Transport Investigations Ltd - no valid ticket. Is it worth submitting mitigation?

[MollyMog]

Hi,

 

Thanks in advance for taking the time to read/respond to my post.

 

I have just been sent a letter from Transport Investigations Ltd for travel with no valid ticket.

Looks like there's a lot of people in a similar postion from other posts on here (and elsewhere).

 

The letter states that they are considering prosecuting me under the the Railway Byelaws (2005)

or Regulation of Railways Act (1889),

and that I have to get back to them soon in writing with any mitigation I wish to be considered.

 

Detail:

The letter related to when I was stopped from buying my usual weekly ticket (which expired the day before) at my destination station (Cardiff Queen Street) by TIL staff, and interviewed.

[...and yes, following this, I now know that I should always get the ticket from my departure station, and not on the train or at the arrival station!].

 

Prior to being stopped, I could have bought my ticket at my departure station (but ran on to the train that day),

but couldn't on the train (as no guard/inspector came down the train on that day), and couldn't at Queen Street (as the TIL staff stopped me doing so).

 

There are several points I thought I should be making as part of a mitigation statement to TIL (or any letter to Arriva trains prior to that) which I've put below.

 

My question is: Do you think there's any point in me even giving my mitigation points (below)?..

. as I can't say I had a valid ticket for the journey I was making, as my weekly pass had expired the day before,

and presumeably that's what I'd end up being prosecuted for.

What would you do at this point?

 

Mitigation:

1- that I didn't know it was wrong to buy tickets on the train or at the destination station

2- that buying on the train, or destination station, is never challenged or even discouraged

(...and if it had been before this TIL 'sting', I would have known I shouldn't do it, and wouldn't have done it!)

3- that I was stopped from buying my weekly ticket by the TIL staff before the ticket officer could issue it

4- that it isn't even possible to leave my destination station without a ticket, due to the automated barriers in place there

5- that I buy a weekly ticket (every week for several years), so am obviously not looking to evade payment, and can prove this (as I pay by card)

 

Thanks again for taking the time to read/respond to my post.

[honeybee13]

Hello and welcome to CAG.

 

You seem to be caught up in a campaign against fare evasion that seems to be taking place in certain areas of Wales from what I understand as a follower of this forum.

 

I hope our transport guys will be along to comment on your suggested grounds for mitigation, as I don't know enough to comment on most of them.

 

I do know that if you board the train with no ticket, it's your responsibility to seek out a member of staff to buy a ticket rather than to wait for them to find you.

 

Hopefully you will have more comments here.

 

My best, HB

[MollyMog]

Thanks for your thoughts HB

[dx100uk]

1. you have travelled for years on trains - me thinks you knew too well.

2. the T&C are clearly displayed with posters etc, etc.

3.you must have a ticket to travel, they did not prevent you from getting one at before you travelled

4.you still need a ticket yes

5.that should be pointed out.

 

you need to be clear on other points Too:

 

it is for YOU to seek the ticket inspector to gain a ticket NOT await his arrival

thus again not helping your cause.

 

however

all that aside.

 

you need to write a grovelling letter in reply

offering to pay all cost and fines

and promise to never do it again.

 

include in your letter that you have tavelled by weekly tickets for XXX mts etc etc.

 

just state that your train was near to leaving and you ran for it.

 

you failed to understand that you must SEEK the guard to purchase a ticket on a train

 

if you put the last bit that is up to you

 

pers i'd not,

 

they might well check WHERE you have previously purchased your weeklies

 

if they find it was via a guard

,then they might be minded to think you've pulled this stunt before.

or tried too....

 

dx

[MrGates]

What is your boarding station, how long are you on the train for before getting to queen street? As has been pointed out already writing a reply back to TIL won't make things any worse.

[Old-CodJA]

It seems that the fact that the system of trust that the traveller will use the booking office to purchase a ticket before travelling in accordance with the byelaw has been extensively abused in some areas, and in common with other TOCs experiencing the same problems, a hard line is being taken by ATW.

 

Some stations have only a self service machine and the traveller is responsible for getting a ticket before travelling, ignorance of any legislation is not a defence. The National Rail Conditions of Carriage make clear it is up to the traveller to make time to buy a ticket. It is only permissible to get on a train without a ticket if there are no facilities at a station or if formal permission has been given by staff at the station and as dx100 has pointed out, it is then up to the person travelling to seek staff to pay on train, not the other way round.

 

The test case usually referred to in prosecuting these matters is the case of Corbyn (1978) where the Appeal Court Judges decided that if you don't buy a ticket when the booking office or machine was working at your station and just sit and wait to be asked to show a ticket or pay, then you can be considered to be intending to avoid the fare due.

 

When a traveller is found to be making a journey from a station where they could have bought a ticket, but did not, it isn't a good enough reason to say 'I intended to pay at the other end' because the traveller can never know for certain that facilities will be available or that inspectors will be there to make a check. Revenue inspectors can make spot checks anywhere at any time and the purpose is to ensure that people are using the facilities provided by the rail company. Those who are not can expect to be reported.

 

When someone is reported, whatever the situation, it is always worth responding with your explanation

Edited February 12, 2012 by Old-CodJA

[MollyMog]

Thanks for your thoughts dx, MrGates and Old-CodJA.

 

In answer to your questions MrGates, I get on at Penarth (it has a ticket office) and the journey takes a about 20 mins.

 

Obviously following this incident, I'm aware that I should only start my journey with a valid ticket before departure. I suppose I'm just finding it odd that they are even considering prosecuting for fare evasion in whatever form, when there is no way to evade paying for my journey; There are always several staff prior to the automatic barriers to pay at normal commuting times (taking fares from all local stations), and nearly always the guard/inspector who comes down the train for any fares from all local stations. It wouldn make any sense for anyone to attempt to evade puchasing a ticket, as you always need to buy one to complete the journey

[honeybee13]

Hello again. I think your argument could fall down if you read what OC said earlier. Also, some people buy a ticket for a shorter journey than the one they actually did, and don't pay the full fare.

The test case usually referred to in prosecuting these matters is the case of Corbyn (1978) where the Appeal Court Judges decided that if you don't buy a ticket when the booking office or machine was working at your station and just sit and wait to be asked to show a ticket or pay, then you can be considered to be intending to avoid the fare due.

 

My best, HB

[Old-CodJA]

Thanks for your thoughts dx, MrGates and Old-CodJA.

 

In answer to your questions MrGates, I get on at Penarth (it has a ticket office) and the journey takes a about 20 mins.

 

Obviously following this incident, I'm aware that I should only start my journey with a valid ticket before departure. I suppose I'm just finding it odd that they are even considering prosecuting for fare evasion in whatever form, when there is no way to evade paying for my journey; There are always several staff prior to the automatic barriers to pay at normal commuting times (taking fares from all local stations), and nearly always the guard/inspector who comes down the train for any fares from all local stations. It wouldn make any sense for anyone to attempt to evade puchasing a ticket, as you always need to buy one to complete the journey

 

 

There is also a straightforward offence of boarding a train without first buying a ticket where facilities were available to the traveller.

 

This is a breach of National Railway Byelaw 18.1. They do not always have to prove a traveller intended to avoid paying.

[MollyMog]

There is also a straightforward offence of boarding a train without first buying a ticket where facilities were available to the traveller.

 

This is a breach of National Railway Byelaw 18.1. They do not always have to prove a traveller intended to avoid paying.

 

Thanks OC and HC. I can't argue that I had a valid ticket, as I was buying my new weekly when I was stopped. It just seems odd that Arriva would not want to discourage payment on trains, or at destination stations, at the time it occurs for people that can pay at their station. [and yes, I can see they are obviously looking to discourage it now through taking the action they have]. But if a guard/inspector had just said once over the last few years 'You mustn't buy on the train in future. You need to use your ticket office or you may be prosecuted' that would have been enough for me not to have done it.

[MrGates]

As i have said before, at what point do you use a service and expect to pay half way through using it or at the end of using the service, As harsh as ATW actions seems it is fully warranted as ATW invest alot of time and money in supplying ticket offices and ticket machines for people just to ignore them.

 

Your not saving yourself any time by buying a ticket at your destination as more often than not a que will form. Also if the barriers at Queen street were open what would have happened then.

[timbo58]

To be fair the barrier line do not know where you boarded, it is a common ruse to claim a shorter journey than that which was actually used.

[button_muffin]

Honestly, talk to a lawyer!

 

I have been to citizens advice, the guy there said get a lawyer because he did a similar thing and his case was dropped 1hr before it was due to go to court.

 

[NO ADVERTS] which does free 20min consultation between 4 and 7pm on a Tuesday - you just show up[NO ADVERTS PLEASE]

 

It's recommended to say as little as possible to those prosecuting, try to write to both the prosecutors and rail company to offer an out of court settlement and an apology.

 

Even if they refuse, this can be used in your defense in court because you tried to make amends.

 

It's also recomended to show up on the court day and represent yourself.

 

The prosecutors have 6 months to arrange for a summons and get it to you, otherwise they will be out of time and the case will be dropped.

 

Even if you don't get representation, a free consultation will help you plan your course of action.

[Old-CodJA]

Honestly, talk to a lawyer!

 

I have been to citizens advice, the guy there said get a lawyer because he did a similar thing and his case was dropped 1hr before it was due to go to court.

 

[NO ADVERTS] which does free 20min consultation between 4 and 7pm on a Tuesday - you just show up[NO ADVERTS PLEASE]

 

It's recommended to say as little as possible to those prosecuting, try to write to both the prosecutors and rail company to offer an out of court settlement and an apology.

 

Even if they refuse, this can be used in your defense in court because you tried to make amends.

 

It's also recomended to show up on the court day and represent yourself.

 

The prosecutors have 6 months to arrange for a summons and get it to you, otherwise they will be out of time and the case will be dropped.

 

Even if you don't get representation, a free consultation will help you plan your course of action.

 

 

You may choose the extra expense of a lawyer, who may well make no difference to the outcome other than to cost you another fee. It would depend on what you are actually charged with.

 

As others have said, there is always value in writing to the company to see if they will resolve the matter with you and without court action, but the idea that you can 'tell the court that you offered to make amends later' and that is a guarantee to get their case overturned, is pie in the sky I'm afraid.

 

TOCs can choose to settle, but are never obliged to do so.