DVLA : Failure to notify change of keeper.........case adjourned,what do i do now???

[WeAllNeedHelp]

Thanks Raykay. I assume that there isnt an act or section specific to the acknowledgement letter. If the prosecutor refers to the onus being on the reg keeper to check that the records have been updated then is there a defence for that ? I think the charge is "failing to notify the secretary of state forthwith" . I have already sent a letter to the prosecutor stating interpretation act and that it is for them to prove that I didn't post the v5. However her reply was that I failed to notify , not failed to post . They appear to be very bullish. They make a fair bit of money out of an afternoon in court. Any thoughts on the defence ?

Ps sorry for hijacking the thread

[WeAllNeedHelp]

Blimey, did these people tell the court that they don't legally have to chase up the acknowledgement letter.

They can appeal I suppose, hoe does that work?

 

From what i remember, I don't think that they did. However surely the clerk is there to point out law and legal requirements to the mags.

I have pointed out to the Dvla prosecutor that I have fulfilled my legal obligation but she has still pushed it to court.. She know my defence , interp act etc. So must have a counter argument or know that the court in this case will be on her side.

[Raykay]

DVLA try it on and say that the s.7 Interpretation Act 1978 does not apply in their cases, but as the act says:

 

'Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post'

 

The requirement is to send the document to DVLA, for which they supply a postal address - DVLA, Swansea, SA99 1BA - so they expect it by post.

As the act states, whatever the expression is used for 'serve', if the service has been effected by properly addressing a pre paid letter containing the document, it is deemed to have been delivered , unless they can prove that it wasn't sent, which is very difficult for them, so they say "you didn't send it"!!

 

As they cannot prove it, they try their other tactic, the acknowledgment letter. There is no legislation that requires them to send any acknowledgment letter, or the old keeper to do anything if they don't receive one, but they don't mention that - only saying "the onus is on you to chase up the letter", forgetting to say "but you don't have to"!!

 

Sometimes the Magistrates don't really understand the legal side of things and rely on the clerk of the court, who accepts what he is told by the DVLA prosecutor, who obviously doesn't explain the exact legal position - only the bits they want the court to know!! Which is why you have to ask the prosecutor to explain the legal requirements - why they don't think the Interpretation Act applies, and what legislation covers the sending and receiving of an acknowledgement letter.

Edited April 28, 2011 by Raykay

[Dragons Dennis]

In simple terms, as the seller of the vehicle your ONLY legal resposnsibility is to post the V5c in a pre paid envelope to DVLA. You did that so end of case. You swear in court on oath the you posted the V5c on whatever date it was and that is accepted as served on DVLA. End of.

[Raykay]

I agree, but I wonder in how in many cases that were seen by WeAllNeedHelp in post 23, did the defendant tell the court that they had posted the document to DVLA and were still found guilty.

 

It seems that DVLA prosecutors ignore the provisions of the Interpretation Act and then brow-beat the court over the acknowlegment letter issue.

[Dragons Dennis]

OK, Let us cover the acknowledgment letter from a leagl point of view then.

 

The DVLA tell you on the V5c that you should contact DVLA after 4 weeks if you do not receive an acknowledgment letter. 5 weeks is after 4 weeks. 27 years is also after 4 weeks. There is no time limit on when you should contact them and indeed there is no legal requirement to do so in any event.

 

The law is clear on this matter. You are legally obliged to inform DVLA when you sell or dispose of a vehicle by sending the relevant portion of the V5c to DVLA by post to their postal address. Once a letter has been placed into a Royal mail postbox with correct address and postage, it is legally deemed to have been served upon the recipient. Whether DVLA receive it or not is of no consequence to the sender in law. DVLA can jump up and down demanding what they like, but you do not need to contact them further or chase up anything at all.

 

Obviously it is better to have proof of posting, but it is not a legal requirement. In the same as it would be best of all to have an official process server to serve the said V5c in the hands of the Chief Executive of DVLA. But that is also not a requirement.

 

An avidavit is a legal document. It is simply a written version of what you wish to say, then witnessed by a person of good standing ie a solicitor. The fee for this is usually £5 to £10 at any solicitors office. Produced in court it becomes a legally acceptable form of you saying you posted the V5c. Unless DVLA have proof that you didn't post it - which they will not of course - the V5c MUST be deemed to have been served.

 

DVLA's case is entirely around their accusation that the OP did not send the V5c. The onus in all court cases is for the claimant or accuser to prove their case. This is impossible to prove unless the DVLA have been welded to the OPs side for the last few monmths and can produce an account of everything they have done. It is actually impossible to prove that someone did not post a letter unless you have evidence to say so. How could they?

 

DVLA rely on people caving in or not turning up at court. I am aware of several people who have won in court after taking a darft of my letter with them, together with an avidavit as above.

[Raykay]

All the above is correct of course, just don't let the DVLA prosecutor convince the court that the Interpretation Act doesn't apply to their cases (because they say that you 'failed to notify', not that you didn't send the document) and that you are guilty because you didn't chase up the acknowledgment letter.

Edited April 30, 2011 by Raykay

[paul kennedy]

Raykay ,Dragons Dennis, Snooplotty, Crewb666 you are all subject to superhero status as far as I am concerned.

 

I knew nothing of this site till the early hours of this morning.

I lost in the Magistrates court in Chelmsford yesterday on the Failure to notify charge . The Magistrates were well intentioned and I think attempted to be kind to me by delivering a very small fine of £35 and cutting the DVLA's costs in half but they fell for the DVLA prosecutors suggestion that I needed to somehow prove delivery of the V5. The fact that I sent it was accepted and one of the first things that was established. I couldnt believe that I lost but with what I have learned from this and other threads on this site over the last 12 hours I am Filing for an appeal and looking forward to it. I just went to court with the honest truth unaware of the fantastic source of information on this site.

 

Case adjourned what should you do. Enjoy the ride and make sure the case gets heard in a court where the law is understood properly. I am confident that I will not lose next time and so should you be!

 

Read through very carefully the other thread entitled DVLA Failure to notify new keeper fine court case dropped.

 

Best wishes

[postggj]

may i ask what costs dvla were asking

[paul kennedy]

Hi postggi The DVLA prosecutor asked for £60 costs but the Magistrate said he was not going to have that and awarded £30. Regards PK.

[Dragons Dennis]

The law is clear on this and you must bear in mind that magistrates have no legal training at all. They are lay people (school teachers, shopkeepers, bus drivers), who do a maximum of 26 half days a year as a volunteer. Their legal knowledge is next to none usually hence why the cleark of the court (a qualified legal professional, usually a lawyer) advises them on the actual law etc.

 

What the legal requiremnt of the V5c is, is as stated above. You must (by law) notify DVLA of the sale or disposal of your car. And the only way you can do this is by sending them relevant and duly completed portions of the V5c. You cannot phone them and do it, you cannot go online and do it. It would be wise to have proof of doing this, ie proof of posting, but it is NOT a requirement.

 

The instructions to chase up DVLA after 4 weeks is simply a request by DVLA and is not a legal requirement. In any event, those very instructions are on the very form you send to DVLA! So unless you photocopy every document you ever get before sending it back, how would you know?

 

The charge is that you 'failed to notify' DVLA. But that charge is wrong because you did notify them. Again, in law a letter correctly addresses and stamped sent by first class post is deemed to have been served. Magistrates and indeed court clerks do get it wrong. That is why we have an appeal service, where someone else will look at the case. I can assure anyone reading this that the appeal system is impartial. It matters not if the original magistrates were personal friends of the people doing the appeal, the appeal is always better advised as they must get things correct in the letter of the law.

 

In the case above, the magistrates are wrong and you should appeal, not count yourself lucky you have been offered only 1/2 a penalty! Whay should you pay any penalty at all? You have done nothing wrong at all.

[Dragons Dennis]

I will go slightly further with this situation.

 

1. The Universal Postal Union (of which Britain is a signatory) makes it clear that, in the UK, post becomes the property of the recipient at the moment it is committed to the Royal Mail.

 

2. 7 References to service by post.E+W+S+N.I. (from the interpretation Act 1978 )

Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.

 

In court anyone charged with this onius offence should have with them a duly witnessed Avidavit, and should feel free to quote both the above.

 

When I get a chance later I will compose a suitable Avidavit template that people can produce in court.

[paul kennedy]

Once again a brilliant post DragonsDenis Exactly the information required for some one like me who it new to this situation and still reeling from a decision that was given against me by people who I felt had sympathy and time for me and I assumed had legal training and knowledge who then found against me when I knew that I had done nothing wrong. I am a fairly senior teacher in a secondary school and could do without a criminal record!

 

Really hope that some day I can repay the favour in some way.

 

Sincere thanks Paul K

[dawg]

Good luck with the appeal Paul. Ill be watching this thread myself. Ive not been to court so if this seems silly please tell me but maybe it might be worth also gathering data on how many letter the post office admit to losing each year and also dig up the information that was recently revealed about the DVLA losing letters also. I believe there was a case where someone requested all of this info through legal channels and took it to court with him and won his case. I dont have the link to it but its possible this may have been mentioned on these forums.

[Tony P]

And don't forget to ask the Court to award you your costs and reasonable compensation for your time spent. It is easy to overlook this in the relief and euphoria of winning.

[paul kennedy]

Thank you dawg and Tony P for your notes of encouragement. The appeal is lodged and I am waiting for a court date in the Crown Court. I am armed with all the fantastic advice provided by members of the CAG and am feeling very confident. If anybody knows any likely stunts the DVLA might pull at this stage then please let me know. Surely the DVLA do not want to end up losing in the Crown Court but they can't pull out of an appeal can they?

 

Regards to you all PK

[hearmyecho]

Hi, i have the same problem! Im so scared. I did send it and they wont listen to me. What was your outcome? Im due in court July

[terriersaregreat]

Hi, friend has same problem so worried came to ask for help as know I love this forum.

 

What a great help this thread has been. Have passed on the info to friend and will let you know their outcome.

[terriersaregreat]

Outcome- Friend reports that over 70 cases being heard for the same problem that day i.e. DVLA stating that registration document not returned.

 

F repeated the advice from the forum. DVLA prosecutor asked why F had not checked why acknowledgment not received. F repeated advice from forum.

 

DVLA P said he had not heard of this before. Magistrates suggested that he should settle with F. DVLA P said they had offered a fine of £55. F replied that he had returned the Reg Doc.

 

DVLA P said that it would have to go to trial.

 

I would like to know who is paying for this to go trial when there is no evidence produced by DVLA that the Reg Doc was not returned? F had produced evidence that it had been sent.

[boggey1]

love these bits dvla are wanting to take me court ,llp.take no notice,MP ,no notice of the law .no resect at all looking forward to court

[paul kennedy]

Received a court date of Sept 9 at Chelmsford Crown Court. Confident but still a little nervous because the stakes are quite high now. being in the right must be an advantage but this is unfamiliar ground.

 

Thanks for everybody's help and advice.

Best wishes Paul

[postggj]

good luck

 

dvla withdrew there case against me 2 days before court

[paul kennedy]

Hi Postggj Nice to speak to you again

 

i lost in the magistrates before I discovered this wonderful forum. Tried being honest, magistrates seemed to have sympathy but found me guilty.

 

I have appealed. Lets hope I win. Can the DVLA pull out of an appeal ?

[terriersaregreat]

Good luck and all the best.

TAG