Housing benefit fraud investigation

[newmommy2012]

Hi guys i am new to this. back in 2007 me and my partner was self employed for avon, and in the two years we earnt 9k (not much). To my knowledge i have informed the council regarding this, we phoned up and told them our change of cisrcumstances. as it is going back a while ago, i remember them telling us that we have to wait for 3 months before we can go in and sign forms etc because the business has just started. anyway i dont remember what happened after that wether we forgot or if we did go back. anyway in 2011 i have a letter inviting me for IUC for fraud... the investigator was bery understanding, he had my bank statements and all our forms that we filled since claiming housing and council tax, and all the change of cirumstances we have had in the past 5 years or so, while he was interviewing me he asked me if there was something missing in the forms he has shown me,,,it was clear to me that he did not once mention avon, so i actaully said to him that yes you missed something out you didnt mention avon! and then he said well, thats very nice of you to tell me that because that is the reason why you are here! i was pretty shocked that he did not have our recor of doing avon! i said to him thats very strange because avon was one of the longest job me and my partner did! he said he has checked on their system and they did not find it! so this is where i need help, i am being accused of claiming fraudently even though in my heart i know this is not something i would ever consider! I had explained that there must be a mistake as when we started an, i actually told inland revenue about our new self employed work and have my tax credit claim to show this,, and also if there was intent of fraud , why did i not apply for JSA as well if i was pretending not be working!! so its very clear that there was a mistake or maybe i have somehow forgotten to go back in 3 months to tell them about avon! i am so confused right now!! anyway he calculated that in 2 years we earnt £9,000 = and when he did his calculation based on 0 income for 2 years he said that they have overpaid us housing benefit and council tax and in come to nearly 6k in two years. can anyone out there please help me on what to do. I am already repaying this every week, and when the interview finished i thought that was it! 6 months gone, i received a letter that i have to go to court to answer for the following allegations of being dishonest. I am no way a dishonest person, firstly if i was a fraudster, i would not tell inland revenue about avon, and if i was pretending not be working why didnt i also claim for job seekers allowance! i didnt do this as obviously it was no intention there of being a [EDIT]! i relly need help guys.

[ErikaPNP]

You will need to find a solicitor to represent you in relation to the criminal charges.

 

Did the council not review your benefit in those two years? Unless you are claiming an income based benefit from DWP they normally do reviews - six monthly off the top of my head.

 

Though you did declare that you were self employed, there still remains the issue of you not declaring the income made despite being advised that you had to do so and despite the yearly uprating letters which would have reminded you of changes that needed to be declared - I think this is the part that you will struggle with.

[sallypotter]

Get yourself a solicitor that deals in these kinds of cases.

[newmommy2012]

Thanks guys, because it was a while ago, i dont know if they sent me my housing benefit award letter , the investigator said that he has us as 0 income hence the overpayment of nearly 6k of housing and council tax within that 2 years! when he calculated our income it was 9k in the total of two years! someone please put me out of my mstery is his calcualtions correct? our rent is 140 per week by the way! how did he come up with that 6k overpayment when we only made i am confused!!

also i found a letter that dated 2009 from the council as it says earned income 54.99 per week? where did they get this from , could this be thats what we earnt with avon? because we use to come out with about 100 pounds per week, but there is petrol costs and other costs running the business like business cards etc etc! the fact that i also paid tax when we was self employed could i sue this as a fact that i was not hiding the fact that i was working as we was paying tax for being self employed, also been to accountant and he had done our account for avon?

[newmommy2012]

sorry for spelling mistakes! got 2 kids jumping on me wanting to use the computer:-o

[newmommy2012]

my reply to ErikaPNP to be honest i am sure we told them our income. we have never been in trouble with council or anything like this, i dont see why we would not declare 4,500 tearly income its not a big deal and i m not sure why this has happened! why have they left it so late to tell me this? if they told me straight away i would have gone to council straight away !

[sallypotter]

Sorry i haven't got a clue about the figures.

 

I do know that you need a knowledgeable solicitor if it's going to court.

 

It's also not what they know but what they can prove.

 

Sal

[sallypotter]

You have probably been grassed up by a jealous "friend" that is why it has taken so long.

 

Sal

[newmommy2012]

thanks sal wow that never came across to me at all, it could be possible .

the only thing when we did avon, we advertised it on internet i had my own blogs etc about im a mom and this is why avon works.... i just dont see why i would hide this from council, like i said i told inland revenue, had accountant. could i just tell the court that i forgot to tell them even though this was not the case. x

[newmommy2012]

if i asked the council for my housing benefit and council tax award letter for that period would they give it me?

[ErikaPNP]

Sorry I'm confused. I thought you said you'd told them about starting the work but hadn't updated them on your income from that work. You are saying you don't know whether you did but think that you did.

 

If you aren't sure, submit a Subject Access Request to the council, telling them that you would like all information held from computiersed records, clerical records and any audio recordings of telephone conversations (for the period in question). Tell them you would also like copies of written correspondance exchanged between you and them.

 

When you get the documents in look through them for anything that would suggest you told them of your income. A change of circumstances form, a letter sent from you to them, anything in the computer prints of your claim.

 

If you phoned your changes through, obtain all telephone bills for the period. Once you get the bills in, look for any calls you made to the council and see if you can find a match to the dates in the bundle of SAR papers from the council. If there is no corresponding date, (there is a phone call made on a certain date but nothing in your record to indicate why) pass this information on to your solicitor.

 

The bank statements you mention - did fraud obtain them or are these ones that you handed in during your claim - if you handed them in, do they have details of income from Avon on them?

 

Yes they will give you your award letters - this is covered by the SAR.

 

I would not recommend telling the court that you 'forgot' if this is not what happened. Courts will not accept that as a defence on its own. If you told them, then you need to defend yourself (or preferably have a solicitor defend you) and avoid the possibility of getting a criminal record.

[newmommy2012]

Hi Erika, thank you so much for your reply!! i appreciate that, the investigator already had a statement from my bank - although there was nothing much in there he just wanted to ask about a payment that i had which was over 100 pounds that was it and that was the end of it. however the investigation is carried because i had failed to tell them of our avon work - this was the problem, as i had told inland revenue about our new work, and at the time we did phone council to say that we had started and in the beginning we did not have an income untill a few months after we started avon. if i did forget to notify them and now they have calculated out income in the last 2 years and its 9k ...is this a big amount for them and is this enough to prosecute me even though there was no intention of fraud from what i believe ,, as i said again i told inland revenue, even had accountant to go through our expenditures for doing avon like petrol costs..surely this is not me pretending not working otherwise i woudlnt even have done all this! im abit lost, as he cant find any records for that year when we were self employed. i am pretty gutted as i have always been clean when claiming housing benefit and council tax, i have never been in this mess before! i have had housing and council tax help since 2006 on and off and never been in this mess x

[Stan Lee]

I'm just trying to unpack this a little:

 

You were on housing benefit prior to 2007, and in 2007, you informed your local authority that you were working for AVON. They have no record of this (that they have disclosed to you, although as ErikaPNP says, a SARS request is in order), and you never called them back after three months as they specified.

 

In 2009 you received a letter from the council calculating your income at £54-ish a week. Could this possibly be tax credit related?

 

In the two years between 2007 and 2009 you earnt 9000 pounds (as your only earnings, which puts you at about 90 pounds a week although I'm doing this in my head so forgive me if I am wrong). Given that you say that you have two children, I assume they receive CTaxC, which does count against any HB award you receive. Also, were you in receipt of WTC (I don't see how, but again, I'm no expert)? I assume they (the local authority) had records of this. If memory serves, Child Benefit also counted as income until 2009, but I absolutely could be wrong on that.

 

Two years later, in 2011, you receive an invitation to attend an interview about your claim, circa 2007 -- 2009. (Which may well lend credence to the idea that someone tipped them off.)

 

Now, you also say that you informed them of multiple changes of circumstances, but did not mention AVON -- was this because you had fluctuating income from sources other than AVON (which you have not mentioned here), or did you just fill out review forms?

 

What I would URGE you to do is take all your paperwork (bank statements, evidence of income [payslips, TC awards etc] overpayment letter) to either a CAB adviser or preferably a Welfare Rights adviser and have a professional look at whether or not you have been overpaid, and the level of overpayment. The DWP/LA calculations might not necessarily be right, and from the cursory information you have provided, my suspicion is that something is not right here. (Of course, that may well be down to the lack of information you have provided instead of official error, and I am not a forensic accountant nor a government employee, so I cannot offer an informed opinion on that.) Doing these sorts of checks is a big part of Welfare Right's Adviser's job descriptions, and so google around and see if you can find your nearest. This would be a big priority, alongside sorting out a solicitor and getting a SARS request in.

[newmommy2012]

Hi , we only ever did avon, and we earned 4500 and another 4500 total to 9000, this is the only work we have ever done. This is something i would never do on purpose we have always been straight with council and inland revenue when it comes to this things.

 

 

The only problem, is when i went to IUC whn the interview finished the interviewer never made me think that i will go to court, we agreed on a figure on what i can pay and i pay the every week. now 5 months or so they wrote me a letter that i have to go court, if i know this i would have done things slightly different like sort bills out, show a proof of ougtoings although this might be difficult as it was a while ago.

im not being funny but as you know with self employed even if we earnt 4500, there would have been stuff comming out, like petrol i use to drive everywhere and i mean everywehere collecting and dropping off orders! i also had bills as i used these to call customers if they were or not. so even if we did earn 4500 that was not all profit as you know with self employed work there should have been other costs to try to take that figures down.

 

yes we informed inland revenue when we started work, but the council did not find anything in their system. its really silly if only they would have rang inland revenue as they can see i would have been getting working tax credit this could have been sorted out , but i know its not their duty to do that as they dont have to ring up inland revenue. this was all purely an innocent mistake.

[newmommy2012]

I have found an old letter from the council dating back 2009

 

it says

Income (net of Tax, N.I. and half of any pension contributions)

 

Earned Income £52.29

Child Benefit £ 20.00

Tax Credit £ 142.08

Couples Earnings disregard £ - 10

Tax Credit Earning Disregard Top-Up Amount £ - 16.00

 

I am confused the earned Income calculation of

352.29 where did this come from ? is this what we earnt from avon? i hope someone could help me out explain this

 

thank you

[newmommy2012]

SORRY THERE WAS ERROR - THIS IS THE RIGHT ONE

 

I am confused the earned Income calculation of

£52.29 where did this come from ? is this what we earnt from avon? i hope someone could help me out explain this

[Stan Lee]

I am unsure if costs like petrol can 'written off' in regards to income that is taken into account for HB if you are self employed -- my suspicion is no, but then I am not an expert. I haven't time at the minute to check this out, but I believe the relevant decision maker manual is here if you want to check for yourself (it's chapter 16 of the DM handbook):

 

http://www.dsdni.gov.uk/ssani-hbdmg

 

Irrespective of your actual incomings and outgoings, the government has decided on a figure that you, as a couple with a family, must have in order to live on. Once you earn more than this weekly figure (which includes tax credits) they deduct your extra income from the housing and council tax benefit they provide for you. From the figures you have provided, I wonder if something is wrong with the overpayment they have calculated. Once again, I'm not a government employee nor an expert, so it is very possible I am wrong.

 

It is therefore important to sit down with someone who knows the legislation inside out, with all your paperwork, and check whether this overpayment is legit. If it is wrong, then you need to appeal against it and have it reduced. Normally you only have a set time period to appeal against the OP decision, but this is not set in stone, and so a Welfare Rights adviser is a must here (or CAB if there isn't Welfare Rights near you). As far as I am aware, appeals against overpayment take time, so get on this as quick as possible. Having an overpayment massively reduced wont necessarily stop a prosecution, but anecdotally I have read that prosecutions have been dropped in circumstances where there has been a big error.

 

Concurrently, you need to try and find evidence that you informed the LA of your AVON work. (And, find out what income was being counted on the letter of award from 2009.) The government could still turn round and say that you never followed this up as you were required to (and you didn't fill out the subsequent change of circumstances forms correctly) but it's all about getting points in you favour.

 

If, in a best case scenario, you can establish that a) you did tell them and b) that their overpayment is miscalculated, then this will count in your favour. The clock is ticking though; you want to therefore do these five things ASAP: 1) get a SARS request in, 2) get all your paperwork in order, including all communications you have had with the council, your bank statements from the period in question, your tax credits/CB awards, and payslips. 3) Go through all you phonebills from the period in question and highlighting any phonecalls you made to the LA -- this might take time, but it's worth it, as you can compare this to their records when you receive the SARS material. 4) Make an appointment with Welfare Rights to have a look at the overpayment calculation. 5) Try and source a lawyer with experience in Welfare (google lawyers in your area, or use YELL and e-mail and specifically ask for lawyers with this experience).

[Stan Lee]

SORRY THERE WAS ERROR - THIS IS THE RIGHT ONE

 

I am confused the earned Income calculation of

£52.29 where did this come from ? is this what we earnt from avon? i hope someone could help me out explain this

 

If you cannot explain it, then it is unlikely that we can. Why don't you give the council a call and ask them about their records? If you think that this is evidence of them knowing about your AVON, then don't lose this bit of paper or send it anywhere! Get a photocopy of it, if there are any requests to see it.

[MIKEY DABODEE]

SORRY THERE WAS ERROR - THIS IS THE RIGHT ONE

 

I am confused the earned Income calculation of

£52.29 where did this come from ? is this what we earnt from avon? i hope someone could help me out explain this

 

I am no expert Stan Lee has given excellent advice you do need to seek some help

but my take on the £52.59 is that it is earned income from wages. I say this because on your breakdown it shows - £10 this is a disregard, a disregard is giving on earnings, ten pound is a couple rate disregard on earnings

this looks like a weekly figure as £20 is weekly chb for one child

 

Earned Income £52.29

Child Benefit £ 20.00

Tax Credit £ 142.08

Couples Earnings disregard £ - 10 HERE

Tax Credit Earning Disregard Top-Up Amount £ - 16.00

Edited June 5, 2012 by MIKEY DABODEE

[newmommy2012]

I am no expert Stan Lee has given excellent advice you do need to seek some help

but my take on the £52.59 is that it is earned income from wages. I say this because on your breakdown it shows - £10 this is a disregard, a disregard is giving on earnings, ten pound is a couple rate disregard on earnings

this looks like a weekly figure as £20 is weekly chb for one child

 

Earned Income £52.29

Child Benefit £ 20.00

Tax Credit £ 142.08

Couples Earnings disregard £ - 10 HERE

Tax Credit Earning Disregard Top-Up Amount £ - 16.00

 

 

 

thank you all for your info i really appreciate this!

 

Mikey - i just want to know the 52.29 figure of earned income, where is this figure from? please explain it clear to me sorry i am a little confuse?

 

i was thiking the 52.29 is because i have indeed told them that we did avon, or is this fugure from tax credit? sorry hope you can help me

[Stan Lee]

thank you all for your info i really appreciate this!

 

Mikey - i just want to know the 52.29 figure of earned income, where is this figure from? please explain it clear to me sorry i am a little confuse?

 

i was thiking the 52.29 is because i have indeed told them that we did avon, or is this fugure from tax credit? sorry hope you can help me

 

It would seem clear that this figure is not tax credits, as this is listed separately. They should have a record of what this income was from; give them a call and ask them (I assume the letter has a reference number). One thought I did have is that if you add the eighty five pounds a week that you yourself have stated you were receiving from Avon between 2007 and 2009, and add that on to the tax credits, then you were bringing in well over two hundred pounds a week. I don't know the cut offs for the income they disregard (and I don't know if I varies depending on the amount of children you have) but I do know that last year it was around 180 pounds per week for a couple with one child for HB. If you multiply, say, 60 pounds overpayment a week over 104 weeks you end up with an OP in the ballpark of six thousand pounds.

 

But that is just a back of the envelope calculation based on a load of variables that I don't actually know for sure. Which is where Welfare Rights comes in.

[newmommy2012]

the only things is , we use to spend about 20 or more on petrol every week. we didnt dop the normal catalouge droppoing of 50, we did loads like 500 drops and pick them up. we wanted to earn more than 50 per week, but obviously this was not the case as petrol costs etc.

I have not gained financially in this matter! i would have been better off with jsa lol and then there would not have been any over payment, this is to me no intent of dishonest and being a fraud , i have gained nothing and non of this was done with any intent .

[newmommy2012]

thank you everyone who has commented and giving me some useful advice and information, thank you all for your time you spent typing up these things and helping me. my court date is july 4th .

[Stan Lee]

With respect, and I understand that it is frustrating for you, I would say that the income you spent on petrol, will be irrelevant from their point of view. They will mostly likely point to the fact that there were multiple change of circumstances forms that left off the Avon information. If that letter you have does establish that they had evidence of your income, then this may serve you a little better, but the one other thing that springs to mind is that it was from 2009; was this letter dated before or after the end of the overpayment period?

 

July 4th is quite soon - have you attempted to get legal representation?

[newmommy2012]

i have only been informed with over payment after the IUC which was about 5 months ago,

the letter from council regarding income was dated 2009 .

 

when we left avon, i had had a different job since then but we still get help with housing benefit not much but still a great help.

 

Also despite all the IUC and court letter my benefit has not stopped. it is still being paid (i am now getting the right amount of council/housing benefit)

i hope i make sense sorry guys , just ask me any questions and i will answer them all xx