Their fees are not legal, but quite simply fraudulent. The bailiff is most likely a self-employed collector working on commission only for the fees he can add on. If he doesn't add on fraudulent fees, he can't earn a living. It's a national disgrace with the whole system set up to encourage fraud and corruption. Councils, Central Government and the Bailiff firms all know this. They get away with it through people's ignorance and their intimidatory tactics - plus the fact that any council couldn't give a rat's ass once they have (for free) passed the debt onto the bailiff company to recover. I suggest simply ignoring the bailiff and writing a letter or email to your council CEO requesting their proposals for a repayment plan of monies owed (less of course any bailiff fees!). You can state that you believe the bailiff in question is attempting to criminally defraud you by adding on unlawful fees and that they, the council, are vicariously liable for the actions of their appointed collectors. It's easy to obtain your council's bank payment details and to set up a standing order for a minimum amount of, say, £10 per month, whilst you await their reply. A letter or email from you to the Bailiff company would state your opinion that they are attempting to defraud you and that you will be paying any monies owed (to your council) directly to your council and not to them. State that any attempt by their agent to access your property will be treated as criminal trespass and dealt with accordingly.

No need to worry Elliot. Firstly, ignore the Bailiff. Secondly, ignore Rossendales. Thirdly, pay whatever you can (however small an amount - even £5 at a time) regularly and directly to the Council via their online or automated telephone service. That way they can't refuse it and you are bypassing Rossendales and thus avoiding their fees. Once you were in default the Council would have passed the case onto Rossendales. They pass it on to (usually) a self-employed commission-only certificated bailiff. Rossendales know full well what charges they can lawfully make. So does the Bailiff, but it's in his interests to add charges and to willfully defraud by intimidation whenever he can. Otherwise, he just wouldn't make a living. Whenever a Bailiff hand-delivers a letter demanding £xxxx you can be absolutely sure that the majority of it is for the Bailiff's back-pocket. They'll threaten all sorts of things to get you to pay it - locksmiths, police attendance, warrant of arrest etc etc. It really is all bull. For an old parking fine I recently had two hand-delivered letters from a bailiff within two days. The first demanding £220, the second £260. After a written demand, the bailiff company sent a statement to the (legal) total of about half that amount. Obviously the discrepancy is down to the bailiff trying it on. I've now demanded an explanation from the bailiff company as to whether their man has numeracy problems or is attempting to commit criminal fraud. I await their reply!

Thanks Tingy, Like many others my blood boils when I hear about the actions of these bailiffs and the attitude of local councils towards them. Something seriously needs to be done by the government to stop it. There are many better ways for councils to collect council tax debts than employing bully boys and increasing the debt on those most vulnerable in society. The trouble is that at the moment these alternative methods cost the councils money whilst bringing in the bailiffs costs them nothing. In my opinion the first course of action for the council when someone falls into serious arrears and fails to agree a repayment plan should be to apply for attachment to earnings or attachment to benefits orders - but this has to be made cheaper and easier for them to implement as well as being sympathetic towards the debtor.

dgrg, I have just happened across your thread and sympathise with your situation entirely. In my experience you will never get anywhere trying to negotiate with these bailiffs. Your council's reaction is also sadly typical. It's good advice to anyone in council tax debt who has had contact from bailiffs to completely ignore them if at all possible. Do not let them in and do not telephone them if they leave a card or letter asking you to. What you must do however is make some regular payments to your council, either online or through their telephone automated payment service. This way they can't refuse it! If you try and speak to your council they will say it is 'out of their hands', that 'they cannot accept payment from you or enter into any arrangement', and they will tell you that 'you have to deal with the bailiffs'. These bailiffs are not employed or paid by the council. They make their money from the fees they try to add onto your account. Hence your council really doesn't care. The 'bailiff' that calls at your door will almost always be a self-employed collector who earns a 40% commission from whatever fees he or she can extort from you. They actually have very little if any legal power but rely on intimidation, threats and lies to coerce unsuspecting folk to pay out more than they can afford and thus fraudulently line their own pockets. They cannot enter your locked house without your permission and start taking goods, they won't turn up with a locksmith or the police. The only thing that one of these bailiff firms can do in reality is to return your case to the council - which is exactly what you want them to do. Once this happens the council then has to enter into a repayment arrangement with you or take you to court to enforce an attachment to earnings order. They will only proceed with committal / bankruptcy proceedings if you have willfully refused to pay the debt - which as you are making payments, you are not. Once you have started making payments directly to the council you can quite happily tell any bailiff that calls at your door to go forth and multiply and that you are paying your debt to the council. You can ask them for a copy of their court certification (they almost certainly will not be able to provide this) and demand a full disclosure of all fees they claim to have levied (with dates and times for doorstep calls, attempted van removals etc). You can say that once you have received this full disclosure, you will give it your due consideration, but in the meantime you recommend that the bailiff passes your account back to the council in order to save themselves a lot of wasted time and effort. Don't ever give them a penny, rather tell them to contact the council (their 'employers') for any fees they think they are due. Good luck and hope this helps.

Yes, I'll join the club of Hamptons/Lowells targets too...! I've had a couple of phone chats with these shysters about their demands for payment of an ancient and written off HSBC overdraft. Mine is so old it wasn't even with HSBC, but the Midland Bank! It looks to me as if these chancers have procured an old list off HSBC of written off debts and are trying their luck with it. Total numpties, their letters appear to flagrantly disregard all the guidelines and regulations set down for debt collection agencies. My tack is also to demand copies of statements and consumer credit agreements off them. As I'm 99% sure that HSBC destroyed these records long ago I think I may be in for a long wait. Very appropriately named though, as 'Hampton' is a short version of 'Hampton Wick', cockney rhyming slang for a male appendage.

BC you are dead right. If all the bailiff firms collecting on council tax and parking ticket arrears stuck to the rules they basically would not have sustainable businesses. They only turn a profit by adding fictitious and unlawful charges on. They get away with this by intimidation, lies and backhanders. The law should be changed to ban the collection of these debts by private firms. Councils should be forced to employ their own certificated bailiffs who are not on commission or bonuses for hiking up and inventing charges.

Hi Solainfrared & Putis OPTION 1 First option is to download the Statutory Declaration Out of Time document from the Northampton County Court website. Fill it in and take it down to your county court for swearing. Basically on here you can claim never to have seen a Notice to Owner document, or a Charge Certificate document relating to this parking ticket. Maybe you were out of the country, had moved address, were working away etc etc. Once this has been submitted the ticket is automatically set back to the original charge of £60.00. The Bailiffs can then be told to get stuffed and to go see the council for their exhorbitant fees. If you have honestly received the above documents then saying you haven't on a Stat Dec is an offence under law. OPTION 2 Don't pay the bailiffs a penny as IMHO both have vastly and extortionately overcharged. Remember that you DO NOT HAVE TO LET THEM IN your house, they can only enter via peaceful means. Basically they know this and therefore will try any lying threats they can to get the money off you. These idiots are most likely self-employed and on a big commission for any charges they can add to your account and collect on. Write to the bailiff firm now by registered post and demand a complete breakdown of all charges they are attempting to apply, including times, dates, names of bailiffs attending and proof of their court certification. Inform them that until you have recieved full clarification as per your request you will not be making any payments to them. You should send this headed 'Freedom of Information Request as per the Freedom of Information Act'. Enclose a cheque or PO for £10 as this is the maximum they can charge for the information under the Act. By law they have 40 days to respond. More often than not they will not respond. Most of these firms are useless administratively and won't even have kept proper records, much less ones that will satisfy the law. Copy the letter to the council. If you do get a response, take it along to your county court for free examination. they can give you a form to make an official complaint if you have grounds (which by the sound of it you do). All these bailiffs have to be certificated by the court, enough complaints aginst them and in theory they are booted out and lose their cash bond. Now you need to find out if indeed the parking tickets were lawful in the first place. Since the Decriminalisation of Parking [problem] (sorry, 'scheme')was adopted by countless councils across the country, many of them have been found to have been implementing it incorrectly and therefore unlawfully. In their mad rush to cream cash of us all they have forgotten to follow the guidelines set out in the 1991 Road Traffic Act. There are threads on this site regarding the legality of certain councils' parking tickets. An excellent site is Neil Herron's at The Peoples No Campaign - home. No fees to pay for help, just make a donation to the campaign if you find the info on there, and Neil's help, useful (which you will). If your council is one of the many to have failed in the lawful implementation of Decriminalised Parking Enforcement then by sending bailiffs after you they are in law vicariously liable for the upset to you and the highway robbery tactics of the bailiff. If your council is one of the few that do follow the rules you will have to pay them their parking penalty charge, which if Charge Certificates have been issued will be £90 plus. Pay the council directly via their website or automated phone service (that way they cannot refuse payment) and then have some fun messing the bailiffs about. So, worst case scenario - if you stick to your guns - is paying £90 plus to the council. A bit better than £400 or £700!

I don't think you'll get anywhere with the electrical safety thing. Good luck with the letters and your visit to the council, let everyone know how you get on.

Another example of a bailiff firm's intransigent, unlawful and inept attitude. Ok, maybe you should have paid your council tax on time (I don't think I ever have since the outrageous poll tax was tried - still haven't forgiven them for that!). But now that you are in this predicament let's get you well and truly out of it. QUESTION the bailiff's fees and demands by writing a letter to them, including details of your current situation. Copy the letter to the council and tell the council that until the bailiff's demands and charges have been fully investigated you will be paying the council direct. Send the bailiff's letter recorded delivery, and personally take the council letter down to the council if possible. Ask to speak to the Recoveries Officer or someone else high up. If possible send an email or letter to your local councillor asking for their help. The letters should put the bailiff's recovery action on temporary hold. Once you start paying the council, keep it up. Because you have signed a walking possession the bailiff can I think, in theory, force entry. This is why the letter of complaint is very important and urgent. However, even with a walking possession agreement, the bailiff really does not want to remove goods. They'll get practically nothing for them at auction (no offence there!) and it really is a bullying threat tactic to get you to pay for their extortionate fees. They'll be hoping that you will be ringing round friends and relations to borrow the money to pay them. Fact is, most of the money they want off you is their fees, which are probably fraudulent and against government regulations and guidelines. From past experience they will send another couple of letters claiming to have called at your address with a van but were unable to gain entry. This gives them an excuse to add another few hundred quid to your account. If one does call again, make sure you get his name, check his ID card and ask to see proof of his court certification. If he can't produce you are quite within your rights to send him packing off your property with his tail between his legs using, if necessary, 'reasonable force'. In the very unlikely event that he does have all the correct credentials, state that his firm's and his behaviour are being investigated by both the council and the local county court and that until the investigation concludes you are paying your arrears directly to the council. Therefore any attempt by him to gain entry will result in you calling the police as well as 'your rather large friend from round the corner who works as a doorman at weekends'. Get them stopped now. The sooner that councils are forced into stopping using these unregulated shysters the better.

So it seems clear in this case that the bailiffs have overcharged. In my mind (though not necessarily the correct legal state) that would invalidate ALL of their charges. I would pay the council the arrears but pay the bailiff nothing.

I have just this morning received a Charge Certificate from Rochdale Council re. a Penalty Charge Notice issued to me back in November 2006. On the Charge Cert it says (in white lettering on a bold red background): "Failure to pay the full balance outstanding within 14 days of the date of this Notice will result in the Council registering the outstanding balance as a debt at the County Court. A warrant may be issued to bailiffs to recover payment. You will also become liable for the additional fees to the bailiff." Paragraph 7 of Schedule 6 of the 1991 Road Traffic Act states, "where a charge certificate has been served on any person and the increased penalty charge provided for in the certificate is not paid before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date on which the certificate is served (my emphasis). The date of notice on the Certificate is 15/02/2007. This would give me until March 1st 2007. I actually received the Certificate on 17/02/2007, which under law is the 'date of service'. Under the wording of the Act I should have until March 3rd. Therefore the Charge Certificate does not comply with Paragraph 7 and is invalid. This is covered in the National Parking Adjudication Service case no. AY 05003B, titled 'Lukha and Aylesbury Vale District Council' and is available on Neil Herron's excellent website at The Peoples No Campaign - home So it looks like Rochdale Council is using invalid Charge Certificates to obtain Court Judgements against defaulters, then using these technically unlawful Court Judgements to set the bailiffs on you. I reckon anyone who has ever had a Charge Cert from Rochdale should look into it right away, you may be able to claim back any of the additional fees that bailiffs have extorted from you. Any thoughts?

I'll second that, good luck. Hopefully someone will have some case information for you. It's yet another example of exactly why the whole system needs changing and councils need to be forced into not using bailiffs willy-nilly to collect on overdue council tax. They are under pressure to collect, admittedly, but surely there is a better way than to set these thugs onto often the most vulnerable people in society? What would be wrong with just using attachment to earnings or attachment to benefits orders? After all, we all work or at least get some type of benefit. Hardly any extra work for the council and a much fairer and more transparent method of collecting tax due at source. Extra costs could still be added onto the amount owed so it needn't cost any extra money to the council. This is what happens now anyway if we all do the right thing and refuse to negotiate with any bailiffs. A person even more cynical than me (yes it is possible!) suggested that some council officials have been known to regularly take back-handers from bailiff firms in order to protect the status quo. The only people benefitting from the current set-up are the bailiffs. They see it as an easy [problem] to make fortunes and we are all guilty of letting them get away with it. If they all acted properly and within the guidelines they actually would not have a sustainable business. These firms only become profitable if unnecessary charges can be fraudulently added on. Get it stopped.

Don't be worried by baliffs collecting for council tax arrears! Almost everything that comes out of their mouths is at best questionable and of course carefully designed to scare people into parting with money that they don't have to part with. It's a [problem]. Providing you do not let them in the very worst they can do is pass your file back to the council, which is exactly what you want them to do! Write to the council recoveries department first, stating that you are unsure about certain charges added to your account by the bailiff company (true!) and that you have asked them for an explanation. Ask the council for your arrears balance and inform them that you will be paying them the arrears directly in installments, starting at the end of this month. Send another letter to the bailiff company requesting a detailed breakdown of all charges they have added, including dates and times of any visits etc. These two letters should put any recovery action on temporary hold immediately. Any bailiff that calls in the meantime can be told that their charges and conduct are being investigated by the council (true!) and that until the investigation is complete you will be continuing to pay your arrears to the council directly. Well done btw for not letting them in or signing anything. I would like to know more about the relationship between these bailiffs and the council though, pm me if you want with the council and bailiff names and I'll investigate.

I keep banging on about not sending any monies to bailiffs for council tax or parking fines - rather send it direct to the council, I must be boring everyone by now. Another perfect example of unlawful bailiff activity. Sadly it goes on every day but they just rely on the ignorance of the masses and keep getting away with it. You'll get your £100 back - eventually. But they won't care as they will have got away with this kind of thing a hundred-fold this month alone.

All is not lost perhaps. It appears that you signed the bailiff's paperwork 'under duress' having been intimidated by unlawful threats. The bailiff can be struck off for this. They have also overcharged, another strike against and also unlawful. Write to the council and inform them of this, sending a copy to the bailiff firm and a copy to your local county court clerk (they certificate the bailiffs). Next job, pay the council! Pay whatever you can afford as soon as possible and keep up regular payments. Do it online or over the automated phone service if possible, as if you attempt to do it any other way they will just try to refer you back to the bailiff. Hardly surprising that the bailiff behaved in this way as he was most likely self-employed and on commission, possibly up to 40%. It's in his interest to bump up the charges as much as possible. It beggars belief but unfortunately it is true.