MBNA/link - Judgement awarded against me - can't pay!

[joan_of_arc]

Hi again sillygirl1, if you (or anyone else!) get a chance to offer more guidelines as to what specifications I can use to defend myself I'd be really grateful; I want to get this letter off to the land registry as soon as possible. It's appalling that large companies can take advantage of people like this, just willy nilly run to the courts to apply charges on their property.

[AndyOrch]

Hi Joan

 

Link have gained a CCJ without your knowledge basically (and Forthwith by the the sounds of it)

Hence their speed in making application for The Interim CO, before you get your Redetermination into place.

 

 

Really quite underhand and nasty and then people wonder like forums like here exist to combat these leeches.

 

OK I assume you know the procedure the CO application process follows.

 

COs can only be gained on a Forthwith Judgment (IE if you dont settle within 28 days)

 

However you have been sent the N244 from the Court for Redetermination

and if successful blocks any attempt of application for a CO.

 

You do need to read and respond to the Interim in the mean time as I'm sure you are aware.

 

The first thing to do is to check to see whether the correct process has been followed.

At this point we will assume that any potential challenge to the legality of the Judgment has been carried out

(CCA request, Challenging default notices etc).

 

 

It is worth checking to ensure that the judgment has been entered correctly,

did the N30 form outline the determination process correctly?

If it didn’t you could consider a set aside.

 

 

It is worth checking the day the Interim order was applied for to see if the CCJ was actually in default on that day.(within the 28 days timeframe)

If an application to vary the terms of the CCJ has been sent to the court prior to the Interim Order request

ensure that the court considers the variation before considering the Interim Order.

 

 

The creditor must send a copy of the Interim Charging Order and Affidavit to all those with a legal and/or beneficial interest in the property,

for example the mortgage lender.

If this doesn’t occur the hearing will be adjourned.

 

Lets see what transfires firstly with you redetermination before we go deeper into the process to combat

 

Regards

 

Andy

[AndyOrch]

Hi Joan

 

Link have gained a CCJ without your knowledge basically (and Forthwith by the the sounds of it) Hence their speed in making application for The Interim CO, before you get your Redetermination into place. Really quite underhand and nasty and then people wonder like forums like here exist to combat these leeches.

OK I assume you know the procedure the CO application process follows.

COs can only be gained on a Forthwith Judgment (IE if you dont settle within 28 days)

However you have been sent the N244 from the Court for Redetermination and if successful blocks any attempt of application for a CO.

You do need to read and respond to the Interim in the mean time as I'm sure you are aware.

 

The first thing to do is to check to see whether the correct process has been followed. At this point we will assume that any potential challenge to the legality of the Judgment has been carried out (CCA request, Challenging default notices etc). It is worth checking to ensure that the judgment has been entered correctly, did the N30 form outline the determination process correctly? If it didn’t you could consider a set aside. It is worth checking the day the Interim order was applied for to see if the CCJ was actually in default on that day.(within the 28 days timeframe) If an application to vary the terms of the CCJ has been sent to the court prior to the Interim Order request ensure that the court considers the variation before considering the Interim Order. The creditor must send a copy of the Interim Charging Order and Affidavit to all those with a legal and/or beneficial interest in the property, for example the mortgage lender. If this doesn’t occur the hearing will be adjourned.

 

Lets see what transpires firstly with you redetermination before we go deeper into the process to combat

 

 

Regards

 

Andy

[hammyhound]

Joan, just subbing if I may, I also lost with Lloyds and am awaiting the Judgement forthwith to come through any day. As ever Andy is a star and I can keep up with this thread as it will become very useful.

 

HH

[joan_of_arc]

Thanks Andy.

Still struggling (and failing) to understand all this;

I'll get my husband to look over what you've said as everything after

"The first thing to do is to check to see whether the correct process has been followed"

is frying my brain and I don't understand it.

 

 

In the meantime the court have asked for details of both our income and expenditure (not just mine) as we are "living together as a couple"

so I'm about to send that off, and about to object to the CO.

[joan_of_arc]

Again, thanks sillygirl1,

but in the guidelines from the Land Registry it states that

"There are very few circumstances in which someone would be able successfully to object to such an application."

 

 

So as I understand it,

the court has made a charging order already,

without my being informed

and even if I object to the land registry there is little hope of opposing it successfully!

I'm very, very confused

[joan_of_arc]

...further,

in the bumpf from the Land Registry, following

"There are very few circumstances in which someone would be able successfully to object to such an application"

it states

"For instance, an objection on the following basis would not prevent completion of the application

- that you are already negotiating with the applicant as to how to pay off the money due or are paying in instalments. The court order is still valid

- that you do not agree with the order or that you own money to the applicant. You may be able to apply to the court to cancel the order but it is still valid.

 

(my bold and italics.)

 

the Land Registry are telling me that the court order to register a restriction against the land is valid anyway,

just because Link have applied for it, is that the case?

 

 

as well as sending the Land Registry my pointless and fruitless objection,

they're suggesting I apply to the court to get the order cancelled,

thus effectively passing the buck because they won't have the power to stop this order.

 

.how do I apply to the court to get the order cancelled because objecting to the Land Registry

is obviously a foregone conclusion total waste of my time.

[AndyOrch]

I think you are misinterpreting it Joan, no you cant object to the application, but you must make your objections anyway.Dosent mean their application will be successful and if it fails its still valid,just their application that is not your objection.

 

Think I need a lye down in a dim room now:madgrin:

[joan_of_arc]

Hi Andy, sorry if I wasn't quite getting it. Thanks anyway.

 

I got a letter from the Land Registry saying my objections were groundless, so looks like we'll have charge #2 on the house now

 

One thing is puzzling me and in fact, really annoying me:

the original claim from MBNA was for approximately £4700,

but Link have been awarded settlement for over £10K!

I have nothing to tell me where the extra £5.5K came from.

Is there anything I can do,

now that judgement has been made against me,

to obtain a breakdown of these sums?

It seems outrageous that the judgement is for over twice what the original debt was for!

[AndyOrch]

One thing is puzzling me and in fact, really annoying me: the original claim from MBNA was for approximately £4700, but Link have been awarded settlement for over £10K! I have nothing to tell me where the extra £5.5K came from. Is there anything I can do, now that judgment has been made against me, to obtain a Breakdown of these sums? It seems outrageous that the judgment is for over twice what the original debt was for!

Would puzzle me also, infact i would nightmares.Ring the Court that issued the Judgment and ask for explanation.The figure as to be correct if they intend securing it on a Charging Order Joan.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[joan_of_arc]

Hi Andy. Thanks for the reply.

 

Yes it has been giving me nightmares, quite literally.

 

 

I thought it seemed a lot but had to go back through the massive file of documents and check.

I can't find anything to justify such an added on amount.

 

I'll do as you suggest. If it's wrong, does the judgement still stand?

 

I'm really annoyed as I submitted my acknowledgement of service (online) within the 14 day deadline

(or thought I had) but judgement was awarded as if I hadn't.

[joan_of_arc]

Whoops, posted twice!

[joan_of_arc]

.if my online acknowledgement of service in which I clicked that I was objecting hasn't been registered, what do I do now?

 

 

Are companies really allowed to just dream up a figure,

go whining to the court that you owe this to them and then get a charge on the property just like that?

 

 

The land registry got back to me with a form letter btw rejecting my opposal and repeating what was said in their guidelines,

that as the court order has gone through it's only in rare cases they go against that.

 

 

The charge on the house came through this morning.

 

 

now Link have a charge on my property when they are trying to steal 5 grand from me,

and let's not forget that the orginal debt of £4,700 was partly made up of their unlawful charges in the first place.

 

 

What can I do?

 

 

I can't afford to travel to Cardiff for the hearing,

I need to do this on the phone or in writing.

 

 

Can they force a sale of my house now?

 

 

I'm literally tearing my hair out with worry,

this is just SO WRONG.

Edited September 19, 2010 by joan_of_arc
typo

[hillards]

...Can they force a sale of my house now?

In short - NO. There is a lower limit, I think £25,000 of debt, below which they cannot force a sale. The charging order is there to give the company an option to recover their money ONLY if you sell the property. It will sit there until you either have it revoked, or you pay them.

 

If you did not know that the case was going to court, you may be able to apply for a set aside, if you can demonstrate to the court that you did not receive the original summons, for example. I've just had this with a person I'm dealing with, the solicitor for the debt collection agency had obtained a CCJ when the person concerned knew nothing of it. That then goes back to the court and they can instruct the case to be re-started, allowing you chance to attend or make representations.

 

If you are on certain benefits you may not have to pay. Check with the court as they have a handy leaflet on the matter. If the court decides you a right, and set the matter aside, you get your money back if you have paid, so you're not just paying to take it to court, it's like putting a bet on - if you win, you get the stake back!

 

If you do not understand the jargon then it would be madness to represent yourself. You need to have a good knowledge of the terms that would be used by the judge and anyone representing the other side. Having said that, there are a lot of people here who can help you write a defence, which you then submit in writing. You can explain to the judge that you have had help in putting it together and do not fully understand procedures, they realise that most people are not up on the law.

 

Reading back on this thread, you have the opportunity to ask the court to transfer to one nearer to your home, so you can attend if you wish. Don't be afraid of the court, they are interested in justice, and can only act on the facts they are given. If you don't give them your side of the story they are only able to see what the other lot have said, and that's why so many judgements are given by default.

 

In effect, they've had an order made against you, which is tagged to the property, rather than try to make you pay in cash. You need to know how they arrived at that figure, what extra charges have been added, and why, so CAGgers can help you take it up with the court.

 

If you are sure the debt is mainly unlawful charges then you need to look at making a claim in that respect. There's lot of info on this site to help you with that too. If you've not already done so, think about sending a SAR to Link so you can see just what the debt is made up from, and from that you can start to make a case to have the debt reduced, if it is seen that they've slapped on loads of charges.

 

Forget the land registry for now, they will just deal with information issued by the courts, you need to get the court on your side to have that rectified.

[Ganymede]

In short - NO. There is a lower limit, I think £25,000 of debt, below which they cannot force a sale. The charging order is there to give the company an option to recover their money ONLY if you sell the property. It will sit there until you either have it revoked, or you pay them.

 

If you did not know that the case was going to court, you may be able to apply for a set aside, if you can demonstrate to the court that you did not receive the original summons, for example. I've just had this with a person I'm dealing with, the solicitor for the debt collection agency had obtained a CCJ when the person concerned knew nothing of it. That then goes back to the court and they can instruct the case to be re-started, allowing you chance to attend or make representations.

 

If you are on certain benefits you may not have to pay. Check with the court as they have a handy leaflet on the matter. If the court decides you a right, and set the matter aside, you get your money back if you have paid, so you're not just paying to take it to court, it's like putting a bet on - if you win, you get the stake back!

 

If you do not understand the jargon then it would be madness to represent yourself. You need to have a good knowledge of the terms that would be used by the judge and anyone representing the other side. Having said that, there are a lot of people here who can help you write a defence, which you then submit in writing. You can explain to the judge that you have had help in putting it together and do not fully understand procedures, they realise that most people are not up on the law.

 

Reading back on this thread, you have the opportunity to ask the court to transfer to one nearer to your home, so you can attend if you wish. Don't be afraid of the court, they are interested in justice, and can only act on the facts they are given. If you don't give them your side of the story they are only able to see what the other lot have said, and that's why so many judgements are given by default.

 

In effect, they've had an order made against you, which is tagged to the property, rather than try to make you pay in cash. You need to know how they arrived at that figure, what extra charges have been added, and why, so CAGgers can help you take it up with the court.

 

If you are sure the debt is mainly unlawful charges then you need to look at making a claim in that respect. There's lot of info on this site to help you with that too. If you've not already done so, think about sending a SAR to Link so you can see just what the debt is made up from, and from that you can start to make a case to have the debt reduced, if it is seen that they've slapped on loads of charges.

 

Forget the land registry for now, they will just deal with information issued by the courts, you need to get the court on your side to have that rectified.

 

 

Sorry that is wrong. There is currently no min. enforcemant limit.

[hillards]

To correct the info I gave - there is a proposal that a forced sale cannot be made for an amount under £25,000, it's not yet law. The document which outlines the proposal is here - I had read this a while ago and apologise for thinking it had been brought into play already.

Ganymede - was there a real need to quote the entire message just to add a one liner? The edit facility is quite extensive in allowing you to cut out bits that do not apply.

[joan_of_arc]

The charging order is there to give the company an option to recover their money ONLY if you sell the property. It will sit there until you either have it revoked, or you pay them.

 

Thanks hillards, that's a relief. We don't plan on selling the property as we've done a lot to it and have put roots down now. I've got an old insurance policy maturing in a couple of years and am planning to use it to make offers to all my creditors as I want to be debt free; it's not that I'm trying to get away with paying my debts, although I think the credit card companies are **** for their abuse of the system and their unlawful practices (not only unlawful charges but also telephone harrassment, which can and does lead to suicides.)

 

If you did not know that the case was going to court, you may be able to apply for a set aside,

 

I did know, and as I said I tried to object online within the 14 days but the case has proceeded as though I hadn't objected.

 

If you are on certain benefits you may not have to pay.

 

Thanks but not on benefits.

 

If you do not understand the jargon then it would be madness to represent yourself.

 

I wouldn't call it jargon myself; it is a foreign language, and I think it is totally unacceptable that the judicial system is allowed to speak in this foreign language which alienates laymen and thus enforces the necessity to hire a lawyer.

 

I made the mistake of representing myself last year after encouragement to do so on here. No disrespect to anyone who gave me advice at the time, but with hindsight it was bad advice. I agree with you hillards. If is madness to represent yourself unless you speak the language. I was humiliated beyond belief, I lost the case, and it was one of the most distressing events of my life, one which I will never, ever, repeat. If I can't afford a lawyer, I don't go to court.

 

If you are sure the debt is mainly unlawful charges then you need to look at making a claim in that respect. There's lot of info on this site to help you with that too. If you've not already done so, think about sending a SAR to Link so you can see just what the debt is made up from, and from that you can start to make a case to have the debt reduced, if it is seen that they've slapped on loads of charges.

 

I sent a SAR to MBNA a while back and it is from that I can see that they sold the debt on at £4,700. I will send a SAR to Link too, but my worry is that the case is due in court in 2 weeks and I won't be there. My questions now are:

 

Should I apply to get the case transferred to my local court, simply to delay proceedings?

 

Can I telephone the court as andyorch has suggested (and in my experience andyorch's info is always on the money) and complain in person on the phone about the amount Link are taking me to court for?

[hammyhound]

Joan,

 

if your property is jointly owned but you are the debtor a creditor can only place a restriction on the property which is worthless. It will not stop you from selling your home and they still will not receive a penny from it.

 

Please check this link out borrowed from here which explains it all.

 

http://www.bllaw.co.uk/pdf/financeandrecoveries_0806_charging%20orders%20on%20property.pdf

 

I had a redetermination hearing and the creditor wanted their CO application heard on the same date which is wasn't. It was heard 1 month later. Judge said "no CO instalment order in place". The only hope is that your redetermination hearing comes before the CO application. If it doesn't and they do obtain a charging order the above link will explain it is worthless anyway.

 

I know what you mean about representing yourself in court. I did with Lloyds and the barrister run rings around me - didn't have a chance even though application form with no prescribed terms and no DN. Never again.

 

HH

[hillards]

Ah, I missed that before. You've already done the SAR, I was looking at Link as the original creditor and they are not. Link should have made the details clear in their submission to the court, but may have just put a total.

 

As Andyorch said, you should have questioned the amount that Link eventually claimed through the court system, and made a move to transfer to your local court, although that should only be done if you intend to go or have representation. The courts don't like it if you do that just to delay things, unless you are intending being there.

 

I don't think you would get very far on the phone to the court, they may confirm the details but can't do much about the amount if it wasn't disputed at the time. If you didn't offer a defence then the judge will have had to make a decision on what evidence he had in front of him. Sorry, but that's how it works.

 

They should be able to confirm if your objection was received, if not that could be grounds for a set-aside and set the matter back to the hearing stage again. But, you have to be clear on what you are doing, and present something meaningful to the court that justifies your application, otherwise there's not much point as you'll lose money doing that.

 

As Ganymede pointed out, the enforcement limit does not (yet) apply, but they would have to go to the court to ask a judge to give the go ahead to issue an order. You have to do something to try and rectify the situation, before it gets any worse. At worst, you would need to go to the court to object to the order being enforced, if that is what Link are doing.

 

If it were me, I would be looking around for a solicitor. There are some who give a free consultation via the local CAB. OK, it's only a short one, but enough for them to advise on a course of action, unless someone on here comes up with something for you. I can voice an opinion, based on what I know personally, but would not like to start drafting a defence for you as it goes way beyond my comfort zone.

 

Some people have involved their local MP in their case, where they stand to lose their home. Without meaning to sound cruel, you need to show that you have been doing your best to defend the action, but, because you're not a lawyer, you need help in stopping the court order from being enforced.

 

I was just about to post my reply then noticed hammyhound had replied too, so I've had a quick read of that response - see if that is of help to you. It explained a few things I wasn't aware of - despite my initial shock at sticks of dynamite appearing on my screen!

 

The key point seems to be that if the charging order is made against one person, and the house is registered in joint names, then the order is virtually useless. I did not the article was published in 2006, and do not know if any changes have been made since then.

 

EDIT: See also this thread - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?44739-Charging-Order-Court-Advice-please - the case against the charging order was won quite easily it seems. It refers to a National Debtline factsheet, which has lots of useful info.

Edited September 19, 2010 by hillards
add link to other thread

[joan_of_arc]

Joan,

 

if your property is jointly owned but you are the debtor a creditor can only place a restriction on the property which is worthless. It will not stop you from selling your home and they still will not receive a penny from it.

 

Please check this link out borrowed from here which explains it all.

 

http://www.bllaw.co.uk/pdf/financeandrecoveries_0806_charging%20orders%20on%20property.pdf

 

 

Thanks Hammyhound, that makes it all clear.

 

I know what you mean about representing yourself in court. I did with Lloyds and the barrister run rings around me - didn't have a chance even though application form with no prescribed terms and no DN. Never again.

HH

 

The thread about it last year was very popular. In the end I felt like the lurkers were getting a vicarious pleasure out of my David and Goliath battle, with me sure to lose of course...which I did. Like you, never again.

Edited September 19, 2010 by joan_of_arc
typo

[joan_of_arc]

As Andyorch said, you should have questioned the amount that Link eventually claimed through the court system,

 

Thanks, but as I've already said, I filled in the acknowledgement of service online intending to dispute the amount, but the CO was granted anyway.

 

and made a move to transfer to your local court, although that should only be done if you intend to go or have representation.

 

I didn't apply to move to local court because, as I have already said, I'm never going to represent myself again as it would be insanity to do so.

 

but can't do much about the amount if it wasn't disputed at the time.

 

I thought I was disputing it by filling in the acknowledgement of service! So, my question is still, what do I do now? I can't afford legal representation, absolutely out of the question, so how do I get my message across to the court that link have bunged on another 5 grand to the original MBNA debt and object to that? Can't I just write a letter to the court with accompanying evidence?

 

They should be able to confirm if your objection was received, if not that could be grounds for a set-aside and set the matter back to the hearing stage again.

 

OK, thanks.

 

...despite my initial shock at sticks of dynamite appearing on my screen!

 

Eh? Don't understand.

 

The key point seems to be that if the charging order is made against one person, and the house is registered in joint names, then the order is virtually useless. I did not the article was published in 2006, and do not know if any changes have been made since then.

 

EDIT: See also this thread - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?44739-Charging-Order-Court-Advice-please - the case against the charging order was won quite easily it seems. It refers to a National Debtline factsheet, which has lots of useful info.

 

Very useful links, many thanks hillards.

[hillards]

>>> ..despite my initial shock at sticks of dynamite appearing on my screen!

Eh? Don't understand.

In the article that was linked, it opened up as two magazine type pages, with the sticks of dynamite the first thing I saw...

[joan_of_arc]

In the article that was linked, it opened up as two magazine type pages, with the sticks of dynamite the first thing I saw...

 

Oh, right, I see, sorry, another blond moment.

 

I rang the court and my only option is to get the case transferred to my regional court,

and go and complain about the amount of interest they've added.

 

 

Without legal representation I fear I would be laughed out of court again (OK their faces aren't laughing but they're laughing internally at me,

johnny foreignor, stumbling along trying to speak their elite divisive and exclusive language.)

 

 

And then I would have their costs added on to the already preposterous amount they're trying to claim from me. I just don't know what to do.

[AndyOrch]

Hi Joan

 

From reading your posts since your initial post

I think it would benefit you and other Caggers the sequence of events in this matter,

good writing practice ha ha!!!.

 

lets start with a little history re the initial debt and reasons for the dispute, who was the OC before assigned?

 

date assigned and was you informed was the amount transfered to Plink correct?

 

Ok litigation, date of the summons pre action protocol from Plink?

 

Default Notice /Termination Notice did you receive have you a copy?

 

N1 PoC details Claimant and amount?

 

Your response, AoS, Plea, did you print off your receipt?

 

Defence did you submit one? ( i am surmising not with the out come) why not?

 

Requests from OC/Claimant SAR CCA CPR?

 

If you could flesh the bones a tad I think it would be invaluable to the assistance you receive.

 

 

Regards

 

Andy

[joan_of_arc]

Hi Joan

 

From reading your posts since your initial post I think it would benefit you and other Caggers the sequence of events in this matter, good writing practice ha ha!!!.

 

Good idea andyorch.

I'll do it later when I finish work.

 

 

I rang the court and it looks like I'm going to ask for the case to be transferred to my local court and despite everything I was saying earlier,

 

 

I'm going to have to go and defend myself because I'm so angry they've added on all this extra interest

(not as much as I thought earlier, but still over a couple of grand.)

 

 

and if I want to have a say I have no choice but to go to court.

 

 

It stinks,

the fact that I can't afford a legal representative

and they can which is going to prejudice me.