong then you should apologise. But you shouldn't apologise if you haven't done anything wrong, or don't think you have. Regardless of the employer's view.

 

Bullying is using power, or perceived power, over other people to attack them, degrade them or influence their actions. An employee being put in a position where they're expected to apologise even if they don't feel the need in order to keep their job would be an example of bullying. It is deferential and it can do harm - the manager's ego could well spiral out of control and it might make any future bullying that much worse. It would be like handing over an apple to the school bully in the playground to avoid a hiding - its not a good idea.

[leedspete]

Well i have been dismissed for gmcd but i am going to appeal as i feel that they have not acted fairly or consistently.My rep who went with also feels that they didn't.

[altobelli]

Did they give any reason as to why you were treated more harshly than your colleague?

[leedspete]

They didn't even say that there was anyone else involved in the disciplinary but at the fact finding they said that i wasn't the only one involved in this.So,no they didn't say why they had treated me more harshly

[altobelli]

Try and find out before the appeal why the treatment differed - your union rep may be able to help you with this.

[leedspete]

I am just waiting for letter to appear before i appeal.I have asked the other person and she has said that she gave good reasons and explanations.

[altobelli]

Ok, can you think of any reasons why the employer may have handed out different measures - seniority, any prior issues, anything like that? How do you feel the meeting went aside from the outcome - do you feel you got the points you were trying to make across?

[leedspete]

There were no prior instances,the other person had been there longer but doing same job as me. The union rep who went with feels that they used the adjournment to find ways to sack me not to investigate the points that we put across

[Emmzzi]

And in the meeting did you leave them confident that you understood why the actions were wrong and that you would not do them again? As opposed to arguing the toss.

[altobelli]

OP is right to go into the meeting and make his points though. If he crawls in on his hands and knees he loses credibility. The important thing here is to establish why he was treated differently from his colleague.