HFC - CCA request

[Always Struggling]

Hi,

I have been reading through the forum and find it useful and a little confusing at times lol.

 

Long story short, I have 5 debts mostly originating from around 1999. I had been paying them pro rata until my hours changed at work etc. for the last year I have been making £2 token payments (one of which is now being dealt with by HFC, marble cc I believe) I decided to send a CCA request to HFC when they started to make requests on the debt (12+2 days expires on 4th April)

 

After reading more and more on the forum my question is:

Should I CCA the others or should I SAR them all (including HFC) for all information?

 

The reason i ask is I am not sure on how much of the debt also includes charges / penalties plus I read somewhere that by default Marbles apparently had the PPI automatically ticked on any applications.

 

I will post seperately on my other creditors/dca's as and when I send either CCA/SAR.

 

I have always tried to pay what I can over these past 10 years but find every so often a debt has been passed over to a new DCA who then harrasses to pay more, either by letter, phone or any other means possible and in the case of Lloyds (the worst imo) set you up at one point to pay via their collection dept. you make regular agreed payments for a few months, they pass it back to bank level who then put charges on and want more money, you can't pay more it is passed back to 'collections' you agree a fixed amount, pay for a few months then it's again sent back to local bank, add charges, want more, .... you know the story.

 

I guess I am just at the point where if they can all do something on a 'technical point' and it's in the small print. Then on the same basis why shouldn't I? If we make errors that's our fault, so, if they make errors (what's good for the goose etc)... that's how I view this situation now tbh.

 

In the meantime I will await the 12+2 for a response from HFC then the further 30 (if nothing received) before making a complaint.

 

Any advice on to CCA or SAR the rest would be appreciated.

[MARTIN3030]

Welcome to the site.

Please bear with us.

[Always Struggling]

Hi Martin, thanks for the welcome. I had pm'ed you as I was having trouble posting in here or even finding it without having to go through my profile. I have since worked out that when loading the front page listing the threads, I need to click on refresh, for my thread to show up. Is this correct or are there issues with the site causing this? I did have a few issues trying to get on the forum last night and kept getting a 404 error. Hope things are all fixed now

[Tingy]

The normal thing would be to CCA them first to make sure that the debt is immediately legally enforceable. If you do this and het the results in, if there is one in particular where you think you have ppi but are not sure, you've no need to spend £10 immediately on an SAR, you can ask them under CPUTR 2008 whether the agreement was sold with ppi. They have to answer honestly as if the answer could end up being used in court, and wahtever they answer, they could end up committing a crminal offence.

 

 

Always Struggling - all normal. The site was down for a while last night.

[Always Struggling]

Thanks for the pointer Tingy. I have done the CCA to HFC first, sent a SAR to another (am a little curious tbh to see exactly what information they hold along with charges/fees) On the whole though CCA first followed by CPUTR or SAR if and when required.

 

P.S. as to the site, I still get a glitch every so often. Initially I tried to reply with a quote and was asked to log-in (which I was already) I logged in again still couldn't quote so just replied. I also have to click refresh alot to see updated threads when i first come back onto the forum.

[Tingy]

Generally CCA, report the results. CPUTR would not normally be so relevant at this stage, you'd normally possibly SAR depending on results of the CCA, but with the ppi issue cputr would be relevant. When you get the CCA there may be a host of other questions as well. Totally understand the SAR already aked for and think you're absolutely right. So many accounts with one institution could provide a revealing SAR.

[Always Struggling]

I'll expect a van for delivery of SAR lol.

The date I had initially pencilled in for a reply in relation to the CCA was 1st April. This would be 12+2 but would be including weekends in the days count, should I add a further 4 days to exclude Sats and Sundays?

[Tingy]

Yep! CCA is 12+2 working days; SAR is 40 calendar days. It took me months to remember that! lol

[Always Struggling]

Ok, CCA signed for on Monday 21st March .... takes us up to Tuesday 5th April. Will update accordingly

[Always Struggling]

Got my reply from HFC today. If someone could please let me know if they have (or haven't) fulfilled the CCA request. According to their covering letter they say they have.

hfc reply letter cca.pdf

page 1 terms.pdf

page 2 terms.pdf

copy current application form.pdf

statement 1st april 2011.pdf

 

From what I can tell all they have done is sent a copy of the current terms and cond. and a copy of a beneficial application form (not a company I had even heard of until recently).

There is nothing there in relation to original documents, (signature, APR at time etc.) nor is there anything relating to the address I lived at .. the copy of the application form had just had my current address written on it by someone from their office but not my previous address where I lived when I got the card.

 

I appreciate anyones advice on my next step thanks

Edited April 5, 2011 by Always Struggling

[Always Struggling]

Have just had a telephone call from Beneficial Finance asking for me to make a payment to my beneficial card account. (I have been paying £2 token payments but as it was set up via DD and last months was refused - insufficient funds - now there's a change ) hence them telephoning me this evening.

I told her I have never had a beneficial card so she changed it to marbles card and she then explained that marbles was now beneficial (I've had no notification of this ever).

 

Anyway, I explained I had written to HFC 2 weeks ago with a CCA request, at which point you could hear here attitude alter, I then went on to say that I had been instructed to only deal with letters and not to talk on the phone anymore as I had no record of what is being said. She stated that no one would call in future and they would hold for a week before contacting me again by letter (let's see how true that is lol).

 

From reading other threads it appears they can basically send their 'current' T&C with copy of 'any' application form (beneficial one sent to me not marbles) and then say they have complied with request.

 

I'd appreciate any feedback in my best way forward in the first instance.

[Tingy]

What exactly did you have with HFC - account, credit card, loan? Without knowing it's impossible to check enforceability!

[Always Struggling]

Apologies tingy for not making it clear.

It was a marbles credit card, originally taken out approx 1999.

[Tingy]

Please don't just take my word for this, but I thought in a CCa request you were supposed to have the agreement, not the application form. As far as I can see, any prescribed terms they have provided here are contained within their statement, whereas they should be clearly stated on the reconstituted agreement in my opinion.

 

The recon agreement (which is an application form not an agreement) should clearly state (for a credit card) your Credit Limt (I would have thought as agreed at the time), Details about repayments and the Rate of Interest applicable at the time (worth checking as this seems to be the one thing they often got wrong, so it may be included and appear to meet the prescribed terms, but in reality it does not meet them because the detail is incorrect).

 

This is purely my opinion, but I do not think this is a satisfactory response for a CCA request. I don't think the reconstituted agreement is a reconstituted agreement and although prescribed terms are there on the statement, I wold have thought they should be on the reconstituted agreement.

 

Hopefully someone who has more expertise than me in this area will be along soon to see whether they agree or not.

[Always Struggling]

My initial view (complete laymans one) is that there is no copy of orginal agreement (signed or otherwise) there is no reference as to any changes from original T&C to current ones being sent, there is no copy of anything in regards to it being a marble cc and not beneficial which is what their paperwork all relates to (not sure how relevent this is) Nor is there any Credit limit mentioned, how much %Apr at the time - if different or same as is on the Statement of account they sent. Minimum payment amount of any balance at time etc.

 

Am I right in my thinking or am I 'over-thinking' my expectations?

[Tingy]

Certainly along the same lines as me!

[victoria_siempre]

Hi guys

 

I beg to differ; post Carey, any old recon crap satisfies a Sec 78 CCA request and this is not in itself a basis for one's defence or their attack; all their actions post the operating of an account can however be robustly challenged.

 

x

 

v

[Always Struggling]

Hi Victoria, I was thinking along the same lines after reading more and more on the subject of CCA and their response.

However, after receiving the above response there is very little in regards original copies in fact there is nothing as they are all on Beneficial paperwork who until now i had never heard of. (marbles cc) (signed or otherwise).

 

I would just like to pose a question before I start to persue the CPUTR2008 points raised in another thread which I believe if they send information such as above under CCAb and continue to do so with no explanation as to what changes are or have been made from any original agreement to present day and NO other information relating to the original agreement such as credit limit or Apr etc, they would be falling foul of the CPUTR with either 'misleading actions' or 'omissions'.

 

The question is in regards to HFC's covering letter in response to CCA request:

Quote Beneficial covering CCA response letter dated 1st April 2011:

"Regulation 7 of those regulations also requires us to provide a copy of the executed agreement, as varied, where there is a power to vary the terms of the agreement, which there is with this card agreement and that power has been exercised to vary the agreement, which again is the case with this card agreement"

 

 

This may well be standard and factual (I don't know) but surely they have to be able to produce the orignal agreement, they themselves refer to, so it can back up what they state in their own letter?

(full letter can be found in previous post)

Edited April 6, 2011 by Always Struggling

[Always Struggling]

Just re-reading and the only reference from Beneficial in regards my original agreement is a point they wish to use.

There is no information other than that in regards to my original agreement (not even the correct address at the time never mind any APR or credit limit) the more I disect their letter response the more I think requesting a CCA is not a complete waste of time, you are highly unlikely to get original copies of anything, but their response and lack of information with details and/or of any alteration to original agreement in regards sending current t&c's instead would allow you to then follow up with the CPUTR2008.

 

Basically, their 'deliberate' and 'tactical' response to a CCA request (imo) would appear to be self-defeating as they then come across as being as vague as possible and offer as little information as possible in regards the original agreement (either by design or by lack of info)

 

This seems to go under the CPUTR2008 pretty much automatically as the 'average person' would then base their decisions on this at 'face value'

The fact that information has been 'omitted' or is 'misleading' without a clear explanation as to what is different to current days t&c in regards to original.

Or there is no reference to the credit limit or Apr (except what it may be today) again without explanation.

They are in fact (again imo) being obtuse to the point they are putting up their own hurdles to then at a later date have to jump over... seems rather short-sighted to say the least.

 

Please let me know if I am 'off base' with this

Edited April 6, 2011 by Always Struggling

[Tingy]

Hi guys

 

I beg to differ; post Carey, any old recon crap satisfies a Sec 78 CCA request and this is not in itself a basis for one's defence or their attack; all their actions post the operating of an account can however be robustly challenged.

 

x

 

v

 

Good Evening Vic,

 

Which part of the bits posted do you consider constitutes a reconstituted agreement?

 

Tingy

xx

[victoria_siempre]

Hi AS

 

Given that you had and used an account there is little point in relying on an an unenforceable agreement.

 

It would be proper to question every aspect of every interest and penalty charge applied; your counter claim for the time spent dealing with their damned fooled replies and harassment etc. etc.

 

It's a long battle; let the enemy come to you.

 

x

 

v

[Tingy]

Totally agree with Vic! Look and question every little piece of detail.

[Always Struggling]

Yes it is something.

 

However, I would like to run something past you and anyone else that has a view on CCA requests. To me it also becomes a point on principle, it cost me £1 for something I could have got for free from any motorway services. They know I would like to see a copy of my agreement, they deliberately avoid sending it, so I will read more and more on this matter.

 

So far in my brief time trying to understand the point of a CCA request to a creditor (which on the face of it and the likely response back would appear pointless)

If after making a CCA request (everyone knows it is for the purpose of 'inspecting' the original agreement to see if it is compliant) you fail to get a copy, which now appears to be the right of the lender to send back copies of any terms & cond and blank application forms.

 

If after receiving these articles back from your creditor, it is possible surely to simply write back to them and blatantly state that you wish to ensure that your agreement was properly executed.

In my case I can write to HFC and state the following:

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

I require an original copy of the agreement to ensure it conforms to section 60(1) 61(1) of CCA 1974 and section 127 of the CCR 1983. Therefore, as my request thus far has only resulted in yourselves (HFC) sending a leaflet with illegible t&c's and some sort of blank application form I will reiterate my request for a true copy of my ORIGINAL agreement.

 

I will allow a further 21 days for you to fulfil my request as you have received my £1 payment already for this purpose. If a copy of my true original agreement with signature is not available I would expect confirmation of this by return plus the return of the £1 fee as you are unable to fulfil my request. If after 21days I have not received my true copy for inspection I will be taking further advice in regards the matter.

 

Yours, etc. etc.

 

If any points made to sections 60, 61 CCA or 127 of CCR are incorrect please let me know.

[victoria_siempre]

Hi AS

 

We agree with your points but Carey determines that any new crap will do to satisfy a SEC 77/78 request. An illegible response might be filed so that the claimant would have to read it out in court were it to come to that; and this would form an amusing part of a a wider defence.

 

x

 

v

[Tingy]

AS,

 

A quick question. Even if you manage to get your original agreement, what exactly do you intend doing with it?