Section 57 CCA? Car dealer refusing to cancel/refund deposit

[Redletter]

I placed an order for a new car with dealer 'A' on 15th March and paid £250 deposit but the finance agreement has not yet been executed. Today I was offered a better deal on what dealer 'b' claimed was the same car from Fords main Dagenham stock. This means dealer 'A' can't have allocated the car to me despite saying he would. Today dealer 'B' had the car allocated to them (also a Ford dealer). Dealer 'B' assured me I would get my deposit back from dealer 'A' as the finance had not yet been set up and I was within my rights to cancel. I agreed to buy the car from dealer 'B' given the better deal and paid £500 deposit. However, dealer 'A' is refusing to cancel the order and says I must honour my 'agreement to buy' the car. I spoke to trading standards who told me to quote s57 of CCA which they said gives me the right of withdrawal from the 'proposed agreement' and that when a purchase is made using finance and the finance is cancelled then the linked agreement must also be cancelled and any deposit refunded. I am now worried that I may be obliged to buy 2 cars! Dealer 'B' has assured me that dealer 'A' is trying it on. Please help!

[honeybee13]

Hello there.

 

I'll move your thread to the motoring forum and hope the guys will be able to help you.

 

My best, HB

[sailor sam]

This should be pretty straight forward to be honest (according to what you say). As dealer 'B' 'assured' you that you would get your deposit back from dealer 'A', why don't you suggest to dealer 'B' that they refund you £250 that you have paid them to offset the deposit you paid dealer 'A'. Otherwise, have you thought of contacting Ford Customer Service?

 

As far as your 'agreement' with dealer 'A' is concerned, you have only ordered that car which hasn't yet been supplied thus the 'agreement' hasn't been completed. This only takes place when the car has been registered in your name. Unless that has happened, dealer 'A' have not suffered any losses for them to peruse, especially after just 4 days.

 

Please Note

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[Redletter]

Hello there.

 

I'll move your thread to the motoring forum and hope the guys will be able to help you.

 

My best, HB

Thanks I'm a little rusty it's all changed since I was last on here!

[Redletter]

Thanks sailor Sam.

I have received an email from dealer A dismissing my request to cancel, insisting that I can only cancel the credit agreement but not the agreement in relation to buying the vehicle. This is from the sales manager...

 

"I understand you now wish to cancel your order but regret that this is unacceptable to us as this vehicle has been contracted in your name and is on its way from the factory

as per your instructions"

 

Firstly they told me this vehicle was at "dagtops" which is short for "Dagenham transport operations" and that they had held it for me-now they are saying it is coming from the"factory".

However dealer B claims that they have taken thus exact vehicle into their stock and that it is unlikely thee are 2 with this exact specification at "dagtops".

Dealer A insist the car is allocated to them!

Dealer A goes onto say.I understand that you wish to exercise your right to cancel as per Consumer Credit Directive. I would point out that this covers the finance aspect of the deal and not the order for the vehicle itself.

*

I therefore expect you to honour your contract as agreed and look forward to handing the car over to you in due

course.

However I have since quoted s57 of CCA as per Trading Standards advice. They say that the order for the car is treated as a linked agreement and is cancellable with a refund of any monies.

Will have to see what tomorrow (today!) brings!

[Redletter]

I have just been reading up on the CCA1974 can any1 give their opinion as to whether this is relevant to the 'agreement' I have signed to say that I will purchase the vehicle from either dealer A or dealer B?

Thanks.....

1a "a transaction entered into by the debtor with any other person is a linked transaction in relation to any prospective (principal) agreement of which it does not form part if, (b) the principal agreement is a debtor-creditor-supplier agreement and the transaction is to be financed by the principal agreement".

 

(3) "a linked transaction entered into before the making of the principal agreement has no effect until such time (if any) as that agreement is made".

 

S57 (1)*

The withdrawal of a party from a prospective regulated agreement*shall operate to apply this part to the*agreement, any linked transaction and any other thing done in anticipation of the making of the agreement as it would if the agreement were made and then cancelled under section 69. (section 69 states the notice given will serve to (1) cancel the agreement and any linked transaction and (ii) to withdraw any offer by the debtor to enter into a linked transaction.

S57(2) the giving to a party of a written or oral notice which, however expressed, indicates the intention of the other party to withdraw from a prospective regulated agreement operates as a withdrawal from it.

Where the agreement, if made, would not be a cancellable agreement, subsection (1) shall nevertheless apply as if the contrary were the case.

[sailor sam]

Ford have a dealer transfer set up so it really dosn't matter which dealer you purchase the car from. Dealer 'A' will not suffer any losses apart from their commission on selling the car. Also, until the car actually is in their possession, they cannot register it as far as i am aware and until such time it is registered, it remains the property of the manufacturer. As far as I am concerned, the only legal procedure open to dealer A would be to retain your deposit (or part of) to cover any admin work they have done. In actual fact, you could possibly take them to court to recover some of your deposit and they would have to prove their 'losses'. Further more, if you cancel the fiance agreement (which won't kick in anyway until delivery), how do they expect you to pay for it?

 

My suggestion is to speak to dealer B (reminding them that they stated that your deposit paid to dealer A will be refunded) and ask them why they can't simply arrange a dealer transfer of the car which has been 'allocated' to you and is on it's way from the factory (which will not be in the UK by the way), or contact Ford UK customer service and ask them for their advice.

 

What delivery date were you given by dealer A by the way?

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[Redletter]

Hi thanks for your reply. I was awake until 2am reviewing the relevant sections of the CCA1974 and although rather tired I do feel better at being more familiar with the regulations.

S70(1a) on the cancellation of a regulated agreement, and of any linked transaction any sum paid by the debtor under or in contemplation of the agreement or transaction including any item in the total charge for credit shall become repayable.

I have also been again to dealer B and shown them the response I received from dealer A. They informed me that even at the point where the car is physically at the dealership, on the day of signing the agreement I could change my mind and walk away. They would be obliged to return me to my pre-contract position-even so far as if they had sold on a part exchange they would have to refund it.

They have spoken to ford credit on my behalf and explained the situation who are now aware that I do not wish to buy 2 cars. They said as long as I haven't signed any finance documents for the agreement with dealer A (which I haven't) I can just forget about it and that purchase wil not be concluded.

Dealer B have shown me the allocation of a vehicle matching my specification with their destination code confirmed for delivery.

In answer to your question I was not given a specific delivery date but told they would be in touch some time this week.

[sailor sam]

I would ask Ford credit to put that in writing to you. What has dealer B said about your deposit? I think you would have a case against dealer A to recover your deposit but that may be a complex business for you. In my opinion, dealer B should attempt to get your deposit back for you as part of the deal, even if it means involving Ford Customer Services. After all, dealer A (their agent in effect) have handled this badly.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[oddjobbob]

Well dealer A might have handled it badly but the OP is no better I'm afraid.

 

You just can't go around signing things that say you're going to buy a car and then welch on the deal... how would you feel if they just took your deposit then sold the specific car to someone else and then just returned your deposit and said ''tough someone else gave us a bit more mnoey for it''?

 

You'd be on here complaining!

 

You can't really have things both ways.

 

I've no idea what the lawmnight be but I'm completely unsurprised that dealer A is being as awkward as possible.

 

I do however hope you get your deposit back, as its a lot of money to lose.

 

Sorry, but I always call it how I see it!

[sailor sam]

Dealer A has suffered no losses at all after just 4 days. The other point is that the OP is still buying the car all be it from dealer B. Dealer B is obviously offering a better deal on the same car. My only issue is that dealer B has apparently assured the OP that dealer 'A' will refund his deposit so in my opinion dealer B should be assisting in this. Sorry but after 4 days I don't think the OP has done anything wrong. If the car had actually been in the possession of Dealer A, I may of thought differently. To a certain extent, I think the issue is for the 2 dealers and Ford themselves to sort out.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[Redletter]

 

You just can't go around signing things that say you're going to buy a car and then welch on the deal... !

 

Well apparently one is within their rights to do so right up until the moment of signing according to Trading Standards and the reason we have these rights is to protect us from people like dealer A who think that they can operate outside of the regulations and try and bully people who arent aware of such rights into going ahead with a deal which may not be in their best interests. The whole point is to give one time to digest what has been said and to be able to make a decision outside of the pressurised selling environment. In this case dealer A told me things that weren't true in order to seal the deal. He told me he had secured the car so if that was the case how was dealer B able to transfer it to his stock? He also told me his was the best price which was also not the case.

The whole point of the CCA is to protect consumers from high pressure sales tactics and verbal assurances that don't materialise and to give us the right to change our minds!

[Redletter]

Thanks. Dealer B only ever stated that I have a right to get my deposit back as this is normal practice for them in this situation. They stated that the CCA requires that the person withdrawing from the deal should be returned to the pre-contract position which I was in before I walked into the dealership, which would include me having my deposit. Dealer B it would seem is aware of the law and abides by it whereas dealer A obviously has no regard for it and will say anything to try and force me to proceed. They should just accept that they have lost the sale an get over it. The way they are behaving is shocking! I'm glad now that I have taken my business elsewhere. As for the deposit, my credit card company are sending me the forms to dispute the payment.

[oddjobbob]

Well apparently one is within their rights to do so right up until the moment of signing according to Trading Standards and the reason we have these rights is to protect us from people like dealer A who think that they can operate outside of the regulations and try and bully people who arent aware of such rights into going ahead with a deal which may not be in their best interests. The whole point is to give one time to digest what has been said and to be able to make a decision outside of the pressurised selling environment. In this case dealer A told me things that weren't true in order to seal the deal. He told me he had secured the car so if that was the case how was dealer B able to transfer it to his stock? He also told me his was the best price which was also not the case.

The whole point of the CCA is to protect consumers from high pressure sales tactics and verbal assurances that don't materialise and to give us the right to change our minds!

 

That's good, in that case you should get your money back then.

 

So presumably it would have been ok for dealer A to sell the car to someone else for more money then? Or is that different?

 

The fact remains that you left a deposit to buy a car and welched on the deal you made. You can't blame dealer A for that - they surely didn't put a gun to yuor head to make you sign or steal the £250 out of your pocket did they?

 

You bought a car from somewhere then found you could buy it cheaper elsewhere. It happens, and what you did wrongly was to leave a deposit to buy the before you found out you could buy it cheaper.

 

That's not dealer A's fault, they made you an offer to buy and you accepted it.

 

And sam claims dealer A has suffered no loss, but they have lost their potential profit on the deal, and you need to appreciate that that's why they're being awkward.

 

I hope the law is on your side anyway and yuo get your money back, just calling it how I see it, and that's all I ever do.

 

The dealer (A) is being funny about it because in his mnid he'd done a deal and now he hasn't. I daresay you'll get repaid your deposit at some point, and I hope you do.

[Redletter]

Have you never taken something back to Argos having bought it then changed your mind? Or found the same item at a lower price and bought it there instead? If one is within their rights to do so then why not. I don't see Argos spitting their dummy out everytime someone returns an item having complete the transaction in buying it from them. In my case the transaction was incomplete. They had not even reserved the goods.

[Redletter]

I don't know how to highlight quotes on my iPod it doesn't work!

With regard to your comment about dealer A selling the car to someone else at a higher price.

Yes he was going to sell it to ME at a higher price than that of dealer B and also as he had failed to secure the car from Fords stock system ANY other dealer could have sold it over the weekend and I wouldn't be able to get my spec!

[Redletter]

I appreciate that what I did may be disappointing to dealer A and a little but underhanded of me but really dealer B is the one stealing the customer and if dealer A had given me the best deal available as he claimed he had then I would not have been swayed toward dealer B.

They are all too good at making false statements and false promises and I'm really glad that I didn't do business with them as however disappointed they are they should still respect my rights and abide by the law.

[oddjobbob]

Yes I have taken stuff back when I've changed my mind, but never taken anything back becasue it was cheaper elsewhere... to be quite candid once I've bought I absolutely stop looking.

 

But it is slightly different in that argos, wickes, b&q etc normally give you a 'price guarantee' where they refund the 'difference plus 10%' or whatever, and the other thing is that the £ involved is usually quite small compared to a car... I wouldn't even bother driving back to argos with a TV that I could buy in Tescos £20 cheaper as by the time I've been back to Argos, got my money back then gone to Tesco, I've wasted probably 2 hours and £15 in petrol and it's not worth the time or effort.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong in law or anything, merely pointing out that you took up probably an hour or two of someone's time, bought a car, paid a deposit, signed something to say you were going to do so......

 

and then didn't....

 

and that's why they're being awkward about it all.

 

And no you're wrong that he was going to sell it to you at a higher price... that was the deal you agreed, you bought, they sold, at that mutually agreed price that's business.

 

The fact that dealer B was able to give you a better deal has nothing to do with dealer A, it is a separate matter.

 

Also do bear in mind that dealer B will always tell you that getting your deposit back from elsewhere is going to be a breze.. lets face it, if they'd said you'd probably struggle then you wouldn't have done another deal with dealer B would you?

 

i'm sorry if this isn't what oyu might want ot hear, and as stated I have no idea of the law, just giving it to you how I see it.

[Redletter]

I agree that dealer A will be pee'd off as I would be but when I asked about part ex he told me it wasn't feasible as he clearly couldn't be bothered. He even advise me to VT the credit on my present car to avoid having to sell it!

Dealer B gave me a good price for my part ex, a better price for my new car and is more local.

[sailor sam]

Your missing a significant point Bob. Dealer A hadn't actually secured the car to sell anyway... Dealer B did.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[Redletter]

Also dealer A is a Ford main dealer as is dealer B so if dealer B can give me this deal that must mean that the best deal available was not offered by dealer A despite his claim that this is the best deal available with any Ford dealer.

No he didn't hold a gun to my head but he gave me the sales pitch full of exaggerations and untruths and made me believe that if I didn't sign there and then I would miss out on this truly amazing deal!

He told me this car was a one off but now he insists it is still available to him and 'contracted' to me despite the fact that dealer B has shown me the documentation allocating an identical car to them. So if he did secure a vehicle of this spec there must be 2 the same an therefore he clearly lied to me.

[oddjobbob]

Fords are a very common car do its entirely possible that there are two very similar cars available on the dealer network.. i really have no idea.

 

No sam, I 've not missed the point at all. Dealer A took a deposit and were under the impression they had sold a car, when in fact the buyer pulled out later on after signing for it and saying they were buying it.

 

I fully understand about dealer A and dealer B etc, and the fact that dealer A said it was the best deal he could do... well in fairness he's hardly likely to say he could do a bit better is he? That would be laughable! The fact that dealer B can do a better deal has no vbearing on dealer A's integrity or performance.. .he made an offer, the buyer accepted it, dealer B was not in the equation at that point. And THAT is how business works.

 

The fact of the matter is that dealer A thought they had sold a car, someone in the dealership thought they had a bit of commission to come this month, and now they haven't.

 

That's precisely why they're being awkward... ie they've been messed about and now they're messing the OP about. It'scunderstandable, although a bit pointless if they've ultimately got to return the deposit.. .you may as well give it back with a good heart if its the case that you are compelled to anyway!

 

If he's allowed his deposit back under the law then I don't doubt he'll get it in the end, and I hope he does.

 

But I never missed any 'points' at all!

[Redletter]

Well I have sent the LBA by recorded delivery and today I got a reply from dealer A's area manager who claims that he too has taken advice from Yorkshire Trading Standards and claims that the agreement I signed to buy the car is legally binding and non-cancellable and as such they will not be returning my deposit on this occasion!

 

Can anyone please clarify?

Why are the Trading Standards telling me one thing and them another?

 

Is the agreement to buy the car covered as a linked agreement as per section 19 and cancellable under section and 69?

 

Am I interpreting the CCA correctly?

 

Anyone??

[sailor sam]

Well you may have to test it in court. But you do have dealer 'B' to back you up.... don't you? If it went to court, dealer A would have to explain their losses to the judge. according to your account, you could argue that there shouldn't be any because the car probably never reached them. You weren't even given a delivery date.

 

Their trading standards advice will be based on how they explained their version which no doubt missed some chosen key issues out, so I wouldn't worry about that too much.

 

You could run it by your trading standards again and tell them about this response.

 

Please Note

 

The advice I offer will be based on the information given by the person needing it. All my advice is based on my experiences and knowledge gained in working in the motor and passenger transport industries in various capacities. Although my advice will always be sincere, it should be used as guidence only.

 

I would always urge to seek face to face professional advice for clarification prior to taking any action.

 

Please click my reputation 'star' button at the bottom of my profile window on the left if you found my advice useful.

[oddjobbob]

I very much doubt that dealer B will give yuo a stement or naything 'against' dealer A. Ford Motor Co would take a very dim view of that.

 

Let's face facts here. It is NOT the job of any motor dealer to sell you a car at the lowest possible price and give you the best possible deal. Having said this they need to nmove metal, so often discounts can and should be had.

 

The fact of the matter is that the OP signed a documnet and left a deposit (is it described on the invoice as a deposit or part payment) to buy the car.

 

He then found he could do better elsewhere and decided to back out of the deal.

 

Despite the fact that the car was never in stock at dealer A, they have in fact suffered a 'loss' in that they will no longer receive the profit they would have made from what, after all, is a signed order for a motor car.

 

So that's why they're keeping your £250.

 

I've really no idea who is right or wrong as far as the law goes, if it's on the OP's side then he should get his money back, that is , after all, the law.

 

But I can understand the dealer's point of view, and their current awkwardness towards the OP.

 

Its not gonna be easy.........