Very good friend -v- MBNA

[ims21]

Hi Shelley

 

If you have missing information then you won't be able to get an accurate figure using either spreadsheet and you will have to use some estimates based on what you do have and any knowledge of how the account was operated during that period of missing data.

 

The CI sheet won't give you an accurate regulatory based award anyway because it doesn't calculate any 8% interest you may be entitled to.

 

I would complete the fos running sheet from the date for which you do have statements and then take a view on what might have happened for the missing period.

 

You don't need a new sheet each time the card was paid off, the fos running sheet will cater for any periods where the balance was paid off or indeed of more than the account balance was paid off.

[Shelley181146]

Hello ims21,

 

I have started a completely new sheet and started from scratch so I can be sure I have entered the correct information.

 

I am taking up your offer to check my figures.

As previously advised, the account had already been in use for 3 years before the start of these figures so the figure in the card balance isn't correct. Can you please advise if the current input on the attached is looking right, allowing for the missing info? If that makes sense?

 

Appreciate your guidance in this matter if you can spare the time?

 

Regards

 

Shelley

[ims21]

If the card balance is incorrect then it is highly likely that the 8% interest figures shown by the sheet are incorrect too.

 

The way to correct this is to work out what the balance was at the start of the period for which you have statements. Add that opening balance figure to the monthly spend for your first month's entry and that will force the card balance to be correct at the end of your first month and for all of the subsequent months.

 

Other than that, provided you have entered the figures correctly for monthly spend, payments and the PPI the spreadsheet will be OK.

 

You then have to take a view as to what might have happened during the missing period.

 

Don't forget, MBNA will do their own calculations anyway so the workings you are doing is more for your purposes to check any offer that might be made.

[Shelley181146]

I have re-read through my thread to make sure that I have understood your advice (during a normal waking hour) and I will go through my spreadsheet before I continue to make sure I am calculating correctly. I appreciate that these calcs are only for our purpose but hope they will offer my friend some guidance when an offer is made.

 

Thank you for responding promptly. I appreciate your assistance greatly.

 

Regards

Shelley

[slick132]

Hi Shelley,

 

It's often the case that the bank offers no calculations or spreadsheet to show how they arrive at their refund figure.

 

So, as long as you have some sort of idea of the refund you seek, an approx figure may be all you need.

 

[ZENTRIX9]

Any chance someone could have a quick look at my thread for me . I need something checking over before I send a letter. Ta

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?414390-FOS-Claim-court-action-MBNA-credit-card-beat-em-)&p=4439584#post4439584

[angry cat]

Hi Shelley,

 

It's often the case that the bank offers no calculations or spreadsheet to show how they arrive at their refund figure.

 

So, as long as you have some sort of idea of the refund you seek, an approx figure may be all you need.

 

 

With respect, MBNA are required by the FSA/FCA rules to provide a breakdown showing exactly how they calculate the PPI Redress; MBNA are required to follow PS10/12 example 6!

[AfterMidnight]

With respect, MBNA are required by the FSA/FCA rules to provide a breakdown showing exactly how they calculate the PPI Redress; MBNA are required to follow PS10/12 example 6!

 

 

True, although slick32 has a point too, in that MBNA are very likely to offer no calculation or spreadsheet (unless pushed!)

 

 

Shelley - picking up an earlier point, you may well find that MBNA's eventually received calculations if a successful claim could vary somewhat (i.e. less) than your checking may suggest - depending on how the account has been operated by your friend (particularly if was a minimum or full monthly payer sometimes). Suffice to say that their method, and your own, may not tally in terms of method and result...sore point for a few of us, but perhaps a bridge to be crossed later if that happen to be the case...but forewarned is forearmed.

[slick132]

Hi Angry Cat,

 

My comments are based on the experiences of many here, including cases where even the FOS fail to convince banks to reveal their calculations.

 

They should not get away with it but the banks try to.

 

[angry cat]

True, although slick32 has a point too, in that MBNA are very likely to offer no calculation or spreadsheet (unless pushed!)

 

 

Shelley - picking up an earlier point, you may well find that MBNA's eventually received calculations if a successful claim could vary somewhat (i.e. less) than your checking may suggest - depending on how the account has been operated by your friend (particularly if was a minimum or full monthly payer sometimes). Suffice to say that their method, and your own, may not tally in terms of method and result...sore point for a few of us, but perhaps a bridge to be crossed later if that happen to be the case...but forewarned is forearmed.

 

Best push them (MBNA) then!!!

[angry cat]

Hi Angry Cat,

 

My comments are based on the experiences of many here, including cases where even the FOS fail to convince banks to reveal their calculations.

 

They should not get away with it but the banks try to.

 

 

Yes slick, of course they will try. MBNA, have got away with so much over the years...but the General Consumer is much more savvy now; thanks to Consumer Grumble Site Forums!

MBNA, as well as the other Financial Institutions, are obligated to follow the Rules as laid down by the FSA/FCA; it's black & white.

[Shelley181146]

If the card balance is incorrect then it is highly likely that the 8% interest figures shown by the sheet are incorrect too.

 

The way to correct this is to work out what the balance was at the start of the period for which you have statements. Add that opening balance figure to the monthly spend for your first month's entry and that will force the card balance to be correct at the end of your first month and for all of the subsequent months.

 

Other than that, provided you have entered the figures correctly for monthly spend, payments and the PPI the spreadsheet will be OK.

 

You then have to take a view as to what might have happened during the missing period.

 

Don't forget, MBNA will do their own calculations anyway so the workings you are doing is more for your purposes to check any offer that might be made.

 

Hi ims21,

 

I have been trying to establish where I have been going wrong with this exercise and it appears that whichever way around I try, it doesn't come up correctly.

My first mistake was to alter the 'E' column (didn't go far enough across to see the red note, lol) Then because I only have statements with card balances on from late 2002 I tried again but it just says 'REF'.

I have attached a spreadsheet and would really be grateful if you could take a look to see where I might be going wrong please?

My friend certainly doesn't pay hundred's over the odds on his balance so why on earth they appear to be in credit heaven knows?

It's probably something so simple but at 4am my eye's are in desperate need to close for awhile, lol.

 

Regards

Shelley

[ims21]

You have highlighted a balance in late 2002 which I assume is the first one for which you have a statement for.

 

How have you arrived at the monthly spend and repayment amounts for the period prior to this i.e. where has that information come from?

[AfterMidnight]

Hi Shelley

 

 

While I can appreciate you wanting to check in advance and make your case as watertight and value-estimated as possible before making an approach to MBNA, the firm will often make a surprisingly quick decision, and self-employed-from-start is about as far as you need to go in terms of suitability checking... If true to form, MBNA in particular will indecently quickly get a cheque off to your friend, if the case looks like something difficult to challenge, which that would be. Basically - the standard form would IMHO be enough, and it could take 10 mins to fill in. MBNA will not be remotely interested in any calculations of your own, these are entirely for your own interest.

 

 

Problem is most likely to be, in my experience, that the value of what your friend is likely to be offered by MBNA will be lower than what is should be. Might not be, and this may not be a problem. Probably will be. Pop in a copy with the claim of the oldest available statement with PPI and it would be hard for MBNA to propose they only have six years records, so will assume just from that. Your friend's biggest problem though, should the claim be successful, will be that MBNA use their own highly idiosyncratic way of calculating redress - something that has taken people who are a bit further along the road than your friend much time and effort to even begin understanding. MBNA use apportioned accounts payments at the time to calculate PPI contributions, so don't use, say 21.9%. The devil though is in the details of manipulation of types of values - which are somewhat sleight-of-hand.

 

 

In your own place, I would work with my friend to fill in the standard form and now get that away. Keep it simple - "no proper value/return/cover run-through on sale, and self-employed = so just not covered". MBNA will typically issue a payment based on their own reckoning quickly. The cheque-accompanying or day-before-ish letter will have three lines of text giving "the calculation" summary. It will be highly questionable, but look as if FOS-official-method done. You can then request/argue for a calculation sheet please. This will, if pressed, eventually arrive, be called a V20C_B37 or similar, and will be something you cannot make head or tail of. In other words, MBNA will do their own calculation regardless what you may do at present, and if you reach the conclusion their calculation is incorrect, then you will typically challenge MBNA who will stall for months and months. The you complain to FOS who will take c. 18 months to even read your complaint.

 

 

Again, IMHO, I would make a simple start. Major on suitability checking being obviously not done. Accept the subsequent payment from MBNA (and tell them as so by registered post) as being an interim one to your friend and they should look forward to perhaps more in a couple of years. I am in no way saying that what MBNA does is acceptable, just that they have such a machine for dealing with claims that things will proceed their way regardless of anything much you can do, so making a simple start is strongly suggested...

[Shelley181146]

You have highlighted a balance in late 2002 which I assume is the first one for which you have a statement for.

 

How have you arrived at the monthly spend and repayment amounts for the period prior to this i.e. where has that information come from?

Hi ims21

You are correct in the first assumption re late 2002 and the information prior to that date came from transactional data from failed SAR request when MBNA had already advised that they did not hold any info prior to 2002. Subsequently rec'd data back to 2000 but it doesn't provide card balances.

I will get the questionnaire off to MBNA if you think it's advisable to do at this point. I understand what you are saying but my friend would have preferred an indication to the value of their claim but I will convey your advice.

[ims21]

There is nothing to stop you getting the claim in and get the ball rolling.

 

As has been said, they will do their own calculations anyway.

 

As far as the spreadsheet goes, the error would appear to be in the attempt to reconstruct statements from the transaction listing that you have. The only way to do that would be to look at the reconstruction of earlier statements again.

[Shelley181146]

There is nothing to stop you getting the claim in and get the ball rolling.

 

As has been said, they will do their own calculations anyway.

 

As far as the spreadsheet goes, the error would appear to be in the attempt to reconstruct statements from the transaction listing that you have. The only way to do that would be to look at the reconstruction of earlier statements again.

 

So if I remove the transactional data and start spreadsheet on line 18 with the first statement data thats as close to a correct figure I will get? I tried that first before I received the transactional data and it showed a lot of minus figures in the 'E' column.

just feels like I am going round in circles

I know After midnight says MBNA will have their own calcs but it's so frustrating, argh.......

[ims21]

If you post up the transaction history and first couple of statements as a PDF I'll have a look at it tomorrow for you.

 

It is just a maths exercise in trying to reconstruct statement periods from a transaction list. If we can get that bit pretty much right, the period for when you do have statements will fall into place.

[Shelley181146]

This is the spreadsheet I had worked on from the transactional information and realised the 'E' column wasn't calculating correctly.

 

I have identified October 2002 as the point of the first statement.

 

I have met with my friend today and provided a completed questionnaire/letter for his perusal and we will meet again the week-end to discuss tac-tics.

 

Huge thanks in advance ims21.

 

Regards

 

Shelley

[Shelley181146]

Apologies ims21, I just realised you requested the file to be pdf. I'm not a great techy sorry

[ims21]

It was the transaction history I was looking for Shelley.

 

I can have a look and see if I can help you reconstruct earlier statements so that your running balance is correct all the way through.

[Shelley181146]

It was the transaction history I was looking for Shelley.

 

I can have a look and see if I can help you reconstruct earlier statements so that your running balance is correct all the way through.

 

I dont have the facility to scan transaction info so would have to itemise it as it is in the document MBNA sent. Will that be ok?

[ims21]

No camera phone or digital camera?

[Shelley181146]

No camera phone or digital camera?

I have just dropped the info off to my sister to scan in for me so hopefully will be able to send shortly

If that doesn't work then I will try the camera option. I always tend to think PC options rather than digital in general. You've opened my mind to that. Thanks

[Shelley181146]

Hello ims21,

My friend has received an offer from MBNA today with a mini breakdown of how they have calculated it - however, until I can get a better idea of how much this claim is worth we won't know how to respond to their offer.

I am unable to put up an pdf file copy of transactional info due to technical problems but I will attempt to attach a few pages and see what you think if that's ok?

 

I'm not very good with the technical stuff so apologies in advance

 

Shelley