Fined by DVLA for not registering - Letter sent off

[insanekitty]

Hi all

 

I get sent a letter from the DVLA stating that they were fining me for non continuous registration.

 

I sold our car to a garage and bought another new one. The private plate on the old one got transferred to the new one so the old had to be reregistered.

When the new registration turned up 2 week later I duly sent off the part to the dvla and thought thats that!

 

Just before xmas the fine letter turned up so I rang them and explained that I sent it off and I will not be paying a fine, to be told that I will still be fined as I am liable because it was my vehicle.

 

I told them that the vehicle was sold to a garage and the number plate transferred to our new vehicle so technically we never even owned the reregistered car! to be told tuff and still pay the fine.

 

I have used a letter from here to see if I get anywhere and I am willing to go all the way to court to contest this.

 

I have posted just to let everyone know how I get on and will keep you all updated.

 

Many thanks for all the info here and I have recommended this site to many a friend.

 

Steve

[Raykay]

As I understand the system about personalised number plates, before you sell a car, if you want to keep the plate you have to put it on retention and sell the car on it's new 'standard' plate.

Did you follow the correct procedure for the registration document in respect of selling the car to the trade, if not, that could be the reason for their claim. What part did you send to DVLA?

Edited January 15, 2012 by Raykay

[insanekitty]

Yes Ray

everything done as we have done lots of times before just this time the dvla seem to have lost the paperwork

 

We change our car on average every 12 - 18 months but now this one will have to last the missus cos we are broke!

 

Thanks

[patdavies]

Whilst it is not necessary to place the VRM on retention (it can be transferred directly), there is a requirement that is made very clear on the V317 and that is that you may not dispose of the donor car until the transfer is complete. IOW, you have to have title to both cars for a while.

[insanekitty]

Hi All

Just an update

 

Got a letter back today stating:

 

Thank you for your response about the above vehicle.

In view of your comments, we will be making further enquiries and will write to you when these have been concluded.

Yours Sincerely - enforcement Officer

 

date 19-01-2012

 

 

 

Well lets see what happens next!!!

 

Steve

[insanekitty]

OK had a response and I shall type in the relevant passages;

 

Thank you for your correspondence received 11/01/2012 regarding enforcement action initiated against you in respect of motor vehicle DK** ***

 

Some paragraphs an background of the continuous registration(CR)

 

With regard to your case, the last licence for the vehicle expired on 30/09/2011 and as no immediate licence application or SORN declaration was made and no disposal notification had been received, a Late Licensing Penalty (LLP) was issued to you on 13/12/2011. As an organisation, DVLA is strongly committed to providing its customers with the best possible service and I am sorry if you feel this action is harsh, however Enforcement action would not proceed without DVLA first ensuring that current legislation had been breached. The responsibility rests with the vehicle keeper to ensure that he or she is fully aware of, and complies with, all statutory obligations with regard to registration and licensing.

I note your contention that you were not the keeper of the vehicle on 1/10/2011, however no notification of disposal was received until after the LLP was issued.

Information pertaining to the Acknowledgment Letter scheme is included on the V5C, and also on various Agency leaflets, including the 'United Kingdom Registration Certificate Guidance Notes' (INS160), which should be retained with the V5C. Advice is also provide on the website. The system is designed to negate any uncertainty that may be experienced by either the sender or intended recipient, as to whether a notification of disposal submitted has actually been sent, or indeed received.

I am satisfied therefore, that the Agency has provided vehicle keepers with the necessary information to carry out their salutatory obligations and remain within the law. I can only conclude, that had an enquiry in respect of the absence of an Acknowledgement Letter been made, the issue of the Late Licensing Penalty letter could have been prevented.

Your contention in respect of the Interpretation Act 1978 is again noted, It is the Agency's position that it is not sufficient for a person issued with a LLP who is registered as a vehicle keeper, to simply state that a disposal notification has been posted to the DVLA. Should such assertion be accepted, DVLA would be unable to fairly preside over the enforcement of CR and ensure that the aims of the legislation are achieved. Consequently, something more tangible than an assertion is needed to prove that a registered keeper has discharged the obligation to notify. This is why the Acknowledgement Letter scheme is such a fundamental part of the process.

Having reviewed the case, I remain satisfied that the Agency has acted correctly, both in advising you that an offence has been committed and in seeking legal redress. I am however prepared to offer you the opportunity to settle this matter at the reduced amount of £40.00. A cheque or Postal Orders should be submitted to this office by 10/02/2012. Blah Blah Blah. Any payments made after this date must be at the higher amount of £80.00.

We believe that the decision we have made in your case is correct and appropriate. However, if you feel that there is further mitigating information that we have not taken into account, you can contact us on the above telephone number or write to the above address, quoting the vehicle registration number, to request a Dispute form (V991). This will be sent within one day of receipt of your request. Please note that simply disagreeing with our decision would not be sufficient cause to enter the dispute process.

 

I hope that you now understand the Agency's position in relation to this matter.

 

Yours sincerely

Jamaal Siddique

Enforcement Section.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for reading and I hope you can understand what I have typed up. I am not accepting this as I have posted off the required document as I have done in the past approximately 7 times in the last 6 years!

 

What should my next step be? Shall I write in or telephone to initiate a dispute.

Your comments are welcome

[insanekitty]

Just to make everyone aware that this is a Late Licensing Penalty and not continuous registration, thanks

 

Steve

[insanekitty]

Any one got any comments?

[insanekitty]

It very quiet in here lately!

[Tony P]

BOO! (that better?)

 

I've not fully got my head round exactly what happened here, not helped by the persoanal plate distraction that PatDavies dealt with.

But

If this is just a matter that you sent the V5C back to DVLA having disposed of the vehicle, and them claiming not to have received it, you have done nothing wrong and will have to wait for them to take the case to a Magistrates Court. There are plenty of similar recent cases on this forum where, invariably, the DVLA Prosecutor will try to do a deal at the doors of the Court and if that fails, withdraws the case sooner than let a determined, informed Defendant present his defence (Interpretations Act) to the Magistrates.

 

However, I don't think this is exactly that.

 

When is the 'untaxed' period they are claiming a Late Penalty for? Was it before or after you sent back the V5C advising them of the disposal - of the vehicle, irrespective of present number?

If it was before your sending back the V5C, the vehicle should have had 'tax' or SORN for all periods up to that date, as it was stilll your responsibility, despite it maybe standing in a dealers premises waiting for you to receive the 'new' V5C to send back.

[insanekitty]

Hi Tony

Thanks for the reply.

The V5C was sent off 2 weeks before the tax was due so the vehicle was then and still is in the hands of the dealer - untaxed!

 

If they want to take me to court then I am willing to go and will defend myself with the Interpretations act as I duly sent off the V5C as I have done on numerous occasions before.

 

Thanks

Steve

[Tony P]

So, if I've got this straight, in sequence-

 

1. You sold the vehicle, changing the private reg off it- presumably with DVLA issuing a replacement tax disc with the new number.

2 . The dealer kept the car until you got the new V5C for the non-private reg number.

3 . You sent the V5C to DVLA giving the purchasing dealer details - and gave the dealer his bit.

 

Thoughout this time the car had current road tax with the new number.

Following this-

 

4. DVLA did not send an acknowledgement for the V5C confirming the transfer of RK.

5. The road tax expired on 30/9/11

6. DVLA write on 13/12/11 demanding penalty for neither declaring SORN nor renewing the road tax, thinking you were STILL the RK

7. DVLA claim they received notification you are no longer the owner after 13/12/11.

 

The missing bits of paper/information are - the date of 3 above, confirmation of 4 above and knowing what finally prompted 7 above (possibly a new owner application or DVLA finding they had misplaced 3 above!)? Also, did they send an acknowledgement after 7 above?

 

If I have got this all correctly - a straightforward case of you did your bit under the Law sending the V5C to them, and as defined by Interpretations Act (3 above) they are deemed to have received it then.

 

So you did nothing wrong and a straightforward defence as in many recent threads is what you do.

Don't allow them to wriggle out of it by trying to confuse the Magistrates about a need to 'deliver' sooner than 'send by post' the V5C, nor sidetrack them over the private reg number part of the process, which was the red herring here.

 

Let us know as it progresses as well as your acquittal!

Edited February 6, 2012 by Tony P

[Raykay]

3 . You sent the V5C to DVLA giving the purchasing dealer details - and gave the dealer his bit.

 

Shouldn't the OP and the dealer have completed the 'Transfer to the Trade' slip on page 2 of the V5C and the OP send that to DVLA, and given the rest of the V5C to the garage?

[Tony P]

Shouldn't the OP and the dealer have completed the 'Transfer to the Trade' slip on page 2 of the V5C and the OP send that to DVLA, and given the rewithin 2 weeks st of the V5C to the garage?

Sorry!

Not having sold/exchanged a UK vehicle with a dealer for many years I had not considered the difference.

 

Looking at this I think I now see the source of the problem - the V5C in the new reg number was not available for some time because DVLA do not issue them instantly at item 1 above when the new registration and tax disc was issued, but at some later date.

Therefore the OP could not complete the Dealer section and send it back to DVLA until it had been received from DVLA!

What was this later date it was received - it appears DVLA claim this was the day before 7 above?

 

Presumably in view of DVLA's actions this was after 30/9/11 when the replacement tax disc expired. Their guideline target for such V5Cs is within 4 weeks according to their Complaints leaflet INS101

 

In which case they appear to be saying the RK should have SORN'd it - even though no longer the Owner nor in posession of it during the period between concerned

 

I admit that although I see now see the situation, I am now out of my depth with this.

 

Anyone?

 

As an aside - if, in the crcumstances while waiting for DVLA to perform, someone had been seen using the SORN'd car, who would DVLA have chased for penalties? The RK who is neither Owner nor Posessor?

 

The number 22 comes to mind - yet again with DVLA!

[Raykay]

They may no longer be the owner, or in possession of it, but they may still be the registered keeper, and it is the registered keeper who is responsible for licensing the vehicle - hence the LLP.

A reason why, on the V317 guidance notes it states that you must not sell or get rid of the vehicle until you receive a replacement V5C.

 

If the OP sent the wrong part, or incorrectly completed part of the V5C to DVLA, that could explain his problem.

[Ayrshore]

The trouble here is that the DVLA will ONLY accept an entire V5 document for transferring a registration plate - any section of it missing is, apparently, unacceptable.

 

Likewise, if you sell the car before transfer is complete, you can lose the plate. They seem to make life as difficult for you as possible.

 

I found this thread looking for the V991 online (strangely enough, it's not available online).

 

I have a similar problem - bought a car for parts, with no tax on it, it was never on the road, and I was never asked to declare it SORN - yet somehow I'm liable for a 'penalty' for it... yeah, right.

[Raykay]

I have a similar problem - bought a car for parts, with no tax on it, it was never on the road, and I was never asked to declare it SORN - yet somehow I'm liable for a 'penalty' for it... yeah, right.

 

If you are the registered keeper and the vehicle is not licensed or SORN, you are liable.