Legal question, motoring offences 2k fine

[equality 2521]

Hi,

 

I am fairly new to this, I couldn't find a legal forum, so I put it here since it started as motoring offences.

 

My main question is this... What right do you have to a trial by jury?

 

I have been right royally shafted by the courts, and I know that if there had been a jury I would have been acquitted.

 

My case has now been through crown court.... Do I have any further right of appeal?

 

What happens with fines... There was no means test applied to my case. Can I apply to have my fines reduced ?

 

In crown court no mention of guilt, or sentence, nor the amount of fine I would pay was made. The judge was pretty embarrassed at having to find me guilty when it was laughingly obvious I was not, he was wincing and couldn't look me in the eyes and virtually ran out of the court afterward. Could I call into question the validity of the hearing, since no findings were read to the court?

 

I did have fun grilling the copper, he was furious, I caught him out on everything, lying, cheating, fraud, all in front of the judge (who wanted to hide). I also feel I got my 2k worth since it must have cost them more than that. But, I don't have much and 2000 is way over. I have been totally wronged by them, according to their own rules, that were flagrantly disregarded. It was farcical.

 

I will be back later, and will give all the details of the case, but I don't have much time now.

[Aretnap]

You don't say what you were accused of. Most motoring offences and triable only summarily so you cannot have a trial by jury. It's trial by a magistrates court, and if convicted you can appeal to the Crown Court, though you still don't get a "proper" trial by jury - it will be a bench of a judge and two magistrates. If your appeal to the Crown Court has been unsuccessful then your only recourse is to the High Court - and then only if you think the court was wrong on a point of law. The High Court will not overturn findings of fact other than in exceptional circumstances.

 

To be tried by jury the offence must be indictable. Off the top of my head the only motoring offences which are indictable are dangerous driving and "causing death by..." offences.

 

What was the offence, and did the £2000 include costs?

[equality 2521]

Yes the 2k includes costs. But that is a lot for me. I know they probably earned that for the one day, and thought they were doing me a favour.

 

Is non payment of fines indictable?

 

This is how much I know about law!

 

Essentially you can get locked up, without the chance to argue your point before a jury of your peers?

[equality 2521]

I was done for driving a car with dodgy paperwork:- MID list issue, MOT out of date, and something else.

 

The car didn't belong to me, it was a company car, it had a tax disc so how was I supposed to know?

 

My understanding is that there is a statutory defence to cover these sorts of issues, but the judge didn't want to know.

[equality 2521]

As far as a fair 'trial' is concerned, it is like a pack of wolves deciding on the fate of a sheep. If you get hauled before them you can forget it. Doesnt matter how sound your case is, you are a joke to them.

 

I have learned a couple of things for next time though.

[Aretnap]

Indurance and MOT issues - definitely non-indictable offences. So no, you can't get a jury trial for them under any circumstances, ever.

 

Yes, you can be locked up without the right to a jury trial - the magistrates can impose a sentence of up to six months in prison where the law allows. Not that this would apply in your case as I can't think of any "dodgy paperwork" motoring offence which is imprisonable.

 

Non-payment of fines is not an offence in itself, so it's not indictable and refusing to pay won't get you a jury trial. If you don't pay the court has various options for making you pay - bailiffs, deductions from your salary, or (if it's convinced that you're refusing to pay as opposed to merely unable to pay) it can send you to prison. The fines court wouldn't be interested in whether or not you were justly convicted, just in whether you've paid the fines and if not, why not. You'll normally be allowed to pay by installments if you ask.

 

The level of the fine should have been means-tested - depending on the exact offences they are usually set at 50, 100 or 150% of weekly post-tax income. However costs are generally not means tested unless the defendant is so poor that imposing them would be manifestly unjust. You can expect the CPS to apply for costs of around £600 for a not guilty plea at the magistrates court and it will be a good few hundred pounds more for an unsuccessful appeal to Crown, so £2K total does not sound impossible.

 

There's a statutory defence to no insurance if the defendant can prove that he was using someone else's car for the purposes of his employment and he neither knew nor had reason to believe that it had no insurance. However the onus is on the defendant to satisfy the court of these things. Not sure if it applies to tax/MOT.

 

As I said, if you've made an unsuccessful appeal to the Crown Court then your only recourse now is to the High Court, and then only if you think the judge erred on a point of law rather than simply because you don't agree with his verdict. If you're considering doing this then you should get professional legal advice as you'd be looking at a few grand more in costs for a failed High Court appeal, and it's not a good place for an unrepresented defendant with little legal knowledge.

[equality 2521]

Thanks, Aretnap

 

That's all kind of what I figured.

 

So essentially I will probably end up in jail, for driving to work in a company car, because someone hadn't done the paperwork correctly. Fantastic.

 

How long is a typical jail term for this sort of thing, will it be one of the nasty prisons?

 

 

A friend of mine said they always send non payers to the worst prisons so as to extract money from the prisoners family.

 

I have never been in trouble with the law, but there is no way I can pay this fine, I went DRO last year, so if a few weeks in jail will make this 2000 go away, it's a no brainer.

 

The way I feel right now, I could happily do a 6 month stretch, I am being worked to death.

[equality 2521]

BTW, it is daunting but there are things you can do that a barrister can not in the crown court.

 

You don't have to be all lick spittle, and you don't need to follow their rules. You are there to lose your case, that is a given, but you can have a heap of fun along the way. I had the cop almost about to jump out of the stand and go for me! He was fuming..

 

If they hesitate on the stand just say "don't worry, if you need more time to think of an answer, thats ok, take your time" and then make an incredulous gesture with your eyes.

 

All those things you would never say to a cop like - "Are you a member of any secret organisations, such as the freemasons?" " How can I know you are not biased in your approach"

 

You can ask the judge about his bias too. "Do you think there any incentives for the government to find me guilty, and rob me of my money?" You won't find a barrister ask any awkward questions of anyone, let alone the judge.

[janb]

confused by this post??????????

[citizenkain]

if your driving a car or any other vehicle,you need to check the paperwork is right.......

[Aretnap]

All sorts of information on enforcement of fines in the magistrates guidelines, starting on page 156

 

http://sentencingcouncil.judiciary.gov.uk/docs/MCSG_%28web%29_-_complete_version_7.pdf

[assisted blonde]

Not sure about this one dosnt sound right, why were you stopped by the police? if you were stopped then you must have answered when asked if it was your car no its a company car in which case I woulkd have thought that correct paperwork or not the company would have been questioned? If you were employed by the company then it would have been reasonable to expect that the car was MOT'd and insured. If you are still working for this company have you asked them to contribute to the fine? who was responsible for arranging an MOT in my company cars are kept for a max of 3 years but occasionally there may be a few weeks into the 3rd year depending on the change date where an MOT is needed, in those instances the driver is asked to book it in.

Did you not have a solicitor at the original hearing? i would have thought in somthing like this it would be a no brainer to have legal representation if you nothing about the law and if you did what defence/mitigation did he use?

[equality 2521]

if your driving a car or any other vehicle,you need to check the paperwork is right.......

 

Do you check the MOT when you rent a car?

 

I have asked loads of people, and nobody I know has ever checked their company car's paperwork, they leave it to admin.

 

Some have had a cover note printed if stopped, some have even taken the car to MOT and even kept the certificate.

 

But are you supposed to make sure you are on the MID list, everytime you drive it?

[equality 2521]

Thanks for all the replies.

 

In answer:

 

No, I could not afford a barrister for the county court. There was a duty solicitor on hand at the magistrates but he was too busy to do more than a simple argument and he wasn't sure himself of the responsibly since the new law.

 

With this new system of ANPR, it seems you are guilty and then have to prove yourself innocent. Ever tried proving a negative? How can you prove you are not aware of something, its not like my name is Tony Blair.

 

I have argued with the company, and screamed and shouted over who fcuked it up, they just pass the buck to each other.

 

 

I know from reading other forums that this sort of lark is going on all over the place.

 

I notice the insurance companies now phone you up while you are at work, checking you haven't put alloy wheels on your dustbin truck. If you don't answer their thousand questions about whatever they can think of right then and there, they will take you off the ANPR list. Then they try to catch you out so as to charge 50 quid on your card. If you argue they will take you off the list.

 

If the cops and courts spent as much time going after the banks and insurance companies, as they do motorists, we would all be happy and rich.

 

This country is going straight to hell.

[sallypotter]

This country IS HELL.

[equality 2521]

This country IS HELL.

 

I couldn't have put it better, and you wasn't in the court room with me the other day.

There is a movie 'devils advocate' I think, where the demons reveal their true horrible faces to scare the protagonist into compliance. Well I know how that protagonist feels, I swear I could see their faces twisting into a goblin's, as they sneered down at me. (I am talking particularly of one of the magistrates, the prosecutors helper ( Salacious B. Crumb ), and an admin clerk)

 

I almost felt sorry for the judge. He had to try and explain and excuse himself as to why I was guilty, he really was on the spot. He didn't know where to look in the end, and just ran out of the court as quick as he could.

 

BTW, he never passed sentence (I don't think he could choke up the words). He just muttered a few things with the prosecutor about fines, before doing the runner. Not a word was spoken directly to me, does anyone know what that means?

 

Also the clerk said there was no transcripts nor recordings of the trial, yet at the beginning there was all the usual talk for the 'record'. I had tried to record it on my phone, but it is not clear enough, to hear the really amusing parts well. The whole affair seemed very amateurish for a crown court.

[seanamarts]

Do you check the MOT when you rent a car?

 

Yes I do, I check ALL paperwork to make sure everything is in order, it is up to the driver to make sure the vehicle he/she is driving is road worthy.

 

You can take your employer to a small claims court to recoup your loses plus compensation.

[equality 2521]

Yes I do, I check ALL paperwork to make sure everything is in order, it is up to the driver to make sure the vehicle he/she is driving is road worthy.

 

You can take your employer to a small claims court to recoup your loses plus compensation.

 

Yea right, thats a good idea. Maybe you don't have bills to pay, but I need my job thankyou. Besides I can see full well how all this works.....You don't stand a chance without a jury trial, its all decided with a wink and a dodgy hand gesture; " how much shall we stitch this one for your honour?" "lets watch his face when we charge him twice his yearly earnings...whawhawhawha"

 

So what you are saying is that whenever you use a car that is not your own, such as a rental, you check the MOT and insurance, and go online and check it is on the MID list?

 

If so, I hand it to you, you have learn't well the ways of the dark side, a Jedi you may be.

[equality 2521]

BTW how do you check the MID list hasn't changed since you left your house this morning?

 

Is there an app for that?

[seanamarts]

Yea right, thats a good idea. Maybe you don't have bills to pay, but I need my job thankyou. Besides I can see full well how all this works.....You don't stand a chance without a jury trial, its all decided with a wink and a dodgy hand gesture; " how much shall we stitch this one for your honour?" "lets watch his face when we charge him twice his yearly earnings...whawhawhawha"

 

So what you are saying is that whenever you use a car that is not your own, such as a rental, you check the MOT and insurance, and go online and check it is on the MID list?

 

If so, I hand it to you, you have learn't well the ways of the dark side, a Jedi you may be.

 

There is no need to be facetious!

 

You say you have bills to pay, but you have now a fine that the company you work for are responsible for. Perhaps its your bosses you should be angry at, not the judicial system.

Were they not held for being partly responsible?

 

No I do not check the MID list, I phone the insurance company and make sure that I am covered. I also request to see the MOT cert.

 

Its a lesson learned

[equality 2521]

So how did you lean your lesson then, it happen to you?

 

If you don't check the MID list every time you drive you could be caught out by one of these new insurance scams.

 

Don't worry about my bosses they have heard all about it, you could have heard it a mile down the road. Being angry is one thing I can get away with, taking the governor to court is not.

 

No, no effort was made to find anyone other than me responsible.

 

Also I am angry with your judicial system for a good reason.... Its there only to serve its own interest. It does not serve the people, it does not provide justice, it is just an old boys club of over paid mouth oiks, trying anyway it can to fleece innocent people. Since the poor tend to be stupid and can't fight back, they make the easiest targets for this most dishonest of organisations.

 

They will never let you be tried by a jury of your peers, because it simply wouldn't work. Most men still have honor in their heart, and would through out all this dishonesty if they presided over a court of the people before god.

 

To hell with your 'legal system' back where it came from. I want to live in a LAWFUL land, I want to be free, free of this evil that is everywhere, free of the corruption and the dirt and the stink of the police and the judicial and the 'civil servants' and all this government and their wretched secret frats and societies and all the other criminals that infest this place.

 

You lawyers may think times are hard because you cannot have the latest porche this year, but people like me (the large majority) cannot put food on our families table. The game is nearly up. You better join with the people, or you will burn in the streets along with the diabolical government and judges you worship.

 

Doh, now I'v started ranting again.

[seanamarts]

No it didnt happen to me, I was referring to you that you have learned a lesson.

 

In this country ignorance is not an excuse, if in doubt ask.

 

By the way I am not a lawyer.

[equality 2521]

Yes I have learned a few more things, as I just posted elsewhere :

 

I have learned ... Know your place (under the yoke), shut your mouth (no one asked you), keep your head down and work till you puke, do as you are ordered, and stump up your earnings when told by your masters, not that they need it (they print it) but because it pleases them to play with us like a cat with a mouse.

 

I have also learned that the police are never wrong, if they wish to abuse us we should not ask ourselves why, or what did we do to deserve it... We have been honored by the beating they have bestowed upon us and should be thankful for every blow. We are just cattle, they are special they are our handlers, they work for THE GOVERNMENT who are sentient beings mightier than god.

 

I have also noticed that ignorance is not an excuse for us lowly ****, it is only an excuse for our government to whack us at their pleasure.

 

I didn't say you were a lawyer, I was thinking solicitor actually.

[Aretnap]

In this country ignorance is not an excuse, if in doubt ask.

It can be in some circumstances - for example if you were driving a work car in the course of your employment and you had no reason to believe that insurance was not in place.

 

Even if not a defence, if you were mislead about a car's insurance status by someone you had good reason to believe you would have a strong argument for special reasons not to endorse and for no penalty to be imposed.

 

From his description of the process though, in the OP's case I fear this point may have been slightly obscured by all his questions about whether the policeman was a freemason and whether the judge was on a retainer.

[assisted blonde]

If you represent yourself in court you need to play the game and not get into personal questions about freemasonry etc, not a good idea to cheese the judge off unless you are a solicitor or barrister and then you can only go so far.