Announcement: ESA claimants now have the option of having their WCA recorded

[**Margaret**]

:Good News :?::

 

http://dpac.uk.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/WCAAL1C_0713-21.pdf?eefd72

 

Now, that wasn't too difficult was it. Personally I'd have preferred the info about audio recorded assessments in the AL1 appointment letter. Or even better, where it should be; on the ESA50!!! But we can't be having that cos DWATO have neither machines nor personnel to cope. And, par for the course, they remain economical with the truth about audio recorded by claimant assessments. As does;

 

http://blog.atoshealthcare.com/2013/08/dwp-wca-audio-recording-frequently-asked-questions/

 

For newcomers to officially audio recorded by claimant assessments:

 

The machine has to be capable of producing two cassette tapes or compact discs recorded simultaneously. To date, the only machines for which there's written confirmation of approval are the Neal audio recorders used by DWATO, which have a minimum price tag of £1,400.

 

Earlier this year there was a suggestion from DWATO that two identical dictaphones might be an acceptable alternative, but so far as I know there's still no written confirmation as to an acceptable make/model. Not for lack of trying on my part since my latest appointment for an audio recorded assessment was cancelled in June. (Turned out that it was for lack of a pinocchio, but that's another story.)

 

In the meantime:

 

http://dpac.uk.net/2013/08/has-the-dwp-let-you-know-that-you-can-ask-for-your-esa-atos-face-to-face-assessment-to-be-recorded/

 

And:

For the AL1C enclosure, DWATO have abandoned the pretence that interviews for employment n support allowance are medical assessments/examinations.

 

Margaret.

Edited August 14, 2013 by **Margaret**

[nolegion]

Many thanks for that round-up of developments, Margaret,much of it fresh news to me.

 

I will 'go consider' the detail, but it seems to me in the round, that DWATO is just maintaining the same ol' unreasonable obstructions to recording – in contravention of the legal advice they received back in 2010.

 

Hoban doubtless plans some silly announcement when even this (minimal) level of publicity hasn't had time to register statistically. Myprediction is that this will blow up in his face. It is not illegal to record covertly, and even DWATO misinformation no longer claims that it is. The more obstructions raised, the more people will so record.

[**Margaret**]

:Appropriate Devices and DWATO:

 

From Work n Pensions frequently asked questions;

 

'Claimants can use their own audio recording equipment - providing they use appropriate equipment that can provide two copies ......'

 

From the Tatos website;

 

'What recording equipment can you use? Acceptable media types at present are standard CD and audio tapes only.'

 

From the latest (07/13) AL1C enclosure;

 

'If you would like ...... to audio record the assessment yourself,'

 

Government ministers continue to reassure their colleagues and claimants alike, that claimants can record work capability assessments. In the wake of my latest let down from Tatos, the reality;

 

No response to enquiries of their customer relations, as to an acceptable make/model of appropriate device or dictaphone for openly recorded by claimant interviews.

A resources clerk offered to find out about Tatos approval process for dictaphones.

Advice from a resources clerk and a regional manager was to wait for one of their machines.

To date there haven't been any, audio recorded by a claimant using dictaphones, assessments in the East Midlands.

My assessment was cancelled cos 'the healthcare professional who does the recorded assessments was on sick leave'. Whatever happened to their amended contracts?

 

Three years after legal advice to the contrary, DWATO continue to make audio recorded by claimant work capability (and personal independence) assessments nigh on impossible.

 

Margaret.

 

The translation for appropriate devices appears to be; dual deck compact disc/cassette tape machines with a minimum price tag of £1,400 and, as yet unspecified, dictaphones.

Edited August 21, 2013 by **Margaret**

[nolegion]

Let us see how DWATO tries to fob off this recent FoI enquiry within the next few weeks:-

 

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/audio_recording_by_claimants_of#incoming-420992

 

I think it is clear that the enquirer intends to take the matter to the Information Commissioner, and I have to say the set of points raised in advance looks 'watertight' to me.

Edited August 21, 2013 by nolegion

[**Margaret**]

:nolegion:

 

Being absolutely of DWATO's duplicity, after a month of evasion, fob offs and generally going round in ever decreasing circles, I'm watching the above mentioned freedom of info request as well.

 

Margaret.

Edited August 21, 2013 by **Margaret**

[Guest]

And me.....

[**Margaret**]

::

 

Although DWATO have yet to find an audio recorder and an assessor who's trained to use it, at a Tatos centre I can access, they appear to have found some new info that neither I nor my doctor know about.

 

From Tatos:

 

Dated 27th August 2013

 

'We recently asked you to attend a medical assessment on 27th August 2013 ......

We have now received more information and we no longer need you to come to this assessment.'

 

My file's been recalled by Jobcentreplus. The processor wasn't saying why, but there's no suggestion of 'failure to attend'.

 

Payment of incapacity benefit will continue until I hear from them.

 

Suits me for now, Margaret.

Edited September 1, 2013 by **Margaret**

[Guest]

very interesting.....

[SWLABR9]

Make sure you hang onto that or they'll be accusing you of not turning up!

[**Margaret**]

: :rant: :

 

More DWATO duplicity and evasion, part one;

 

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/audio_recording_by_claimants_of#incoming-427598

 

A not entirely unexpected let down, which makes a complete mockery of every ministerial proclamation on the issue, and the recent flurry of hard won printed info. I wish the enquirer every success with the info commissioner.

 

N another , Margaret.

[**Margaret**]

: :rant: :

 

More DWATO duplicity and evasion, part two;

 

In the wake of the above freedom of info response my husband decided to chase the resources clerk who offered, two months ago, to find out about Tatos approval process for dictaphones. The clerk wasn't saying what, if anything, he'd found out. Apparently the info's no longer relevant cos Tatos don't have an outstanding referral for me. :?:

 

Margaret.

[nolegion]

Many thanks for the update, Margaret.

 

Suggestion in several parts:

 

1. You are an established and assiduous adviser on certain benefits. I am sure many here would be glad to acknowledge that.

 

2 Use the prefix "141" if available on your phone, or otherwise protect your identity.

 

3. Decline to give your own N.I number. Say that you are not telephoning about yourself but on behalf of several you advise on benefits whose NI nimbers you don't have to hand. (True– and I, for one, am looking forward to your next advice.)

 

4. Give any name by which you might genuinely be called. I know someone whose middle name is Robert. He says "Mr Robert" (true), and declines to give further details.

 

5. Say that a number of those you advise on benefits - with assessments which are likely to be soon but who have yet to receive their next misery-go-round letter - want to know whether a given 'dictaphone' model XYZ is acceptable (true) so they can set about purchasing (true). The Omega model specified in that ongoing particular FoI you mention would do admirably. Or any other that takes your fancy.

 

6. From previous posts, I know you will be ready for the attempts at evasion. It's not their business why claimants might want to use 2 recorders rather than 'rely' on a DWATO recording, but the repeated delay in getting a WCA is a fine reason should you choose to give one. The initial 'operative' will be lost if you can't give him or her a 'nearest town', in which one of the claimants you advise lives, for the purpose of referring you a to booking clerk in a regional centre, though. Take your pick. We are all here at CAG, I have no doubt.

 

7. Ask for their approval or refusal of the equipment to be put in writing to you. They will say they can't do that, but have a 'neutral' address ready just in case.

 

Just a suggestion, but the more of us who do this and report on the net about it...

[nolegion]

" Finally, there is a public interest in openness and transparency. This public interest is particularly marked in this case. There is no doubt that some claimants have a deep mistrust of the whole Work Capability Assessment process. They may suspect the government is not acting to safeguard the interests of those who are genuinely unfit for work and is attempting to frustrate their ability to challenge the fairness of the process. It is absolutely not for the Commissioner to express a view on the whether such suspicions are well founded. However he does recognise that whilst such suspicion exists there is an increased public interest in disclosing the legal advice on which the DWP's policy on this matter is based. Furthermore, withholding the advice simply deepens that suspicion. "

 

(From an ICO decision. See, 01 12 13:-

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/the_rights_of_those_examined_for#outgoing-252110)

[**Margaret**]

: :rant: :

 

More DWATO duplicity and evasion, part three;

 

Gosh! Four months since I've updated this thread. Probably cos there's not a lot to update it with.

 

We've used :nolegion:'s suggested tactics in the past, but we didn't need to during the final months of last year. As our area was down to one dual compact disc recorder, we had two claimants (complete with national insurance numbers) who chose the dictaphones route. Or tried to!!! One of whom was getting pretty desperate cos her three hundred and sixty five days of assessment rate employment n support ran out!

 

Outcome of this charade that claimants can use two identical dictaphones with standard audio cassette tapes:

 

Let the resources clerk know what you want to use and he'll let 'them' know. Turn up with said recorders to be told; 'sorry we don't know anything about it'.

 

The resources clerk will find out about the approval process for dictaphones, sometime never.

 

And that electronic mail trail? She can vaguely remember something about it.

 

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/149151/response/380326/attach/3/email%20Trail.pdf

 

Margaret.

[**Margaret**]

:And The Slightly Better News (for now):

 

In June 13 DWATO relaxed the four week cut off point to wait for one of their audio recorders. Since then;

 

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2013-11-08a.174659.h

 

But despite two revised versions during 2013, DWATO still don't mention the option on an ESA50 questionnaire.

Margaret.

[nolegion]

Many thanks for the updates, Margaret.

[**Margaret**]

:Personal Independence Payments:

 

The charade initiated by Ms McVey (#1104) continues;

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/personal-independence-payment-assessment-guide-for-assessment-providers

(Pages 37 - 39)

 

Like its partner in crime;

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/work-capability-assessment-handbook-for-healthcare-professionals

 

There's absolutely no indication of the true restrictions on overtly audio recorded by claimant assessments. Nothing about the min £1,400 price tag for the only dual audio recorder approved by DWATO. And nothing about the two appropriate devices purportedly allowed for work capability assessments. Probably cos to date, to the best of my knowledge, there haven't been any assessments recorded on two identical audio cassette or compact disc recorders.

 

Should anyone reading this have openly recorded an assessment by Atos or Capita, please let us know.

 

Since when does taking an audio record of an interview equate to 'failure to participate' Once again, Work n Pensions appear to have 'overlooked' their own legal advisers;

 

'Legal advice has been obtained to confirm that recording of assessments for the claimant must be allowed without unreasonable obstructions.'

 

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/rfp_27_recording_medical_assessm#incoming-339826

 

So why the presumption for disallowance:?: And conspicuous by its absence, mention of a claimant's right to take notes. For some very stressed claimants, a second best option to the risk of disallowance.

 

Wonder how long the current evaluation, of audio recorded by Atos assessments, will take:?: All those oh so so difficult statistics:roll:

 

Margaret.

[nolegion]

The DWP is still telling claimants and their advisors that the DWP cannot say, in writing and in advance of any medical assessment, that any specified equipment for use by a claimant to record will be permitted.

 

See here:-

 

http://ico.org.uk/~/media/documents/decisionnotices/2014/fs_50515864.ashx

 

I think this is deceitful and disgraceful.

 

Anybody who has specific examples of DWATO refusing or accepting any particular equipment (preferably with, at least approximately when, and in any event with make, precise model, and if possible, price) would gladly be taken note of by the original freedom of information enquirer, if posted in this thread.

 

(I sincerely hope CAG would not construe any such as remotely intended as 'advertising', and it could materially assist the appeal the enquirer intends to mount.)

 

Alternatively, you can contact him through the What Do They Know site's email system although you would need to register there, and he says he is unlikely to be able to acknowledge any large number of contacts.

 

(ref:- https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/audio_recording_by_claimants_of#incoming-420992)

 

.

[**Margaret**]

: :flypig: :

 

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/work-capability-assessment-audio-recording-of-face-to-face-assessments-faqs

 

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/pip-audio-recording-consultations.pdf

 

Not quite sure where 'no legal right to an audio recorded assessment' accords with;

 

'...... recording of assessments for the claimant must be allowed without unreasonable obstructions.'

 

:For Information Only:

 

During May 13, we sailed past the first anniversary of DWATO's attempts to arrange an audio recorded assessment in connection with my benefit claim. With three appointments already cancelled for lack of an audio recorder, it was time to enquire about recording my assessment ourselves. And yes, we considered the covert recording option (keyfob, pen, mobile phone) but we'd only just recovered from an upheld tribunal for incapacity benefit and it was too soon to risk a repeat performance.

 

Among my other crimes against DWATO, I belong to a self-help group for support to manage my condition. Praps we could club together to buy a dual audio cassette recorder? But of course, we'd need to check that it met the 'reasonable conditions'. Cue a freedom of info request.

 

'Does a T-A-S-C-A-M 202 MK.5 Cassette Recorder comply with the Department's 'reasonable conditions' for an audio recorded, by claimant, work capability assessment?'

 

'The Freedom of Information Act ...... does not include either confirming opinions held by correspondents or entering into a discussion.'

 

:???: When, if ever, will DWATO learn that quoting legislation doesn't answer the question? This machine is capable of recording two tapes simultaneously. Currently it retails at around £400.00.

 

A few days later, in the wake of the disclosed electronic mail trail from Atos, which specifies Dictaphones.

 

'Do two Philips 388 Analogue Pocket Memo dictation machines comply with the Department's 'reasonable conditions' for an audio recorded, by claimant, work capability assessment?

 

'...... the Department is not obliged to comply with a subsequent identical or substantially similar request ......'

 

Like most Dictaphones these machines use mini cassettes. In my opinion, the subsequent requirement for standard audio cassettes is another unreasonable obstruction. The Dictaphones cost about £150.00 each.

 

:faint:We needed a break.

 

 

Following another cancelled appointment in June, my husband did everything he could to get some sense out of our local resources clerks and Atos 'Customer Relations' as to what we could use to record the next appointment Atos arranged. And got precisely nowhere!! Except that my referral was recalled by Jobcentreplus!!

 

Fast forward to October/November. A resources clerk said he would let an assessment centre know that one of our friends planned to record an assessment with two identical personal audio cassette recorders that use standard tapes.

 

Sony TCM 150 Cassette Recorders @ £49.99 each from Amazon

 

Friend fronted up for his assessment to be told the centre knew nothing about it! And the manager doubted that the Sony recorders would be approved anyway!!

 

Around the same time I was helping another friend to chase the acceptability of 'table top' audio cassette recorders.

 

Sony TCM 939/B Compact Cassette Voice Recorder @ £29.99

 

Which are in short supply at the moment but we already own one each. And the very similar.

 

Philips Cassette Players @ £34.99 each from Argos

 

Lots of murmurings about sound quality and when chased for the second time, the clerk's advice was to wait for one of their machines!

 

But applicants for a personal independence payment don't have the option to wait. Current Government policy is that neither Atos nor Capita offer audio recorded assessments.

 

The Consumer Action Group is neither advertising, nor promoting purchase of, any of the above mentioned audio cassette recorders. There is no indication whatsoever that Atos/Capita or the Department for Work and Pensions will approve any of them for use by a claimant to record an assessment for a disability benefit.

 

**Margaret**

[2ltr16valve]

Hi Margaret.

 

I told atos on the phone that I intended to record their home assessment with two dictaphones and after being on hold for a short while I was told this was fine and they sente some paperwork out regarding it to sign and for the assessor to sign on the day. This was for pip.

[**Margaret**]

:2ltr16valve:

 

Are you able to tell us whether you've got Atos written agreement to a make/model of Dictaphone?

 

And whether the form looks like the one below;

 

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/188599/response/468149/attach/3/ATTACHMENT.pdf

 

Margaret.

[2ltr16valve]

:2ltr16valve:

 

Are you able to tell us whether you've got Atos written agreement to a make/model of Dictaphone?

 

And whether the form looks like the one below;

 

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/188599/response/468149/attach/3/ATTACHMENT.pdf

 

Margaret.

 

Hi.

 

No model specified afaik. The agreement is the same as linked yes.

I will try and post the letter later for you

[nolegion]

Margaret. That is all extremely useful information and I pass on grateful thanks from the FoI enquirers involved in pursuing this matter.

 

Anybody else with any such info?

 

2ltr: I too would be very keen to have sight of anything DWATO sends you on this. I much regret to say experience suggests they will not let you have anything in writing accepting or refusing any particular recording equipment – and will then decline to go ahead with a recorded interview on the day, whilst blaming that outcome on you.

 

The recording situation for claimants remains a disgrace.

[SWLABR9]

Just do it clandestinely. A transcript is admissable as evidence, I understand. If every assessor comes to understand that assessments are routinely recorded illegally or whatever they'll either start behaving properly or quit the job. I can't see we've got a lot of options here really; we're damned if we do and we're damned if we don't so what the hell, let's fight back wherever we can.

[matt v atos]

A transcript is admissible as evidence. And can be rejected