Unpaid Council Tax - Bankrupcy, Charging Order or Committal to Prison - Please Help

[ploddertom]

Hi guys thanks for all the input it is really appreciated. can anyone categorically confirm with example that this van & levy cannot be applied?

 

In Culligan v Simkin & Marstons Group (2008) the DJ said the process of Levy & Removal are 2 different processes and a gap must be allowed to give the debtor time to pay. Although this was for Traffic Offences it's principle still holds good here.

 

We have signed no WP, have received no details of goods levied on or anything from the bailiff - you must be left a copy of the relevant sections of the appropriate enforcement regulations, a copy of the schedule to those regulations showing the costs they are allowed to charge, a copy of any possession agreement that the debtor has signed - walking Possession Agreement - and a memorandum setting out the sums due according to the relevant regulations (reg 45 (5) for CT). No other documentation is acceptable. Essentially you have to be left a Notice of Seizure which lists the goods seized and the charges they applied at that time.

 

Tingy you have pm

 

Another couple of points.

For 1st and 2nd Visits were you at home when they occurred or was it the usual sneaky up to the door and poke the letters through knowing they can charge more at a later date. If you were at home when they called would there have been a vehicle outside they could have levied upon at the time. If so why did they not levy then?

[Tingy]

Sent you several pm's. Read the first and the one titled Important before any others, I just sent them as I rooted around. I think we'll get it taken back before too long. Just ensure you keep paying the council and NOT A PENNY to the bailiffs. You will have to pay them something eventually, but only what is lawfully due. If they disagree then they can take you to court to prove they have charged correctly can't they (but I have a sneaky suspicion they wouldn't). The council are telling bare faced lies. They can perfectly well take the debt back, they're just trying to make you deal with the bailiffs. Don't give them that satisfaction. I think from now on send everything direct to the CEO and don't copy anyone. The statute law I've sent you is very clear about vicarious liability and the council cannot wriggle out of this. One of the pms advises you deal with only the CEO of the council.

 

Good luck and note the other suggestions. I'm around everywhere!

[dgrg]

Another couple of points.

For 1st and 2nd Visits were you at home when they occurred or was it the usual sneaky up to the door and poke the letters through knowing they can charge more at a later date. If you were at home when they called would there have been a vehicle outside they could have levied upon at the time. If so why did they not levy then?

 

Sneaky up the door I think, although looking back at the dates on their letter they were supposedly a consecutive saturday & sunday in August, we would have definately noticed any hand delivered correspondence and don't have any record here, so who knows.

 

My car was on the drive when they visited with Van on December 21st. I may be speculating when i say the reason for no levy was becuase the value of the car if sold at auction clearly would not have cleared the value of debt at that time, who knows? i will be writing to them monday to challenge the levy.

 

And thanks pt for the levy/removal info too, we're learning more and more as we go along but the curve is steep.

Edited January 9, 2011 by dgrg

[dgrg]

Sent you several pm's. Read the first and the one titled Important before any others, I just sent them as I rooted around. I think we'll get it taken back before too long. Just ensure you keep paying the council and NOT A PENNY to the bailiffs. You will have to pay them something eventually, but only what is lawfully due. If they disagree then they can take you to court to prove they have charged correctly can't they (but I have a sneaky suspicion they wouldn't). The council are telling bare faced lies. They can perfectly well take the debt back, they're just trying to make you deal with the bailiffs. Don't give them that satisfaction. I think from now on send everything direct to the CEO and don't copy anyone. The statute law I've sent you is very clear about vicarious liability and the council cannot wriggle out of this. One of the pms advises you deal with only the CEO of the council.

 

Good luck and note the other suggestions. I'm around everywhere!

 

Thanks again Tingy you have been so helpful.

 

I will maintain all our payments will be made to the council with all correspondence to ceo. I think the bailiff already have what is due to them, in the scheme of the intial order value it's not a vast amount of money that they have retained but the principle of the overcharging and the fact that both they and the council deem them legitimate still gets my hackles up, I can't imagine how many people out there would have had to make even greater scrifices to cover payments of these and not come here. The money that they have retained in my case would now actually take a good chunk out of our remaining outstanding balance.

 

will hopefully have something drawn up tomorrow to send out to both bailiff and council.

[martonman]

dgrg,

 

I have just happened across your thread and sympathise with your situation entirely. In my experience you will never get anywhere trying to negotiate with these bailiffs. Your council's reaction is also sadly typical.

 

It's good advice to anyone in council tax debt who has had contact from bailiffs to completely ignore them if at all possible. Do not let them in and do not telephone them if they leave a card or letter asking you to.

 

What you must do however is make some regular payments to your council, either online or through their telephone automated payment service. This way they can't refuse it! If you try and speak to your council they will say it is 'out of their hands', that 'they cannot accept payment from you or enter into any arrangement', and they will tell you that 'you have to deal with the bailiffs'.

 

These bailiffs are not employed or paid by the council. They make their money from the fees they try to add onto your account. Hence your council really doesn't care. The 'bailiff' that calls at your door will almost always be a self-employed collector who earns a 40% commission from whatever fees he or she can extort from you.

 

They actually have very little if any legal power but rely on intimidation, threats and lies to coerce unsuspecting folk to pay out more than they can afford and thus fraudulently line their own pockets. They cannot enter your locked house without your permission and start taking goods, they won't turn up with a locksmith or the police. The only thing that one of these bailiff firms can do in reality is to return your case to the council - which is exactly what you want them to do. Once this happens the council then has to enter into a repayment arrangement with you or take you to court to enforce an attachment to earnings order. They will only proceed with committal / bankruptcy proceedings if you have willfully refused to pay the debt - which as you are making payments, you are not.

 

Once you have started making payments directly to the council you can quite happily tell any bailiff that calls at your door to go forth and multiply and that you are paying your debt to the council. You can ask them for a copy of their court certification (they almost certainly will not be able to provide this) and demand a full disclosure of all fees they claim to have levied (with dates and times for doorstep calls, attempted van removals etc). You can say that once you have received this full disclosure, you will give it your due consideration, but in the meantime you recommend that the bailiff passes your account back to the council in order to save themselves a lot of wasted time and effort. Don't ever give them a penny, rather tell them to contact the council (their 'employers') for any fees they think they are due.

 

Good luck and hope this helps.

[Tingy]

Brilliant advice martonman! It's actually pretty much what he's doing now! Thank you!

[martonman]

Brilliant advice martonman! It's actually pretty much what he's doing now! Thank you!

 

Thanks Tingy,

 

Like many others my blood boils when I hear about the actions of these bailiffs and the attitude of local councils towards them. Something seriously needs to be done by the government to stop it. There are many better ways for councils to collect council tax debts than employing bully boys and increasing the debt on those most vulnerable in society. The trouble is that at the moment these alternative methods cost the councils money whilst bringing in the bailiffs costs them nothing.

 

In my opinion the first course of action for the council when someone falls into serious arrears and fails to agree a repayment plan should be to apply for attachment to earnings or attachment to benefits orders - but this has to be made cheaper and easier for them to implement as well as being sympathetic towards the debtor.

[brassnecked]

Bailiffs are sooo 12th century, and an affront to public opinion and human rights in the 21st century as adding further charges that more than double the original debt in some cases, is an affront to fairness and equitable and ethical practice, viz cannot already pay amount due immediately, so loading with more charges will force payment (not)? But weren't the government seriously considering giving them the automatic right to force entry recently?

 

dgrg is receiving first class help and advice here imho, hope the council see sense and take the debt back.

 

If the Council is outsourcing as I inferred earlier, after all is sorted MP and others should investigate the impact of the potential collusion, that becomes possible between the provider, and any linked debt collection agency/bailiffs, and the potential for subsequent excessive fees on vulnerable debtors.

Edited January 10, 2011 by brassnecked

[outlawla]

dgrg,

 

I have just happened across your thread and sympathise with your situation entirely. In my experience you will never get anywhere trying to negotiate with these bailiffs. Your council's reaction is also sadly typical.

 

It's good advice to anyone in council tax debt who has had contact from bailiffs to completely ignore them if at all possible. Do not let them in and do not telephone them if they leave a card or letter asking you to...........

 

Excellent! An article of this kind should be published in every news paper. If every one of the 100's of 1,000's of residents affected by these opportunist private bailiff firms each year was exposed to this information, the industry wouldn't exist.

[guttar]

Excellent! An article of this kind should be published in every news paper. If every one of the 100's of 1,000's of residents affected by these opportunist private bailiff firms each year was exposed to this information, the industry wouldn't exist.

 

I have received a bailiff notices recently. I am not at home most of the time due to my work hours. my fiancee who has been staying with me since christmas did not attend the door. When I first received the notice I called the bailiff but his phone was not accessible. On a second notice I wrote a letter to the bailiff firm requesting no further notice as I am negotiating with council to pay the arrears. I received an email back from bailiff firm stating that account is no longer in the hands of our client Council and so payments must be made to the Bailiff, failing to contact the Bailiff to discuss repayment will result in further action being taken.

I contacted the council, but they refused to take my payment unless I pay in full. I am a low earner and cant afford to pay amount in full which is about 1500 GBP after bailiff charges. My fiancee is petrified with these notices and I wish to send to her home. I am also looking to move to a low rent home so I can afford to pay these arrears in instalments. Any Advice will be greatly appreaciated

[ploddertom]

I have received a bailiff notices recently. I am not at home most of the time due to my work hours. my fiancee who has been staying with me since christmas did not attend the door. When I first received the notice I called the bailiff but his phone was not accessible. On a second notice I wrote a letter to the bailiff firm requesting no further notice as I am negotiating with council to pay the arrears. I received an email back from bailiff firm stating that account is no longer in the hands of our client Council and so payments must be made to the Bailiff, failing to contact the Bailiff to discuss repayment will result in further action being taken.

I contacted the council, but they refused to take my payment unless I pay in full. I am a low earner and cant afford to pay amount in full which is about 1500 GBP after bailiff charges. My fiancee is petrified with these notices and I wish to send to her home. I am also looking to move to a low rent home so I can afford to pay these arrears in instalments. Any Advice will be greatly appreaciated

 

Better off starting your own thread for more targetted advice.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=168

 

PT

[dgrg]

Hi everyone I have an update:

 

Council have now recalled the debt which is at least good news, they received a battering email adressed to the ceo on Monday am focused around the legitamacy of the bailiff charges, which they would have had a seriously hard time challenging....

 

without you guys we would have struggled (if been ale at all) to acheive this and i am so grateful to you & everyone here who has contributed to this thread all for your help. Tingy has been an absolute superstar and has gone above and beyond in helping us. Truly grateful to have got the bailiffs off our back, my oh won't have to go out for hours because she doesnt want to be incase of a knock at the door. thank you so much.

 

The reply was flat though, and I havent finished with them, they say all charges have been taken off the account but they havent deducted the amounts retained by the bailiff against our arrears so i think it's time to drop them a little reply tomorrow.

[Tingy]

Excellent - well done both of you for sticking to your guns and not being bullied. You now know how much you can trust your council!

[hallowitch]

well done all

[ploddertom]

Nice to hear someone has had a (partial) result. Keep at them.

 

PT