Council Tax Bailiff, warrant of arrest

[Grandprix]

Hi

Out of the blue today, a bailiff from the council knocked on my door.

He said he had a warrant for my arrest over non payment of council tax.

 

i refused to let him in as I was on my way to work.

 

Here's the story,

 

He said I owed £4700, he wouldn't tell me when the debt was from, or for what years it covered.

Said he didn't know, but he is going to return, arrest me and then bail me to appear in court.

 

I admit a couple of years ago I got into trouble with the council tax, but in February 2011 I paid £3800.

When i paid this I asked the council to confirm that my council tax was upto date, the woman on the phone said yes, but I never got anything in writing.

 

Last year when my bill arrived, I contacted the council and informed them that my son is at university, but still living at home,

I posted them a copy of the letter from the university.

 

I never received an amended bill.

Lax I know, but they didn't send me a bill so I didn't pay anything.

 

My council tax is £1200 per year, with my 25% discount I work out that I owe them £800 for last year, and approx £270 for this year.(upto todays date)

 

A couple of questions before he rings me tomorrow,

1 Can he arrest me? I thought only police could do that.

2 Is there a template I can fill in to get the council to break down the £4700

3 Do I have to answer the phone to him, or should I contact the council directly?

 

The business card he left had the councils logo on it so it appears he works for the council,

but he was holding a folder which had GDR debt recovery on it, which leads me to believe he might not be a council employee.

 

I am prepared to pay last years council tax, and also get this years upto date, but I refuse to pay £4700.

 

Thanks in advance

[i hate bailiffs]

warrant for your arrest i very much doubt it

 

rule 1 bailiffs lie

 

you need to contact the council tomorrow and find out how many liability orders you have and how much outstanding and the dates

[i hate bailiffs]

don't speak to the muppet on the phone or at your door if you don't want to

 

the only special powers he will have is the ability to talk $$$t all day and his shirt stays clean

 

payments direct to council and deal with council

[dx100uk]

1 no he cant.

 

2.if you can pay you should be paying the council

direct via your internet banking site

never ever pay a bailiff.

 

you need to do these two things:

 

start by sending this to the bailiff co. it can done by e-mail also send it to the council this will tell us when the fees were added

From:

My Name

My Address

To:

Acme bailiff Co

bailiff House

Ref: Account No: 123456

Dear Sir

With reference to the above account, Can you please provide me with a breakdown of the charges.

This includes:

a - the time & date of any Bailiff action that incurred a Fee.

b - the reason for the fee.

c - the name(s) of the Bailiff(s) that attended on each occasion a Fee was charged.

d - the name(s) of the Court(s) the Bailiff(s) was/were certificated at.

e - the date of the Certification.

This is not a Subject access request under the Data Protection Act S7 1998 so does not incur a fee of £10. You are obliged to provide this information.

I require this information within 14 days.

Yours faithfully

 

 

Also always advisable to ask the Council.

1 - how many Liability Orders they have against you

2 - the dates they were obtained

3 - the addresses they were for

4 - the period of time each covers

5 - how much each one was for

6 - how much is still outstanding

7 - the dates they were passed on for enforcement

 

3 council only!

 

GDR debt recovery ... cant find anything on them.

 

sounds iffy!!

 

dx

[Grandprix]

Thank you all so much for your quick responses,

As long as i'm not gonna get arrested and hauled in front of the court!

Actually I wouldn't mind so much going to court, because I would be able to show the judge how much I have paid to the council over the last few years!

I'll post that letter tomorrow

Final note, he said he was going to investigate what the £4700 was for and ring me tomorrow with a court date,

Thanks again

[i hate bailiffs]

Thank you all so much for your quick responses,

As long as i'm not gonna get arrested and hauled in front of the court!

Actually I wouldn't mind so much going to court, because I would be able to show the judge how much I have paid to the council over the last few years!

I'll post that letter tomorrow

Final note, he said he was going to investigate what the £4700 was for and ring me tomorrow with a court date,

Thanks again

 

it is not a crime to be behind with council tax there would never be enough room in the prisons ,we may even share a cell:lol:

[dx100uk]

silly muppet..

 

its a liability order - there is no power of arrest nor a warrant nor ANY need for a court date.

 

they will say anything to get money you do not owe in 'dodgy fees'.

[brassnecked]

You would have had to appeared a few times in front of magistrates as an incorrigible "Won't Pay" before they would even think of prison, this muppet is trying every threat he knows to gain some extra beer tokens imho

 

Forget what HE thinks you owe follow what DX100 has suggested, to get exactly what you owe from the council. You can be sure it will be a lot less than the bailiff is claiming.

[hallowitch]

I never received an amended bill.

 

My council tax is £1200 per year, with my 25% discount I work out that I owe them £800 for last year, and approx £270 for this year.(upto todays date)

 

 

If the council have not applied the 25% discount the bailiff will be collecting the full amount

this years debt will be for the full council tax yr not what you owe up till now

 

Before you can be prosecuted for wilful refusal or culpable neglect the council must first try to levy your goods if there are no goods and you refuse to pay pixx of to Spain for a month then the council will issue a warrant not the bailiff

 

did the bailiff leave any paperwork with his name on it and outstanding balance due

[sgtbush]

your not far enough down the line to be at warrant of commital stage

you are at liability order stage

 

if you think your bill is wrong then you have to speak to the council to get the bill amended, or say i want my day in court to prove the bill is incorect

in regard to the CT bill regardles of the 25% discount

if you are in arrears then your council tax bill can be demanded in full, upfront and the council dont have to take instalments

so they can demand all the CT minus the 25%, if your intitled to it

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

I think you will find that '' a bailiff duly ordered by a magistrate can arrest for non payment on a number of things.

It is also possible that the ''bailiff'' is a Warrant Officer'' as it was stated arrest and bail to appear.

[lookinforinfo]

I was under the impression that the police had to be in attendance when bailiffs carried out their dtries under an arrest warrant?

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

My feeling is this may be the courts warrant office who

has powers of arrest and bale under a magistrates warrent

and does not need police presence.

[old bill]

My feeling is this may be the courts warrant office who

has powers of arrest and bale under a magistrates warrent

and does not need police presence.

 

HMCTS Warrant Officers are normally accompanied by a constable or constables when executing fine default warrants or committal warrants. I have yet to see an HMCTS Warrant Officer carrying a folder with GDR Debt Collection emblazoned on it or handing out a local authority business card. This person could be a local authority Revenue Officer who needs a good hard kick up the backside as well as re-training. If this person is a bailiff, he needs patting on the head, a kick up the backside and being told to go play with the traffic on the nearest by-pass or motorway. You definitely need to ask the local authority to provide you with a breakdown of the figure being quoted and over which period or periods.

[jimmy50000]

Hi there,

just came across this forum and joined to play poacher turned game keeper

 

when I read your question as I used to be a bailiff (boo hiss yeah I know) not a very good one if that helps!

 

my point is that with all due respect to much longer term members than me there is some really bad information among the good on this thread.

 

I'm not a legal expert obviously and have been out of the industry for some years, but I don't think much has changed as far as regulation is concerned in that time.

 

To clear up a few points which seem to be causing confusion,

yes a bailiff can serve an arrest warrant (that technically makes him a Warrant Officer at that time)

and no, they don't need the Police to be present.

 

In your case it sounds like a warrant with bail has been issued which means you have to sign to say you recognise the bail and will attend on the date given,

refusing to sign means you can be arrested immediately.

 

In reality what will happen is the bailiff will call the Police, and you'll sign it when you realise this is real, so you might as well cut out the middle man.

 

The date will be at least a few days away, so you'll have time to contact the council and dispute the amount, then at least you will know why they think you owe this.

 

If it's a massive cock up they might contact the court and get the warrant withdrawn, otherwise you'll have to attend court.

 

In my experience councils try and negotiate an agreement for payment at court, before you go before the judge, but obviously that might vary from place to place.

 

If you dispute it or can't agree payment then you can put your case to the judge, who will then order you to make payments of a certain amount or dismiss if he agrees you don't owe it.

If you don't appear then a warrant without bail will be issued.

 

This means you will be physically arrested and taken to court, and a bailiff can do this too, and again the Police are not needed unless of course you plan to resist.

Letting it get to this stage is not going to go down well with the judge, so don't.

 

You won't go to prison at this stage unless you flat out refuse to pay any amounts outstanding, so don't worry, but you must maintain any payments the court orders,

otherwise there is a real risk, I've seen it happen.

 

There seems to be doubt from some people that what the bailiff has IS an arrest warrant, it seems unlikely to be anything else,

but when he returns just ask to see it, he'll be leaving a copy anyway, it will clearly state what it is.

 

Sorry for what must be one of the longest first posts in history, but the temptation to see "Bailiff" and follow the advice,

refuse to let them in and ignore them, doesn't apply in this case, he is directly serving a court document, and the courts will not be messed with.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Good evening jimmy welcome to CAG, thank you

for the information.!

[old bill]

Hi there,

just came across this forum and joined to play poacher turned game keeper

 

when I read your question as I used to be a bailiff (boo hiss yeah I know) not a very good one if that helps!

 

my point is that with all due respect to much longer term members than me there is some really bad information among the good on this thread.

 

I'm not a legal expert obviously and have been out of the industry for some years, but I don't think much has changed as far as regulation is concerned in that time.

 

To clear up a few points which seem to be causing confusion,

yes a bailiff can serve an arrest warrant (that technically makes him a Warrant Officer at that time)

and no, they don't need the Police to be present.

 

In your case it sounds like a warrant with bail has been issued which means you have to sign to say you recognise the bail and will attend on the date given,

refusing to sign means you can be arrested immediately.

 

In reality what will happen is the bailiff will call the Police, and you'll sign it when you realise this is real, so you might as well cut out the middle man.

 

The date will be at least a few days away, so you'll have time to contact the council and dispute the amount, then at least you will know why they think you owe this.

 

If it's a massive cock up they might contact the court and get the warrant withdrawn, otherwise you'll have to attend court.

 

In my experience councils try and negotiate an agreement for payment at court, before you go before the judge, but obviously that might vary from place to place.

 

If you dispute it or can't agree payment then you can put your case to the judge, who will then order you to make payments of a certain amount or dismiss if he agrees you don't owe it.

If you don't appear then a warrant without bail will be issued.

 

This means you will be physically arrested and taken to court, and a bailiff can do this too, and again the Police are not needed unless of course you plan to resist.

Letting it get to this stage is not going to go down well with the judge, so don't.

 

You won't go to prison at this stage unless you flat out refuse to pay any amounts outstanding, so don't worry, but you must maintain any payments the court orders,

otherwise there is a real risk, I've seen it happen.

 

There seems to be doubt from some people that what the bailiff has IS an arrest warrant, it seems unlikely to be anything else,

but when he returns just ask to see it, he'll be leaving a copy anyway, it will clearly state what it is.

 

Sorry for what must be one of the longest first posts in history, but the temptation to see "Bailiff" and follow the advice,

refuse to let them in and ignore them, doesn't apply in this case, he is directly serving a court document, and the courts will not be messed with.

 

Hi Jimmy and welcome to CAG.

 

I do know that Court Bailiffs, CEOs and Warrant Officers can attend to arrest. I've seen Court Bailiffs arrest someone for non-payment of Maintenance. It was done very discreetly and with the minimum of problems. CEOs and Warrant Officers, in my experience, tend to go with a constable for their own protection. Especially if you don't know what the defaulter is likely to do. Where I am, the police deal with fine defaulters.

 

We have had some very serious incidents, lately, reported on this and another consumer website involving certificated bailiffs, working for commercial bailiff companies, where unlawful physical violence has been used against debtors and obtaining and attempts to obtain fees not due, usually by means of illegal/unlawful coercion. My thoughts, having dealt with the more violent elements in the civil enforcement industry when I was a policeman - I am now retired - is that a certificated bailiff should not be allowed to run amok with an arrest warrant. At the moment, the situation in the civil enforcement industry is that it is more like the Wild West than a civilised society. That is an observation. There does need to be a clampdown on the worst excesses and abuses of the civil enforcement industry and it would be interesting to hear your views on how the situation can be improved for all those involved.

[old bill]

Speaking as someone who was arrested by 2 private bailiffs without the police, taken to Court and put before a judge, I thought I would add my 10 pence worth.

 

Regards

Eddi

 

What on earth did the last government think they were doing? Two words come to mind - "dangerous" and "reckless". Thank you for posting that up, Eddi.

[brassnecked]

Thanks for this londoneddi, it shows that the last administration was on a privatisation mania, as looking at this it is wholly unworkable with little regulation of the arresting agents, and has turned much of the enforcement into the wild west, look at:

 

Bail

The Magistrates Court Rules 1981 27 have been amended to allow a CEO or

enforcement agent to take a recognizance from a defendant and thereby to grant bail

on arrest warrants that permit bail. This amendment was vital to the new system, as

without it there would have been a need for bailiffs to take persons in custody

straight before a court, possibly leading to chaos in the administration of criminal

justice.

 

Execution of warrants

It is likely that the main problem to arise from the transfer of powers to enforcement agencies will derive from the lack of clarity as to their powers of arrest. At commonlaw police officers and private individuals share the same powers of arrest, but theformer's powers are now largely contained in statute. For civilians, the situation is

still almost exclusively governed by common law and is far from certain, though

various changes have been made by Access to Justice Act 1999 and by

amendments to the MCR. As a consequence there is a risk of errors being made

and of unlawful arrests and detentions occurring. Many of the common law

principles governing distraint are shared with arrest, so enforcement agents will not

be totally unfamiliar with the subject.

 

This is actually abhorrent to due process and a very slippery slope.

 

i recommend all on here read this and digest,

[old bill]

The other matter that comes to mind is that are bailiffs going to remember to properly caution detainees and comply with PACE? Going by past events, I think not. A reckless and dangerous move by the last government that should be repealed at the earliest possible opportunity.

[brassnecked]

The other matter that comes to mind is that are bailiffs going to remember to properly caution detainees and comply with PACE? Going by past events, I think not. A reckless and dangerous move by the last government that should be repealed at the earliest possible opportunity.

 

It is going down the OCP private cop route just like the situation in Robocop where corporations controlled the police.

[brassnecked]

Why???

 

I would rather have Bailiffs out doing this, than the Police as in my area is't hard to get Police to come for an assault using them to arrest people not paying fine/tax is a waste of police time.

 

How many threads do you see reading Bailiffs behaviour whilst arresting people? When I went thorough my troubles I researched this alot and found almost nothing on the internet all info I got on this matter was provided by my council and by FOI requests to various authorities.

 

Whilst I cant stand some Bailiffs, it's surprising how many councils are actually using them, following a number of FOI requests it appears they are used on a daily basis across the country. I also found out that 2 chaps who took me to court one of them was an ex police officer.

 

If you want to see why it isn't such a good idea to let bailiffs loose with such powers onto all and sundry, take a look at this thread, it will take quite a while to get through, but it is indicative of why bailiffs cannot be trusted

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?343005-Seriously-vulnerable-family-bullied-for-over-5hrs-by-bailiffs

[brassnecked]

I have seen the thread and many others like it which disgusts me, however you cant tar them all with the same brush.

 

The same goes for police who are corrupt, does that make them all bad? Teachers are have been convicted for being paedophiles, does that make all teachers bad? No.

 

If you work it out the amount of Bailiffs/HCEO/CEO etc. in the industry and all of them doing a quite few jobs a day I imagine, then add up the amount of threads on forums such as this great one its only a small minority that are Bad and I'm more than happy to see them rot in prison, however I don't agree with letting people off from not paying tax/fines/CSA and all the rest the use of Bailiffs is essential as nobody would ever pay what they owe, I know I wouldn't if everyone else didn't pay, I tried it and ended up in a worse off position!!!

No one on CAG condones NOT paying , but what is frowned on is the fact that most people who come on for help are can't pays due to a reduced financial circumstance, and blodd out of a stone springs to mind. If a family with £20 left to buy food after bills cannot afford to pay £50 per week the bailiff demands, how are they going to afford the £100 per week he will demand after several more visits?

 

So he clears the house and gets £100 quid at auction, and kerching due to fees debtor now owes another £300, for expenses notwithstanding it would now be evident the levy was merely to garner fees and would be repugnant to the law.

 

bailiffs need reform and a tight choke chain to reign them in imho

[dx100uk]

gentleman

 

what has this got to do with the op's issues....?

 

either stay on topic or go start a discussion thread

 

eddi

 

please try to use cag to HELP others help others

or

help yourself rather than attacking those that help

 

dx

 

dx