Contravention 31 coming out a yellow box

[rippedofflondon]

I just received this from tfl and definitely wouldn't have entered the yellow box if I knew I would have to stop in it. Obviously the flow of traffic was moving when I entered it but stopped as I was just coming out of it. I hope this pic uploads but it clearly shows this isn't fair. If I had stopped in the middle of it fair enough I would pay it but not this. Any advice please?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]41356[/ATTACH]

[sailor sam]

Hi and welcome to CAG.

 

Which vehicle are you? Seems that there is only a single lane on the exit side so where did the other vehicle come from?

[rippedofflondon]

Hi and thank you. I'm the van, tried to edit but not had 10 posts yet. There's 2 lanes which become a bus lane after the box. The vehicle on my left is trying to get into the bus lane, think he must be a taxi and he's come from behind. Lots of people undertake to get through the lights and queue jump after the box before the bus lane. I don't remember this incident I drive about 5 hours every day but looks as though I've stopped to give way to an undercutter.

[rippedofflondon]

*1 which becomes a bus lane after the box (the lane on the left obvs) I know what I mean lol

[crem]

are they allowed to start a bus lane so close to the junction exit?

[sailor sam]

Would need to see the layout/signage. Can you give us the location so we can check street view?

[rippedofflondon]

Would need to see the layout/signage. Can you give us the location so we can check street view?

 

sure it's battersea bridge rd/westbridge rd/parkgate rd. London

[sailor sam]

Ok, well there is no advanced warning sign for the bus lane which I think will count for something. The bus lane is clearly restricting the exit to the BJ because of the confusion of 'where to go' to avoid it. In effect you have 2 possible lanes to enter the BJ but only one lane on the exit side because of the start of the bus lane. So the two are kind of in conflict with each other which surely is wrong and no doubt catches quite a few drivers out every day. Having said that, the contravention is stopping within the box due to entering the while your exit route being blocked. So it could be argued that the presence of the bus lane would be irrelevant to the offence. But the fact that there is only one available lane on the exit side when there are two lanes on the approach side, should cover that argument.

This link may also help; http://www.ticketfighter.co.uk/yellow.htm

 

My advice is to appeal on the basis your exit was impeded by the presence of the bus lane immediately after the junction. No doubt the appeal will be rejected so you may have to get an adjudicator to decide. Tis a very grey one IMHO.

 

EDIT: Having looked at your pic again, it would appear that the black car has just turned from the right and has almost had to mount the pavement to clear the box. Presumably you have entered form the right hand lane on approach on the other side of the junction (going straight across) so you would of already been there before the black car. Thus the car has made a more blatant contravention than you have. But I am only guessing that from the position of the black car in the image.

Edited February 6, 2013 by sailor sam

[rippedofflondon]

Thanks for that link. It says on there that if something mustn't impede my exit such as the bus lane or a vehicle changing lanes. If you re look at my pic then the landrover infront of me is moving from the left to the right. If you rewind in your mind that pic and see the road ahead of me then there is clearly an exit as the landrover is on the left and the impedance wasn't calculated. I still maintain that I wouldn't enter a yellow box if I didn't think the flow of traffic would allow me to clear it. Do you think I should go for the fact that my exit was clear on entry into the box and was impeded on exit? I guess I should use as little wording as possible and be straight to the point in my appeal.

[rippedofflondon]

This is crazy. On the patas site case 2100446400 where the appeal was ALLOWED. It's exactly the SAME location as my apparent contravention! I thought I was reading my details when I was reading the decision...

The authority's case is that the Appellant's vehicle was stopped in the box junction when prohibited when in Battersea Bridge Road/Westbridge Road/Parkgate Road on 2 July 2010 at 13,41.

 

The Appellant denies the contravention.

 

I have considered the evidence and watched the DVD footage a number of times and I have decided that this penalty charge notice cannot be upheld for a number of reasons:

 

First, I find, that when the Appellant's vehicle entered the box junction her exit was clear.

 

Second, that the black vehicle to the right of the Appellant's vehicle was drifting across the Appellant's path.

 

Third, whilst the Appellant's car undoubtedly did come partially to a halt for 7 seconds within the box junction, the DVD footage shows that at the point when the vehicle entered the marked area, there appeared to be sufficient room available beyond the markings to allow his vehicle to pass through the junction without stopping.

 

Four, I find that, although the Appellant's vehicle stopped, it did not do so "due to the presence of stationary vehicles" but due to the vehicle to his right moving in his direction.

 

Five, the commencement of a bus lane on the other side of the box junction also contributed to this incident because it appears to cause two lanes of traffic to have to enter one.

 

Taking all these matters together I find that this appeal must be allowed.

 

Surely I can quote this case and if they allowed it for those reasons before then they should allow it again?

[sailor sam]

I see no reason why you shouldn't make reference to it by indicating the case number. It seems btw, that the case you have found more or less succeeded on the points I made in my previous post.

[rippedofflondon]

Cheers sailor sam. If it wasn't for you, I wouldn't have found the case mate. You gave me a link to that ticket fighters website and the case number is immediately on that page i just copied and pasted it onto patas and it came straight up, literally no effort. What gets me is that the judge says that the problem is with the bus lane and traffic having to merge 2 lanes into one and yet they are still issuing tickets where poor unsuspecting folk don't want the hassle and just pay it. I've booked my appointment to view the cctv footage in croydon this coming tuesday. Not even going to pay the £10 for the DVD, they're not getting a penny out of me. Thanks again, if it weren't for people like you I wouldn't have these resources now and definitely a strong arguement with the lack of warning signs of a bus lane, the impedance of the bus lane and merging traffic blocking my path causing me to stop wheras on entry to the box I had a clear exit. Cheers. I don't think I should make my appeal until after I've viewed the cctv footage. I shall be using the judge's wording for granting the appeal to fight my own appeal. The pcn section on tfl webite is hard to find, I had to type it in the search and then the details of the cost of a pcn is WRONG, it says £120 discount £60 when it should be, according to my pcn, £130 discount £65! Going to write to Boris Johnson about this and my MP, they've messed with the wrong dude.

[sailor sam]

Please let us know how you get on.

[rippedofflondon]

Please let us know how you get on.

i most certainly will do sam. My appointment to view the cctv footage is on Tuesday afternoon. It's during work time as the incident happened in a company vehicle during work's time; so not wasting my own time doing this otherwise I may have just aswell paid £10 for the DVD as it'll take longer than the rate of an hour's work going to view the footage. I'm wondering if I need the video for the appeals tribunal if I want to prove that my exit was clear upon entry into the box. Or does TFL have to provide that there? I'm speaking as if my first appeal will be rejected and wonder how many first appeals are actually granted? If I lose the appeal tribunal do I have to pay the full £130 or am I still entitled to the discount owing to the fact I did originally respond to them within 14 days?

[Michael Browne]

The video will form part of TfL's evidence at adjudication. If you lose the full £130 penalty is due

[sailor sam]

The video will form part of TfL's evidence at adjudication. If you lose the full £130 penalty is due

 

Well we have found a previous case for the same location Michael where the adjudicator upheld the appeal for exactly the points made above. So the OP surely should win.