got caught with a fake train pass **GOT OOC Settlement**

[shiney123]

Hi,

I know I am an idiot so please dont mention it again

I just need some immediate answer.

 

I travel to birmingham newstreet from coventry and needed a pass.

 

My friend told he ll get the £22 two week pass for just £15.

So I gave him my pass ID and told him to get me one.

He bought it for me and I paid for him.

 

But in newstreet the inspector told my pass is fake and had the date just pasted on it from another pass.

So I told him where I got it and all.

 

took my name, address and DOB. another man came and questioned me and told it is a caution.

 

They also took the details of the man from whom I got the ticket.

 

In my panic I lied to them that I was from london and dont know anything here so I bought the ticket from someone but not from the counter.

 

I pleaded to them that I ll pay any fine or whatever.

But they told I ll receive a letter.

 

I got the letter on 10th saying :

 

Date

My Name

On *** aug 2012 a person giving the above name and address was questioned by a member of staff with regard to an alleged incident on London Midland Railway.

This matter has been provisionally authorised for prosecution.

 

Before I proceed further, I invite you to respond by completing in full the bottom section of this letter,

making any comments about the incident on the reverse, and send it to the above address within seven days.

 

Failure to respond will lead to the matter being progressed without further notification.

 

I am then aske to provide my name, adress, whether I wa the person that travelled, phone number, occupation and NI number.

 

I had to post the letter by tomorrow. I dnt want to go get a criminal record as I am a student.

I thinking to write back pleading guilty and stating I would like to settle out of court by paying whatever fine

and the costs incurred. Is there any chance this will work and can be settled out of court?

 

should i write to them directly that I would like to settle out of court?

If it goes to court should I go for prison? will I definitely get a criminal record?

I am working part time for tesco now will I lose my job?

P.S: This is my first time.

[rebel11]

Hi shiney

 

Welcome to CAG

 

The guys will be happy to advise as soon as they are available. Try not to worry, easier said then done.

 

Please let us know how your problem has been resolved, it could help fellow Caggers.

 

Thread has been moved to the correct forum.

[honeybee13]

Hi, I know I am an idiot so please dont mention it again I just need some immediate answer. I travel to birmingham newstreet from coventry and needed a pass. My friend told he ll get the 22£ two week pass for just 15£. So I gave him my pass ID and told him to get me one. He bought it for me and I paid for him. But in newstreet the inspector told my pass is fake and had the date just pasted on it from another pass. So I told him where I got it and all. He took my name, address and DOB. another man came and questioned me and told it is a caution. They also took the details of the man from whom I got the ticket. In my panic I lied to them that I was from london and dont know anything here so I bought the ticket from someone but not from the counter. I pleaded to them that I ll pay any fine or whatever. But they told I ll receive a letter. I got the letter on 10th saying :

 

Date

My Name

On *** aug 2012 a person giving the above name and address was questioned by a member of staff with regard to an alleged incident on London Midland Railway. This matter has been provisionally authorised for prosecution.

 

Before I proceed further, I invite you to respond by completing in full the bottom section of this letter, making any comments about the incident on the reverse, and send it to the above address within seven days.

 

Failure to respond will lead to the matter being progressed without further notification.

 

I am then aske to provide my name, adress, whether I wa the person that travelled, phone number, occupation and NI number.

 

I had to post the letter by tomorrow. I dnt want to go get a criminal record as I am a student. I thinking to write back pleading guilty and stating I would like to settle out of court by paying whatever fine and the costs incurred. Is there any chance this will work and can be settled out of court? should i write to them directly that I would like to settle out of court?

If it goes to court should I go for prison? will I definitely get a criminal record?

I am working part time for tesco now will I lose my job?

P.S: This is my first time.

 

Hello there.

 

With luck the guys will see your thread this evening, but it doesn't give them very long to help you.

 

From what I have read on the forum, this letter is not about pleading guilty or not guilty, that is what you do in a court of law. You're writing to the rail company.

 

What London Midland are asking is for you to provide your side of the story and you should tell them the truth about what happened. Depending on what you say, they will decide whether to prosecute or not.

 

What I'm not sure about and hopefully the guys will tell you, is whether you offer to settle out of court in your reply. This is London Midland's choice and not yours in any case.

 

If it goes to court, I doubt whether you will go to prison, unless you have committed other offences to do with rail tickets. And any criminal record will probably depend on what offence they prosecute you for, if they prosecute.

 

It's difficult to say how this might affect your job. What do your terms of employment say please?

 

My best, HB

[shiney123]

Hi, Thank you. So should I mention in my reply I want to settle out of court?

[dx100uk]

just plead/grovell / beg

 

sincerely say you are sorry for the stupid mistake

and that you were short of money and got spoofed.

 

offer to pay all fines and costs.

 

 

 

you should be ok

but each case is diff

 

dont waffle and dont lie

 

dx

[firstclassx]

You might find that they will only help you "settle" if you provide details of this "friend"... you aren't presumably going to admit to "altering" the pass yourself, are you?

 

For more basic fare evasion then I would certainly recommend an apology and generous out of court settlement, but you need to be careful here.

 

If your "friend" has done this before for other people, and they've been caught, then there may ultimately be police involvement.

 

I'm not sure admitting anything here is a good idea. You are signing a confession letter to a fairly serious offence.

 

If you do make them an out of court settlement, I would recommend working out the following:

 

Cost of 14 "peak" return tickets for wherever you were travelling between, and then an additional £100 Costs. Sent by recorded post. However, you'll have to write some sort of letter justifying them not taking you to court. I've never ever read a convincing reason for use of a forged pass. I always read in the letters how it was their "friend", however when I ask for details, they can never remember, or give me false info - ALWAYS. If they get you to court, they will still get a decent amount of compensation.

 

The standard legislation doesn't (shouldn't) really apply here IMO. If I was the prosecuting authority, I usually speak to BTP and push for Section 3 Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981. The penalties are much more "real" and fulfill the "deterrent" which I seek to create. (Penalties include unlimited fine, prison, both).

 

This is happening too frequently within our industry. At least some people have the "sense" to take the risk with a £5k annual 1st class season rather than a £30 weekly. The courts usually sentence the same.

Edited August 16, 2012 by firstclassx

[Old-CodJA]

From what I have read on the forum, this letter is not about pleading guilty or not guilty, that is what you do in a court of law. You're writing to the rail company.

 

What London Midland are asking is for you to provide your side of the story and you should tell them the truth about what happened. Depending on what you say, they will decide whether to prosecute or not.

 

 

Excellent advice in my opinion.

 

Without pre-judging on a one-sided version of events I'd consider what has actually occurred as might be viewed by a Magistrate. The OP has admitted to an offence, but on the strength of the evidence posted thus far, the only admission is that of 'buying a ticket from an unauthorised source contrary National Railway Byelaw 21 [2005]'.

 

Unlike 'firstclassx', in over 30 years of involvement with these issues I have actually read a convincing argument for using a forged pass and so have the Courts, but it is not our role here to provide a defence for an act that might be charged as a very serious criminal offence and I shall not go into detail for that reason. I will provide the explanation to the site team for verification if anyone feels it is necessary.

 

Give the TOC a full and frank explanation of what happened and see what they have to say before trying to guess their response.

[rebel11]

Hi Old-CodJA

 

Please do. Would be interesting. Thanks.

 

Excellent advice in my opinion.

 

Without pre-judging on a one-sided version of events I'd consider what has actually occurred as might be viewed by a Magistrate. The OP has admitted to an offence, but on the strength of the evidence posted thus far, the only admission is that of 'buying a ticket from an unauthorised source contrary National Railway Byelaw 21 [2005]'.

 

Unlike 'firstclassx', in over 30 years of involvement with these issues I have actually read a convincing argument for using a forged pass and so have the Courts, but it is not our role here to provide a defence for an act that might be charged as a very serious criminal offence and I shall not go into detail for that reason. I will provide the explanation to the site team for verification if anyone feels it is necessary.

Give the TOC a full and frank explanation of what happened and see what they have to say before trying to guess their response.

[rebel11]

Hi shiney

 

You could visit a CAB, if your not sure how to proceed in this matter.

[firstclassx]

Excellent advice in my opinion.

 

Without pre-judging on a one-sided version of events I'd consider what has actually occurred as might be viewed by a Magistrate. The OP has admitted to an offence, but on the strength of the evidence posted thus far, the only admission is that of 'buying a ticket from an unauthorised source contrary National Railway Byelaw 21 [2005]'.

 

I think his "admission" could be equally applicable to Section 6 Fraud Act 2006.

 

Excuses I've had range from "lost my original so used a back up copy" and "my child made it for me", with the former being the most common.

[MrBurns]

should i write to them directly that I would like to settle out of court?

If it goes to court should I go for prison? will I definitely get a criminal record?

I am working part time for tesco now will I lose my job?

P.S: This is my first time.

 

I don't have any train fare-dodging experience but from a general criminal law perspective: 1) I don't see any need to give them your phone number, occupation or NI number and 2) you don't even know what law they're thinking of prosecuting you under so you don't know what you'd be 'pleading guilty' to.

 

Conversely, you're probably guilty of something so write back with a grovelling letter saying you're really sorry, but without saying what you're sorry for. Also ask if you can settle out of court. That way you're appearing to be cooperative but you're not strengthening their hand with a confession or further information. Their reply might also then state what they're thinking of prosecuting you under which would give you more to arm yourself with.

 

Also, if they do decide to prosecute you, you should get yourself a criminal solicitor.

[rebel11]

Good post.

 

I don't have any train fare-dodging experience but from a general criminal law perspective: 1) I don't see any need to give them your phone number, occupation or NI number and 2) you don't even know what law they're thinking of prosecuting you under so you don't know what you'd be 'pleading guilty' to.

 

Conversely, you're probably guilty of something so write back with a grovelling letter saying you're really sorry, but without saying what you're sorry for. Also ask if you can settle out of court. That way you're appearing to be cooperative but you're not strengthening their hand with a confession or further information. Their reply might also then state what they're thinking of prosecuting you under which would give you more to arm yourself with.

 

Also, if they do decide to prosecute you, you should get yourself a criminal solicitor.

[Old-CodJA]

I think his "admission" could be equally applicable to Section 6 Fraud Act 2006.

 

Excuses I've had range from "lost my original so used a back up copy" and "my child made it for me", with the former being the most common.

 

I have frequently heard it said by very experienced inspectors "If I heard a 'new' excuse I would let them off". 'New' excuses are incredibly rare in my pretty long experience, mind you, there's nothing truer than the old saying 'never say never'. I might get a report drop on my desk for assessment tomorrow that contains a new one. I'll let you know.

 

Whilst there are a whole host of legislations that might be considered, it is always worth remembering exactly what the Home Office code for prosecutors provided for CPS says about these matters, virtually all of which refer back to the Section 5 RRA [1889) charge as being most appropriate in most cases.

 

There is a problem with referring minor offences for action under legislation designed to deal with much more serious matters, for although the offence of fare evasion is serious enough to warrant a recordable conviction, it is a minor matter in the scheme of criminal activity. Where a high value fraud or mass forgery is concerned, the use of more powerful legislation is of course correct.

 

Putting these 'one-off' offences forward for action under legislations such as the Forgery & Counterfeiting Act [1981] or The Fraud Act [2006] and others such as the Theft Acts means that they become 'either or matters'. Cases where the defendant may elect for trial by Jury and invariably such matters as altering a rail ticket fall well short of the level of offence that CPS will run with. The Crown Courts are busy places and time is very much at a premium. The result being that the case will not make it to Court and will probably get dealt with by way of Police Caution at best.

 

Rail Company employees may present cases in the Magistrates Courts, but very few TOCs Company Prosecutors have a right of audience in the Crown Court and the TOCs will have to engage appropriate and costly representation. Legislations that carry the penalties that you refer to, such as lengthy prison terms, are not meant to clog the Crown Courts with cases of Mr X changing the date on a weekly ticket, but are designed to deal with bulk forging such as banknotes, passports, licences and the like, or other high value items.

 

Perfectly adequate legislations exist to allow for summary charges to be brought before the Magistrates in such cases as altering tickets and other examples of fare evasion.

 

Looking at the OPs post, s/he has admitted buying a ticket from a 'friend'. That's an unauthorised source and a breach of National Railway Byelaw 21 [2005] can be alleged.

 

I don't see any conclusive evidence of any other admission.

 

The OP says "In my panic I lied to them that I was from london and dont know anything here so I bought the ticket from someone but not from the counter."

 

There is no chargeable offence of 'pretending to come from London' so far as I am aware. The OP clearly gave a correct name and address because s/he has received a letter from the TOC, so no false details were given.

 

The OP admits to using the ticket, but does not admit to doing so knowing that it was a forgery.

 

There is a strict liability offence of "knowingly using a ticket, which has been altered in any way" in breach of Byelaw 20(1).

 

In order to secure a conviction in a charge where criminal intent is alleged, it is up to the prosecution to prove, beyond reasonable doubt to the satisfaction of the Court that the OP knew s/he was using a forged ticket with the intention of gaining a benefit. There is no admission to that effect in the OPs post.

 

For the OP, I repeat what I have previously said in such cases, I would answer the letter truthfully. If you genuinely paid someone else to get you a ticket and have given the company correct details in that respect, you may still receive a Summons, but at this stage you should not tell the TOC anything that they don't already know.

 

If you do receive a Summons, I suggest that you should seek professional legal advice before attempting to deal with this yourself.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Old-CodJA

[shiney123]

Thank you soo much for the time and advice. Its helped me soo much.

I sent a reply to them today. I profusely apologized and pleaded them to accept my apologizes for my actions. i also requested them to consider out of court settlement request. I said i ll pay what ever fine and all the costs incurred. I said I am ashamed and stressed for doing such a thing.

now waiting for the reply praying it will be positive. Tensed alot though. What a stupid thing I have done..

[shiney123]

hello firstclassx,

I have already given them the friends name and address. I can give it again if they need it. But I think they dont need it again as he said he received a letter as well.

[dx100uk]

you'll be ok

 

dx

[shiney123]

Hi Old-CodJA,

Thank you soo much for the advice. Ya I have given them all the details about who sold me the ticket. but I cant prove it.. now this is my biggest concern. the only proof I have of this is that I have made the payment with my bank a/c from which I have transferred the person money for the pass. So what should I do if he denies it?

I am a student and cannot afford going for a criminal lawyer. So I am really hoping they will go for out of court settlement but not sure. very much stressed and tensed I ll go to jail and get a criminal record which ruins my studies.. :'(

[firstclassx]

I suspect you'll manage an out of court settlement if you co-operated, but I very much doubt the same will apply for your friend.

 

Also a very good post there from OldCodja above... even gave me a few things to consider...

[rebel11]

Yep interesting and good post.

 

I have frequently heard it said by very experienced inspectors "If I heard a 'new' excuse I would let them off". 'New' excuses are incredibly rare in my pretty long experience, mind you, there's nothing truer than the old saying 'never say never'. I might get a report drop on my desk for assessment tomorrow that contains a new one. I'll let you know.

 

Whilst there are a whole host of legislations that might be considered, it is always worth remembering exactly what the Home Office code for prosecutors provided for CPS says about these matters, virtually all of which refer back to the Section 5 RRA [1889) charge as being most appropriate in most cases.

 

There is a problem with referring minor offences for action under legislation designed to deal with much more serious matters, for although the offence of fare evasion is serious enough to warrant a recordable conviction, it is a minor matter in the scheme of criminal activity. Where a high value fraud or mass forgery is concerned, the use of more powerful legislation is of course correct.

 

Putting these 'one-off' offences forward for action under legislations such as the Forgery & Counterfeiting Act [1981] or The Fraud Act [2006] and others such as the Theft Acts means that they become 'either or matters'. Cases where the defendant may elect for trial by Jury and invariably such matters as altering a rail ticket fall well short of the level of offence that CPS will run with. The Crown Courts are busy places and time is very much at a premium. The result being that the case will not make it to Court and will probably get dealt with by way of Police Caution at best.

 

Rail Company employees may present cases in the Magistrates Courts, but very few TOCs Company Prosecutors have a right of audience in the Crown Court and the TOCs will have to engage appropriate and costly representation. Legislations that carry the penalties that you refer to, such as lengthy prison terms, are not meant to clog the Crown Courts with cases of Mr X changing the date on a weekly ticket, but are designed to deal with bulk forging such as banknotes, passports, licences and the like, or other high value items.

 

Perfectly adequate legislations exist to allow for summary charges to be brought before the Magistrates in such cases as altering tickets and other examples of fare evasion.

 

Looking at the OPs post, s/he has admitted buying a ticket from a 'friend'. That's an unauthorised source and a breach of National Railway Byelaw 21 [2005] can be alleged.

 

I don't see any conclusive evidence of any other admission.

 

The OP says "In my panic I lied to them that I was from london and dont know anything here so I bought the ticket from someone but not from the counter."

 

There is no chargeable offence of 'pretending to come from London' so far as I am aware. The OP clearly gave a correct name and address because s/he has received a letter from the TOC, so no false details were given.

 

The OP admits to using the ticket, but does not admit to doing so knowing that it was a forgery.

 

There is a strict liability offence of "knowingly using a ticket, which has been altered in any way" in breach of Byelaw 20(1).

 

In order to secure a conviction in a charge where criminal intent is alleged, it is up to the prosecution to prove, beyond reasonable doubt to the satisfaction of the Court that the OP knew s/he was using a forged ticket with the intention of gaining a benefit. There is no admission to that effect in the OPs post.

 

For the OP, I repeat what I have previously said in such cases, I would answer the letter truthfully. If you genuinely paid someone else to get you a ticket and have given the company correct details in that respect, you may still receive a Summons, but at this stage you should not tell the TOC anything that they don't already know.

 

If you do receive a Summons, I suggest that you should seek professional legal advice before attempting to deal with this yourself.

[shiney123]

Thank you for the reply.

I am will cooperate with them.

The guy who made the ticket got a letter as well but he just RTS ed it and he says I should have done the same. But I dont feel that is correct as I dont want to cheat just for 20£. Will that be a problem for me as he had RTS ed it? What should I do now?

[firstclassx]

Thank you for the reply.

I am will cooperate with them.

The guy who made the ticket got a letter as well but he just RTS ed it and he says I should have done the same. But I dont feel that is correct as I dont want to cheat just for 20£. Will that be a problem for me as he had RTS ed it? What should I do now?

 

London Midland may inform British Transport Police, who may visit your friends address.

 

Your friend certainly hasn't done you any favours by returning the letter to the sender.

 

Just have to sit tight and wait.

[shiney123]

Hi all,

I got a letter today saying that as i have replied honestly they have considered the matter and told me to pay a fine of 350£. I have to pay it in 14 days. I called them and requested I ll be paying on 7th september when I get the pay. They agreed to that. Thats nice and I think the fine is fair enough for being such a stupid.

Thank you all for your support. It really helped a lot in replying for the letter.

[rebel11]

It might be an idea to get that in writing.

 

Hi all,

I got a letter today saying that as i have replied honestly they have considered the matter and told me to pay a fine of 350£. I have to pay it in 14 days. I called them and requested I ll be paying on 7th september when I get the pay. They agreed to that. Thats nice and I think the fine is fair enough for being such a stupid.

Thank you all for your support. It really helped a lot in replying for the letter.

[firstclassx]

Make sure you:

 

1) Get written confirmation from them;

2) Send the payment using a "tracked" method, e.g. Postal Order/Cheque

3) Send the letter using recorded delivery so you get peace of mind they've received it;

4) Don't do anything so silly again in the future! Get your mate to refund you 50%!

[Old-CodJA]

Hi all,

I got a letter today saying that as i have replied honestly they have considered the matter and told me to pay a fine of 350£. I have to pay it in 14 days. I called them and requested I ll be paying on 7th september when I get the pay. They agreed to that. Thats nice and I think the fine is fair enough for being such a stupid.

Thank you all for your support. It really helped a lot in replying for the letter.

 

They will probably have a facility for you to pay over the telephone using a credit/debit card.

 

By the way, this is not a fine, only a Court has the authority to impose a fine. It is an 'agreed administrative disposal'.

 

It might only seem semantics, but the reality is that if you are asked to declare whether you have ever been fined in future, unless you have been to Court for something else, the correct answer is "No".

 

Well done.