uk Debts and living in NZ

[now in NZ]

Hi GuysWe have been living in NZ now for a year and have no intention on moving back to the UK, we tried to sell our house before we came but were unable so we rented it out.

 

The tenents have now done a runner and we have had the house valued with a look to selling it and settling our mortgage and our UK Debts. Unfortunatly the valuations have come in at less than 35K than when we had the house for sale 12 months ago.

 

It now looks like we have negative equity as this valiutaion figure would not cover the mortgage and secured loan, we also have unsecured cradit cards and store card debts etc of around 20K.

 

I have looked at Bankrupcy but i dont think we could cover the charges asked by the UK bankrupcy company around 3.5 k for joint accounts. the questions i have are:-- should i voulentary enter reoposession proceddings with the Mortgage company and how do this effect the securred loan company.- can any creditor issue a CCJ agaist me?- if we a sruggling to pay current loan charges / sore cards etc can they instruct a NZ debt collection company to collect from us here in NZ for a UK debt.?

 

We had / have every intention of selling our house to cover the UK debts but we are now in negative equity and this is not possible what should we do?

 

Our wages here will not cover us living here and covering UK mortgage / debt payments and scholl fees here in NZ.Any advice would be greatly recievedthanks

Edited January 5, 2012 by citizenB
Popped in some spacing to make reading easier

[stroke a badger]

Bump

[now in NZ]

Not very helpfull Badger

[stroke a badger]

The purpose of a BUMP is to move your post to the top of the list

[now in NZ]

opps sorry

[now in NZ]

bump

[cerberusalert]

They cannot obtain a CCJ against you in the UK if you are not a UK resident, they would have to do it through the NZ courts.

 

I have looked at Bankrupcy but i dont think we could cover the charges asked by the UK bankrupcy company around 3.5 k for joint accounts.

 

Have you looked at bankruptcy in NZ?

 

If you wait for the mortgage company to foreclose on you I'm afraid it is likely that they will sell the house for a lot less than the market value & then try to chase you for the shortfall.

 

Do your creditors know where you are?

 

Was there any unfair charges or PPI with the loan and/or credit cards?

[now in NZ]

If i understand some of the good info on this site, if ihave no CCJ against me in the UK when we left 12 months ago and any UK creditorwould have to take me to court in NZ using UK law which would be costly and Unlikely?Has it happened to anyone on this forum?

We have no assets here in NZ and currently rent and I have receiveda letter from a UK credit card company saying that they will look to use a NZbased company to collect the debt, what can the NZ based company do over a UKdebt. We are happy to pay back what we can afford but it would not be themonthly repayment. Should I write back and offer what we can afford or just ignorethe letter?

Some of our creditors in the UK know we are in NZ as we werepaying the bills on time and all correspondence was through our Postal Boxnumber. No one has our rental address but I would think this would not be too hardto find. As the people renting our UK property have done a runner and as therental money was covering the mortgage we are now behind on the mortgage andsecured loan and we face negative equity of about 10k is it likely that theshortfall would be chased here in NZ and could we again just offer what we canafford?

Is their anyone had this same situation in NZ and can tell us of their experience good or bad?

thanks in anticipation

[cerberusalert]

If i understand some of the good info on this site, if ihave no CCJ against me in the UK when we left 12 months ago and any UK creditorwould have to take me to court in NZ using UK law which would be costly and Unlikely?

Yes, they'd be more likely to sell the debt to a NZ debt collector who would then try their luck. AFAIK no-one has reported on this forum that they have actually been taken to court in NZ for a UK debt.

 

We have no assets here in NZ and currently rent and I have receiveda letter from a UK credit card company saying that they will look to use a NZbased company to collect the debt, what can the NZ based company do over a UKdebt. We are happy to pay back what we can afford but it would not be themonthly repayment. Should I write back and offer what we can afford or just ignorethe letter?

I would make them prove a debt exists and that they have the legal right to try and collect.

is it likely that theshortfall would be chased here in NZ and could we again just offer what we canafford?

They will try to chase for the shortfall but eventually sell the debt.

 

Hopefully someone who has experience in NZ will be able to advise too.

[hannahhelp]

hi i am facing a similar problem to you. sorry to butt in on ur thread, bt would love some info our home is in £40000 negative equity, and a 1 bedroom apartment, rent each month would leave us £400 to add, been offered jobs in Oz and considering going with the kids, but what to do with the house can we leave it??? can we be chased??

[now in NZ]

bump

[unclebulgaria67]

I think you should make contact with a UK debt helpline to see what the best way forward is. I think you should see what the options are and the consequences. My advice is start the process of getting advice from people that deal with this on a daily basis. There are probably thousands of people in exactly the same position as you.

 

http://www.cccs.co.uk/InfoCentre/NonUKresidents.aspx

 

http://www.nationaldebtline.co.uk/england_wales/contact_us.php

 

If the house is still in ok condition to rent out, it might be better to continue renting and come to an arrangement with the mortgage company to pay them an agreed amount from the rent. I can't see you selling it or the mortgage company selling it, as being in anyones interest.

 

If the creditors know you are outside the UK then they should know they can't take forward any court actions in the UK, such as going for bankruptcy or a CCJ. But they can chase using NZ debt collector and try to come to an arrangement. A relative who was always moving around with time abroad, was in a similar position and they managed to come to a full and final settlement of about £2k for a £30k debt.

 

When the tenants did a runner, did you not claim back anything from the letting agency or the deposit protection scheme ? If you used a letting agency you might have some comeback. If you let the house directly, you could pursue the tenants, but this would involve hassle and cost (or could you employ a debt collector to chase them)

[3tea]

Hi there.

 

Hopefully I can be of some help, as I have been in NZ for just over 3 years.

 

I left the UK with significant debt having been unable to pay it back due to loss of job after an accident at work.

This was unsecured debt, but debt nevertheless.

 

I will deal with unsecured debt first.

 

As regards a UK bank, credit card company or a debt collection agency actually taking action against you in NZ, it is virtually impossible for them.

 

To do so, they must have already obtained a CCJ against you in the UK. If they have not, then you can forget any legal action.

As regards chasing you, then they will by letter, threaten you with all sorts of things, none of which they can do for the aforementioned reason.

 

What you do need to do, is update every creditor that you are in NZ and give them your PO Box number as an address.

 

Don't admit any debt if you ring them to let them know. I would also notify a change of address using the tear off slip on the back of the credit card bill.

Do whatever you can to ensure that ALL correspondence reaches you here. Don't bother telling DCA's as they get all info from the main creditor. As soon as the DCA finds out where you are it will get passed to another bottom feeding DCA.

 

Some people have failed to tell creditors where they are, and the creditor applies for a CCJ using the address that have on record.

You then have to jump through hoops to get the CCJ set aside, as this is the step they need to legally chase you in NZ.

 

Some will ignore your address change anyway and try and slip a CCJ in illegally. I had a major credit card do this 18 months after I had let them know where I was.

The first I knew was that the Royal Mail re-directed the summons to my NZ PO Box.

 

I rang the CC company and pointed out that they had in effect lied to the Court (very naughty) in order to obtain the CCJ, at which point they immediately withdrew it!

 

Any debt may be sold to an NZ agency, packaged up so as to appear to the NZ company as collectable. Theoretically, they could chase you for it, but as the debt originated in the UK, it can only ever be enforced in the UK.

Therefore, all you need to worry about is legal enforcement, which as I said, they can't do.

 

Your house mortgage is a secured debt, and the mortgage company took a risk when they leant you the money that you had the ability to pay it back, and that the value of it covered the loan.

 

Clearly from what you have said, neither has proved correct and you are now in negative equity and are behind on the mortgage.

 

I would say here that attack is the best form of defence, and that you immediately put this property on the market in the UK.

 

By doing this, then you will show the lender that you are serious about sorting it out and they may get off your back a bit.

Doing it this way, you may get a better price for it than if it was repossessed, and thus the shortfall will be smaller.

 

The main issue you have, is that a lender can actually bankrupt you in the UK for a period of three years since the date you left.

If the debt is significant, then the likelihood of them trying this is greater.

Bankruptcy in the UK takes account of all your wordLy assets and would include a property you have bought, or a car etc in NZ.

 

If this is not an issue for you, and you are simply in a rental in NZ on a low income, then you could hand the keys back and walk away.

They will chase you for it, but if you have no assets then the worst that can happen is that they will make you bankrupt in the UK which won't have much bearing in NZ if you are not a home owner.

 

If you have nothing and can offer nothing, then that will be that and eventually you would be discharged.

 

Ideally, you will have been in NZ for three years by the time it comes to this, and then they are really stuffed hence the delaying tactic with selling the house.

 

For a smaller amount of deficit, then the cost of doing it outweighs any gain for them, and they are unlikely to try it on.

Once three years have ticked by they can't do it anyway.

 

I know it might seem a massive problem , and I would imagine that there are some sleepless nights in your household, but take it from me, you really don't have to worry too much about it.

 

If it's any consolation, my debts were 40k GBP and I tried and tried to pay it back, but none of the creditors were any help.

My experience is that even big companies resort to illegal threats of action they can't take, and the mismanagement of loan paperwork is breathtaking.

 

They rely on threats to intimidate people, and in a lot of cases this works with the 'won't pay' as opposed to the 'can't pay' which is why they do it.

 

Try the lender out by threatening to hand the keys back, and tell them you are in NZ. This will give you an idea as to what they would do. I would hazard a guess that they will tell you a right load of old bull in an effort to get you to not hand the keys back, as this leaves them with a problem house.

 

To get rid of it they would have legal fees, estate agent fees etc etc, and with little hope of getting it back from you.

I would imagine it would be a last resort for them anyway.

 

Try and sell it until they are forced into action and repossess it, delay everything and hold out until the three years are up.

 

A previous post says that it is not possible for a UK creditor to initiate Bankruptcy proceedings against you as you are not in the UK.

 

I am reliably informed that they can serve a Statutory Demand on you, even in NZ, which is the start of Bankruptcy proceedings without the need for a CCJ first.

The 3 year bit is the crucial part. Outside of that, you are home and dry.

 

As this is conflicting advice, I would possibly get proper legal advice before you take the plunge!

 

As regards your secured loan on the house, I am assuming this was taken out after the mortgage?

 

The mortgage company will have first charge over the house, so if it sells for more than you owe them, I think it would clear the mortgage first with any surplus going to the secured creditor, who of course by then will have no security.

 

Not sure if they can take any other action other than bankruptcy as discussed above.

 

 

3 tea

Edited February 22, 2012 by 3tea

[thedtb]

I'm also in NZ, also have substantial UK debts and also have a house that failed to sell, though fortunately we currently have tenants that have so far been excellent, renting the house from us.

 

This thread has been particularly interesting to read.

 

"now in NZ", I'd be very interested in hearing how you've got on since you opened the thread?

[ScotinOz]

3Tea - Great post ! I tried to PM you but it wouldn't let me.

 

I have similar debts to you with 4 credit card companies in the UK and now in Australia and been heer 2 years having paid the min payments. I'm about to default on them as my circumstances have changed in Oz. I'll be taking your advice and sending them a letter to advice them i'm in Oz (to date I've kept my home address and redirected to family member )

 

Thing is I still own my house in Scotland with my wife. You state in your post that it is not possible for a UK creditor to initiate Bankruptcy /CCJ proceedings against you as if your not in the UK. Is this correct ? Does this mean they can't make me sell my house to pay the unsecured debts ?

 

You state above though that your reliably informed that they can serve a Statutory Demand on me, even in NZ (Oz ?), which is the start of Bankruptcy proceedings without the need for a CCJ first. Is this true ?

You say the 3 year bit is the crucial part ... what do you mean by that ?

 

Any advice would be helpful

 

ScotinOz

[cerberusalert]

Serving Statutory Demands on someone living abroad

 

see http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/ManagingDebt/CourtClaimsAndBankruptcy/DG_187711

 

A statutory demand is not a document issued by the court. Leave to serve out of the jurisdiction is not therefore required. When a statutory demand is served outside the jurisdiction, the time limits for compliance (21 days) and for application to set aside (16 days) must be amended. This is done with reference to the Extra Jurisdiction Tables (Time for Acknowledgement of Service) in the Supreme Court Practice 1997, and the time is altered with reference to each particular country. [see Practice Direction (Bankruptcy: Service Abroad (No 1 of 1988 [1988] 1 WLR 461.]

There are some restrictions on you being

able to present a bankruptcy petition if a

debtor who lives abroad fails to comply with

a statutory demand:

 

• If the debtor lives in one of the member

states of the European Union (apart from

Denmark), you will not be able to present

a bankruptcy petition against that person

if they carry on business or earn their

living in that EU country.

 

• If the person is retired or unemployed, the

court will look at the place where they

normally live. You have to make the

person bankrupt under the law of the

country where they normally work or live.

 

• If the debtor lives in a country that is not

in the EU, or if they live in Denmark, then

you will be able to present a bankruptcy

petition only if they have lived or had a

residence here, or carried on business

here, at any time in the 3 years before the

date you present the bankruptcy petition.

The only exception is if they are in

England and Wales on that day.

[ScotinOz]

cerberusalert - thanks - but the link doesn't work.

 

You also posted on the 'In Oz with UK CC Debt' post and it appears different. The above last paragrph is very clear but is this only for England and Wales and would it be different for Scotland ?

 

Scot

[cerberusalert]

http://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/you_and_us/faq.asp#FAQ13

[3tea]

ScotinOz,

 

Sorry for the delayed reply. Have not logged in for a while.

 

There are a few things you need to be careful of I think.

 

Firstly, the advice I would give is to check the situation regarding a creditor obtaining a CCJ in Scotland.

What is written below, refers to England and Wales, and I would really find out from the Scottish Courts how your circumstances would be dealt with.

 

My situation was in Wales, and in writing this I am presuming that the law in Scotland is similar?????

 

In England or Wales, a creditor has to show that the address for the issue of the Summons is in England or Wales.

 

Anything other than England or Wales, and they can't apply for it, and are pretty much stumped at this early stage in proceedings.

 

You currently have all your Credit Cards at addresses in the UK, which in my view is quite a big mistake.

 

As far as the companies you owe money to are concerned, you still live in the UK, and they will deal with you as such.

 

This can mean that when you default on your minimum repayments, eventually a County Court Summons will be issued to the address held on the creditors files. A perfectly legal thing for them to do.

 

By the time you know about it, you will already have a CCJ, and then have to go about setting it aside. A costly and difficult thing to do from your part of the world.

 

Once any creditor has a CCJ in their favour, then the debt collection agency letters will arrive. A rain forest worth of them.

Then the visits start to come, to a family members address???

 

When that does not work, then they will look for security elsewhere. So if you have a credit card say with Lloyds Bank, and a current account with them as well, then they will withdraw funds from the current account to pay off the card.

 

If that does not work, or does not apply, then your house in the UK is in the firing line.

 

Armed with a CCJ that you have not paid, then any creditor can obtain a charging order against your house, and when you sell it, they will get paid from any proceeds before you get a penny. Not a good plan.

 

I have a friend in NZ that this happened to, and he was stuffed until I pointed out that the CCJ they had obtained had been sought at the address in the UK.

He had not told the creditors where he was, so he had to set about getting the CCj set aside, and then the charging order.

It took him ages, and a right old fight as he had to prove when he came to NZ etc etc.

 

He had been here three years, the charging order was removed due to the incorrectly obtained CCJ, and he sold his house and got the money to NZ. The creditor had the rug pulled from under them, and got nothing. I should have charged commission.....

 

You say you have been in Oz for two years?

 

As regards them bankrupting you, then they can do it by serving a Statutory Demand on you even in Oz. They don't need a CCJ at all.

It has become a common tactic of creditors to do this, as this frightens most people into paying up, as the last thing they want is to be made bankrupt.

 

It is possible that this might be the opening gambit for them as they know they are stuffed with an Oz address, particularly if the amount you owe is substantial. Depends on the creditor really as to what they will do.

 

However, I think you are a long long way off this situation, and two thirds of the way to home and dry too. The reason for this, is once you have been out of the UK and in in a non EU country (like Oz or NZ) for three years or more, then they can't apply for your bankruptcy.

 

Bankruptcy is a last resort, and will only be attempted by the creditor if they think that hey will win.

 

They will start with default notices, then final demands, then the threat of court action (they can't take) and by the time the proverbial hits the fan, your three years will have arrived. It worked for me!!

 

They are that unscrupulous they will package up your debt, and hide it amongst other debt, and sell it on to get some money back. The hapless buyer then 'owns' a debt they can't legally collect, and the best bit is that they payed the original creditor for it! Brilliant!

 

So if you have a house worth 250,000 GBP and only owe 50,000 on it, then you can get ready as they know they will get their money back, and will bankrupt you to do so. You can therefore lose your house for a tiny sum in debt.

 

What I would do, is follow the advice I previously posted and tell them where you are. give them a PO Box in your local town and let them send all the crap to that.

 

By the time they get to a potential bankruptcy petition, then three years will have merrily skipped by.......

 

What are you doing with your house, and do you have any equity in it?

 

If you are going to sell it, and have equity in it, then in NZ you have to get your assets into NZ within 4 years or will have to pay tax on it as 'foreign income'. Might be worth checking the situation in Oz???

 

I don't think you have much to worry about at this stage as long as you tell them where you are as soon as possible.

 

The last thing you want is to be using an address in he UK, such as parents or brother or sister as they will get all the fallout and doorstep visits from thugs etc.

 

Be upfront and tell them where you are. At least then you will also know what they are up to!

 

Cheers,

 

3tea

3Tea - Great post ! I tried to PM you but it wouldn't let me.

 

I have similar debts to you with 4 credit card companies in the UK and now in Australia and been heer 2 years having paid the min payments. I'm about to default on them as my circumstances have changed in Oz. I'll be taking your advice and sending them a letter to advice them i'm in Oz (to date I've kept my home address and redirected to family member )

 

Thing is I still own my house in Scotland with my wife. You state in your post that it is not possible for a UK creditor to initiate Bankruptcy /CCJ proceedings against you as if your not in the UK. Is this correct ? Does this mean they can't make me sell my house to pay the unsecured debts ?

 

You state above though that your reliably informed that they can serve a Statutory Demand on me, even in NZ (Oz ?), which is the start of Bankruptcy proceedings without the need for a CCJ first. Is this true ?

You say the 3 year bit is the crucial part ... what do you mean by that ?

 

Any advice would be helpful

 

ScotinOz

Edited April 2, 2012 by 3tea

[Kec]

Hi there guys, I am in avery similar position to 3tea and just wanted to know if any of your creditors actually did sell any of your debts on to NZ DCA's and did any of them try and collect. If so, how far did it go before they eventually gave up ?

 

Many thanks.

 

Kec

[thedtb]

Hi there guys, I am in avery similar position to 3tea and just wanted to know if any of your creditors actually did sell any of your debts on to NZ DCA's and did any of them try and collect. If so, how far did it go before they eventually gave up ?

 

Many thanks.

 

Kec

 

Excellent question, I'm interested in the same too...

[Thalgo]

Actually me too....... It seems there are a few of us here in this position. Thanks for sharing.

[3tea]

Excellent question, I'm interested in the same too...

 

Not so far for me. None of my creditors got past threatening me with 'doorstep' visits in a generic letter.

 

I have been in NZ for over 3 years and during the first year was getting at least three letters a day.

It dropped off massively in the second year, and almost stopped in the third year.

 

The only correspondence I now get is from Halifax, who quite correctly send me a notice every three months notifying me of my default status. All of the others have failed to comply with the law rendering any legal challenge hopeless anyway.

 

The only notification I had in the last year was one creditor had sold a debt to Arrow Global, another UK debt collection agency.

 

There was another thread regarding Oz where an Oz DCA attempted to take UK debtors to court in Oz.

The debt had been purchased via Canada I think, as there is some agreement between the UK and Canada as regards the supply of personal data, and likewise between Oz and Canada.

 

They also loaded bad credit data with the Credit Reference agency VEDA which caused a few problems. I do believe it was sorted out, and the DCA got into some trouble with the Oz authorities too.

 

The fallout from all this, is that no one will want to take on debt from overseas if they can't collect on it. The Oz DCA got it's fingers burnt, so any DCA that buys toxic UK debt these days needs it's bumps feeling.

 

My belief is that for years DCA's have got away with intimidation due to most people's ignorance of the law.

Now people are better informed they are struggling to hoodwink people.

 

I worried about it in year one. Laughed at the threats in year two, and now lament the lack of correspondence I get as I have to get newspaper to light the log burner.

[Thalgo]

Thank you 3tea. Really appreciate you sharing your experience.

[steveab1]

thedtb / Thalgo.

 

My experience has been similar to 3tea.

 

They promised a doorstep visit last month, but they didn't turn up. I had made cucumber sandwiches for them as well. Ungrateful bastards.

 

Don't worry as they are full of ****e.

 

Regards