Southwark council PCN appeal. Blue Badge.

[pfozz]

I recieved a PCN on saturday 5th Feb when parked in Southwark (London). I was taking my Mum out for a day at borough market. It was the first time I have used her blue badge. I was considering challenging it on two fronts. I was wondering what people thought of this approach? I would be grateful of any advice as I haven't had to do this before.

 

This is my draft appeal:

 

I had a valid blue badge clearly displayed and I checked the blue badge parking rules on your website before I set out on our journey to southwark.

 

Your website (link provided) says "Where blue badge holders can park: in pay and display or shared-use (permit holders and pay and display) bays for an unlimited time".

 

I was parked in a permit holders bay.

Your website indicates that this is ok with a blue badge: "permit holders and pay and display bays".

The text on your website is very unclear.

 

Additionally, it would be much clearer if you said explicitly where you are NOT ALLOWED TO PARK like other borough websites do e.g. Wandsworth (link provided).

 

It is only because the blue badge parking rules on your website are so unclear that we understood we were allowed to park in this bay.

It was clearly unintentional on our part because there was plenty of alternative parking space available on the yellow lines on Union street at the time.

 

Secondly, the parking contravention that has been accused on the PCN ticket does not apply. It says:

"Parked in a resident's or shared use parking place or zone displaying an invalid permit, an invalid voucher or an invalid pay and display ticket"

 

1. I was NOT parked in a "resident's" or "shared use parking place or zone". On your Controlled Parking Zone maps on the Southwark council website the bay I was parked in is marked as a "Permit holder only" bay whereas "RESIDENT permit holder" bays and "shared use" bays are marked in different colours to the bay I was parked in.

 

2. I was NOT displaying an INVALID permit or an INVALID voucher or an INVALID pay and display ticket. I was displaying a VALID Blue Badge.

 

Thanks,

Paul

[TheBogsDollocks]

In my view you are on the right tracks. I would emphasise point 2 more though as this (so long as the blue badge was the only thing on display and no out of date tickets or your own resident permit for example) is a strong point.

 

If nothing else was on display then the correct contravention is a code 12

 

Parked in a residents’ or shared use parking place without clearly displaying either a permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place

 

 

It seems they used code 19 in error as the blue badge confused them. You should point this out and state that the contravention as defined by code 19 did not occur.

[pfozz]

Many thanks TheBogsDollocks.

 

Blue badge was clearly on display. It is clearly visable on the PCN evidence photos on their website - as was my residents parking permit for Wandsworth borough - this is permanently on my windscreen. Please note my residents parking permit is for a different London borough (Wandsworth) and cannot be removed without destroying it. I have attached some of their PCN evidence photos from their website.

 

Do you think my residents parking permit invalidates my argument that contravention code 19 did not occur?

 

 

 

 

I would be grateful of any opinions.

Thanks,

Paul

 

 

[pfozz]

...also if I successfully argue that contravention code 19 did NOT occur, can they issue me with a new PCN for contravention code 12 ???

[pfozz]

...sorry the pics have come out a little small. The blue badge and my tax disk are visible behind the parking ticket.

 

oh, and I should have confirmed my the resident parking permit is not out of date.

 

Thanks.

[TheBogsDollocks]

No.

 

Your resident permit muddy's the waters, it could be argued either way but I'd still go for it as your permit is not invalid it's just that it was not "issued for that place" which makes code 12 the more appropriate. Code 19 really concerns the correct permit, voucher, ticket but it is not considered valid for some reason e.g. expired or incorrectly displayed.

[pfozz]

Thank you. Ok, I think I'll go with this approach. Do you think I have worded it correctly, or should I explicitly mention that contravention 12 is more appropriate?

Thanks,

Paul

[Jamberson]

I can't see this succeeding. You had a permit on display - it was not valid for that location, so I can't see a fault with the contravention code, and there was nothing faulty in the information on their website either. The fact is, you just misunderstood the provisions of the blue badge scheme in that area.

 

Personally, I think your best chance is to not go on the offensive, but write a polite letter saying you misunderstood, now realise you made a mistake, and would they please cancel on this occasion. More chance of success that way, I think.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

I disagree that the resident's permit for the motorists home borough is of any relevance. I would regard it as wholly unreasonable and/or vexatious for any LA to pursue a case on this basis.

 

I am unaware of any adjudication decision where this has been an issue in this way.

[sailor sam]

Can we see pics of the location showing the signage please OP? Or give us the location so we can check on street view?

[TheBogsDollocks]

An extract taken from the London Councils Civil Enforcement Officer's Handbook.

 

CODE 19

 

Penalty Charge Level: Lower

 

Code Description: Parked in a residents’ or shared use parking place or zone displaying and invalid permit, an invalid voucher or an invalid pay and display ticket.

 

Description of Contravention: The contravention occurs when a vehicle waits in a residents’ or shared use parking place or zone displaying an invalid permit, voucher or pay and display ticket that would have been valid for that parking place at some time.

 

Extra Information to be Recorded:

• Details of any out-of-date or incorrect permit

• Details of any other permit displayed

• Details of any pay and display ticket

• Arrival time and value of voucher(s)

• Serial number(s) of ticket and voucher(s)

Loading and Unloading Allowed: Yes

Observation Period: Yes

Exemptions: ADEH1IJKLNOP

 

Seems quite clear to me, wrong contravention.

[green_and_mean]

Did you display the clock, they may have considered the badge invalid without it?

[diskmandave]

No clock in the pictures.

[Jamberson]

 

Unless it is meant to be read as:

 

"an invalid permit, voucher"...

or

"pay and display ticket that would have been valid for that parking place at some time".

 

I say this because the notion of a permit which would have been valid at some other time is not meaningful to me. I can't see a situation where you have a permit and are parked in a permit bay, but the permit only allows you to park there at some other time. Do such bays exist where use of permits is time-restricted? I think it would possibly fit for an expired permit, but I don't agree it's clear-cut.

[green_and_mean]

 

The difference between the two is

 

12

 

No permit issued for that bay at all or no p&d if its a shared use bay, nb: an obscured permit would be a 12 if you could not see zone.

 

19

 

Permit for that bay that is invalid because, its expired, wrong VRM, wrongly scratched, obscured expiry/vrm.

 

wrong zone is a 12 because it was never issued for that place.

[pfozz]

WOW! I only came accross this website the other day and I'm bowled over by all the help I have recieved.

 

Sailor Sam - please see pic attached - from their PCN photo evidence.

 

 

 

green and mean - did not have display the clock, because we didn't think it was needed for parking in that bay.

 

Thank you everyone for your input.

Paul

[sailor sam]

Mmm, I would of liked to see a wider picture showing the bay(s) as well. The reason is that outside my house there is a similar arrangement with resident only bays and dual bays. In the resident only bays, the plate states 'Resident Permit Holders Only' with the code which applies to the permit (In your case C1). underneath that sign is another plate stating 'No exemption for disabled badge holders'. I would of thought that this is the requirements of the signage in this type of parking arrangement so I would say the signs are inadequate as their meaning of 'Permit' could be interperated as disabled permit in the abscence of a further sign and the wording 'resident' which I have described above.

[starfarer]

I was thinking the same on Monday evening (maybe PCN issued due to not displaying of time clock) but when re-read first post again, realised that where permitted with badge, there's no time restrictions. This is wrong contravention issued.

[green_and_mean]

 

Its wrong contravention which ever way you look at I was just trying to work out what the CEO was thinking when he issued the PCN. Should be an easy win if the OP plays his cards right.

[pfozz]

sailor sam - see more pics attached. I don't think there were any other signs. Do you think I should object on the grounds of the signage too?

 

 

 

Thanks,

Paul

 

 

 

[sailor sam]

Going on the bays and signage outside my house, I would say the sign in your case is unclear. There are additional signs stating 'No Exemption For Disabled Badge Holders' on the resident only bays here so I would say the signage in your case is inadequate. 'Permit Holders Only' could mean disabled permits for all you know. The word 'Resident' should be present.

[pfozz]

Thanks all. In the light of everyones input, I have reworded my appeal. What do you think? I intend to submit it Friday afternoon.

 

---------------------

I was taking my parents to visit Borough market. It was our first visit to Southwark and the first time I have used my mum's blue badge. In addition to the valid blue badge, I also had my valid resident parking permit for Wandsworth borough displayed. Of course, this is not relevant to Southwark, but I cannot remove this without destroying it.

 

Firstly, I object to the PCN on the grounds of inadequate signage. The only sign says "Permit holders only" and we were clearly displaying a valid blue badge. The accused contravention is "Parked in a residents' or shared use parking place..." There is no signage indicating it is specifically a RESIDENTS' or a SHARED USE parking place. It merely says "permit holders only". Neither is there a "No Exemption For Disabled Badge Holders" sign as we are used to seeing elsewhere. Indeed, we have since found that the bay is not categorised as either a RESIDENT'S or a SHARED USE parking place on your own CPZ map on the Southwark website. Additionally, the description of contravention 19 in the London Councils Civil Enforcement Officer's Handbook states "The contravention occurs when a vehicle waits ... displaying an invalid permit, voucher or pay and display ticket THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN VALID FOR THAT PARKING PLACE AT SOME TIME". Both permits were VALID and clearly displayed, but not issued for that place. Therefore, secondly, I object to the PCN on the grounds of an incorrect contravention code.

 

We did not deliberately park incorrectly. There was plenty of space on the yellow lines on Union Street at the time that would have been equally suitable for us. We were simply misled by the signage. However, we do now understand the blue badge parking regulations for Southwark.

[green_and_mean]

I would just stick to the actual grounds which is the contravention did not occur.

 

Dear Sir,

I would like to make representations against PCN number ####### issued on ## ## #### in ######## road. On the day in question I parked my vehicle in the 'permit holders' bay as alledged whilst taking the badge holder for a day out. In Wandsworth were I live as in most London boroughs blue badges are permitted to be used without a time limit. I therefore displayed the blue badge without clock which is only required were there is a time limit.

I returned to the vehicle to find a PCN had been issued for an invalid permit or pay and display ticket. I displayed neither a permit or pay and display ticket at any time therefore the contravention did not take place. The law clearly states that the PCN must state the grounds on which the PCN is issued, please could you either confirm details of the 'invalid permit or ticket' displayed or cancel the PCN.

[sailor sam]

Personally I think the OPs letter is fine as it covers both angles. I think there is mileage in the signage issue. Obviously its down to the OP at the end of the day.

[green_and_mean]

 

Except for the crucial fact that the blue badge scheme does not permit blue badges in permit bays so there is absoloutely no need to state on a sign they are not allowed.