bos

[applecart]

I am sure that you appreciate Apple that there are those who have had their victories and those who have helped others too and can claim their t shirt status. There are also those (my self included) who are fighting our battles now and therefore our sense of urgency and the search for the right answers, is a little more essential than just the casual browser. Most of us are not generally handing out advice, but fighting to secure our cars today, our financial futures today. Anything that adds clarity to the fog is welcomed and if that means some of us would be a little more encouraged by credible evidence, or just a peek of the t shirt that shows that there is evidence (hope) , shores us up, which is not a bad thing.

 

 

Hip Hop

 

You are already getting more than a 'peek' at the 't-shirt' - I am on the forum : )

 

I try not to be ambiguous - I try to keep my messages clear - if they are not readily interpreted - then accept my apologies - but essentially - you are 'peeking the t-shirt' in every sense of the word.

 

Apple : )

[applecart]

Hi Apple

 

Thanks for clarifying.

 

I dont actually have an agreement with LBL. Mine is different in that i bought the car and the loan is secured on it through a BOS from the funding corporation.

 

Apple, could you also clarify if the agent who sold me the car is classed as a credible witness?

If not, then im hoping my BOS is void on two counts. IF that is the case, im still no clearer about what that actually means?

 

Idealling, i want to end the CCA as i can no longer afford the car and fuel, or i would like to at least reduce my payments. If the BOS is void, can i do either of these things?

 

Thanks

 

Hi Ya

 

The 'credible witness' is an on-going saga nikkikitch ...... a credible witness is one that the Judge determines to be 'credible'..... there is an argument that says.... if the representative is the person that 'witness's' the BoS - then how credible could he be? - would he have explained the BoS advising you of the dire situation you face in the event you default? possibly not ...... he would be more interested in getting the paperwork done so as to claim his commission ..... it is for the 'representative' to prove his credibility and for you to argue against it with proof tools that show that he could never be considered 'credible' - my thoughts are that this would be an argument of 'probability' without substantiating evidence - and therefore is not a strong defence on its own, but there is no harm done by including such an allegation alongside other arguments if you can substantiate your statement.

 

I have had no dealings with the Funding Corporation - so I'm not well placed to answer you directly - sorry; however what I do know is that most loans are by way of credit agreements undeer the CCA 1974 as amended and that because of this law you have consumer rights and that Law is for the interest of the consumer.

 

So in general; if you wish to end the agreement - you can - you have to follow the correct procedure - the process is explained within the CCA 1974; consider if you have paid at least a third or a half of the monies due under the agreement in order to know which action to take.

 

Your Bill of Sale is clearly registered out of time, you need to make sure that they have not taken steps to rectify it; you then need to make an application to the county court for a declaration that will declare the Bill of Sale Void.

 

Once this is done, you will then need to consider the outstanding loan as party to the overall agreement; check the BoS to see what references it makes to the agreement - nine times out of ten - the agreement will show the Bill of Sale as the 'security' - the lender will not be able to amend the agreement without you agreeing for him to do so; the CCA 1974 advises that the agreement must not only contain the prescribed information, but must effectively only contain information that is true on its face - now, once the bill of sale is declared void...... it effectively will never have existed since its inception (i.e from the start of the agreement) so.... any mention of a Bill of Sale causes the agreement to fall short of the CCA 1974 because it will not include all the 'true' terms of the agreement between you and the lender - hope this makes sense? basically what I am saying - is that the agreement stands alone - it has no security - but makes mention of a security - which will not be true....... an argument that you can put before a judge for his consideration.

 

Without more information - I cannot advise further - but I hope this helps : )

 

Apple : )

[Hip_Hop]

I can't see your reply .Can you reply again as I need you r response urgently please. Would you also give an opinion on my attestation thread. Thanks.

Hip_Hop

Hi Hip Hop

 

I replied.

 

You need to clear space in your in-box though : )

 

Apple

[nikkikitch]

Hi Apple

 

Thats really helpful thanks! I've PM'd you also.

 

Nikki

[nikkikitch]

Hi Apple

 

I tried to PM you, but you're full up

 

Thanks so much for your response. Its definitely the clearest ive had so far!

 

So i wondered, if i apply to the county court and have the BOS made void, what does this mean in terms of repaying the outstanding? Does it mean i have more leway with payments given that they wouldnt be able to take my car!?

 

The car isnt on hire purchase, its a secured loan on the car. You said if i have paid a 3rd, i might be able to hand the car back. Does that mean a 3rd of the cars value or a 3rd of the finance including interest? I have already paid over a third of the cars selling price and then some!

 

All i want is to get out of this arrangement as painlessly as possible. I very stupidly rush purchased the car due to necessity and didnt consider the implications in terms of fuel and insurance. (its a 2.0l and costs me £250 per month in fuel!)

 

Im due to make a payment on Friday so if there is ANYTHING i can do either reduce the payments or hand the car back that would be fantastic!

 

Thanks

 

Nikki

[OBWanBenoni]

If you use CCTV's logic to the 7 day rule why has any BOS ever been registered with the Supreme Court?

 

If I was issueing BOS and it worked the way the CCTV thinks it does I would not register the BOS until the person defaulted, then it would definalty be there within 7 days. I've been to the Supreme Court and I have seen the BOS registers - they use the date the BOS was signed by the borrower. There are many BOS in those registers that have been registered late.

 

I also have correspondance of Mobile Money and they also use the date the BOS was signed by the borrower, they were trying to convince me that 10 days was actually 7 days - shame I have a degree in Maths!

 

7 clear days starts the day after the BOS was signed and does include weekends. So if your BOS was signed on a Wednesday, thursday would be day 1 and the following wednesday is day 7. If you google clear days it is quite easy to find the definition.

 

My court case has gone very quiet, the deadline for the allocation questionaire was back in August and I haven't heard anything since - is this normal?

[applecart]

Hi Apple

 

I tried to PM you, but you're full up

 

Thanks so much for your response. Its definitely the clearest ive had so far!

 

So i wondered, if i apply to the county court and have the BOS made void, what does this mean in terms of repaying the outstanding? Does it mean i have more leway with payments given that they wouldnt be able to take my car!?

 

The car isnt on hire purchase, its a secured loan on the car. You said if i have paid a 3rd, i might be able to hand the car back. Does that mean a 3rd of the cars value or a 3rd of the finance including interest? I have already paid over a third of the cars selling price and then some!

 

All i want is to get out of this arrangement as painlessly as possible. I very stupidly rush purchased the car due to necessity and didnt consider the implications in terms of fuel and insurance. (its a 2.0l and costs me £250 per month in fuel!)

 

Im due to make a payment on Friday so if there is ANYTHING i can do either reduce the payments or hand the car back that would be fantastic!

 

Thanks

 

Nikki

 

Hi Nikki

 

Once the BoS is declared void; it will mean that the lender cannot seize your car at any time as it is no longer party to the agreement.

 

Considering yours is a 'secured loan' on a car - I interpret this to mean that you owned the car and then took out a loan - and offered your car as security for the loan - is that right?

 

All loans made over £30.00 are covered by the CCA 1974; granted we refer to HP agreements as though they are somehow separate from a loan governed by the CCA - this is a misconception - All loans that fall under the CCA 1974 are credit agreements and the rules of the CCA apply to all loans except where it specifically states otherwise.

 

In order for the vehicle to have been provided as a security for your loan the agreement will have to show details of the vehicle on the 'face' of the document... right? (if it doesn't; then it was never a 'security' for the loan)

 

Now read carefully....... the CCA 1974 states that an agreement must show prescribed information and that information must be 'true' and cannot contain information that is misleading or false - when the BoS is no longer party to the picture - this renders the agreement to be a document that on its face is 'misleading and false'.

 

The only way for the Lender to get his money outstanding under the loan is for the lender to take you to court he would have to put the same said agreement in front of a Judge as his evidence of the loan made - right?; when you point out that the agreement is in breach of the CCA 1974 because it purports to have a security as party to your defence - the lender will be unable to produce a BoS as evidence (certainly, you won't be able to either - other than to show your declaration that the one that purported to exist was invalid and unenforceable from inception) - the Judge will be asked to consider the validity of the agreement and consider if due to the fact that the agreement stands as a document with false information on its face if it meets the prescribed terms of the CCA.

 

It would appear on this basis that you have every right to take the matter into dispute with the lender - I don't know anyone that throws good money after bad - advise the lender that you suspect the validity of the BoS and advise that you will not be making any further payments until such time as the matter is resolved.

 

Immediately write off to the HCJ (details of how to do that - I have posted previously) gather your ammunition (you will need it) and then once you have secured the fact that it is a document that has not been rectified - advise the lender of your intention to seek redress in a court of law. A simple letter to them giving 14 days notice will suffice and send it recorded delivery. Keep a copy on file. After 14 days - make a claim in your local county court - simply stating that you seek a declaration that the Bill of Sale is Void because it is registered 'without prejudice' and has not been rectified - attach your evidence as provided by the HCJ.

 

If the lender takes your claim as an opportunity to counterclaim - do not get confused; both will be dealt with separately if you request it.

 

The counterclaim must not be for any monies outstanding; where they do this - the lender is confusing protocol - so that you know - your argument will simply be - that given that the agreement does not meet the prescribed terms of the CCA - the lender cannot seek enforcement of the agreement through a court of law without first getting an order to render the agreement enforceable.

 

If the lender 'cuts to the chase' and seeks an order to enforce the agreement; he will have to convince the Judge that an enforcement is lawful; there are many reasons why the Judge should not do so and I will advise you under separate cover for your argument on this point - this will depend on the terms of your agreement and the terms of the BoS (we can talk privately about that as and when and if it becomes necessary - ok?)

 

But I hear you when you say you want to get out of this as 'painlessly as possible' - there is no gain without a little pain I'm afraid - however, your other option is to consider if you are in a position based on the terms of your agreement to give them the car as a total settlement - but you cannot guarantee that this will not leave a shortfall??

 

If this helps you further; then alls good - ultimately the decision is yours : )

 

Apple : )

[applecart]

If you use CCTV's logic to the 7 day rule why has any BOS ever been registered with the Supreme Court?

 

If I was issueing BOS and it worked the way the CCTV thinks it does I would not register the BOS until the person defaulted, then it would definalty be there within 7 days. I've been to the Supreme Court and I have seen the BOS registers - they use the date the BOS was signed by the borrower. There are many BOS in those registers that have been registered late.

 

I also have correspondance of Mobile Money and they also use the date the BOS was signed by the borrower, they were trying to convince me that 10 days was actually 7 days - shame I have a degree in Maths!

 

7 clear days starts the day after the BOS was signed and does include weekends. So if your BOS was signed on a Wednesday, thursday would be day 1 and the following wednesday is day 7. If you google clear days it is quite easy to find the definition.

 

My court case has gone very quiet, the deadline for the allocation questionaire was back in August and I haven't heard anything since - is this normal?

 

Hi Ya

 

Loving your logic on determining the 7 days and for those caggers who are unsure - the reference to Google for definition will be a great aid to use as party to a claim or defence in court - but Queens bench guide and the BoS Act 1882 are the other tools needed to dispute a BoS..... oooh and the evidence that can be easily gained from the HCJ : )

 

Take heart; whilst a case is in court any lender would be foolish to tamper with any ones vehicle : )

 

Apple : )

[applecart]

Hi Hip Hop

 

I have pm'd you. : )

 

There is more info that you should find useful within these pages also.

 

Best of luck.

 

Apple : )

[nikkikitch]

Hi Apple

 

Sorry im not being clear, no, i purchased the car and finance together, so the finance is secured on the car.

 

Ive just had a thought though, i purchased the car on the 21st December 2009 and the BOS was stamped on 29th, i imagine Christmas day wouldnt count towards the 7 day rule would it?

Some other inaccuracies between the BOS and CCA though, the CCA states the finance will be setlled over 49 months whearas the BOS says 48 payments, does this go anyway to making it invalid?

 

If by any luck, the BOS is still void even taking into consideration the Christmas holidays and i ask the county court to declare it void and stop making the payments until resolved, then will it affect my credit rating?

Also would i have to attend court at any point? Do i need legal represenation etc?

 

If the option was to hand the car back as settlement, then to be honest at this stage i would take that! It would be frustrating having paid so much towards the car and essentially coming away with nothing, but then i just want rid! Thinking about it though, if the CCA became unenforceable along with the BOS then wouldnt i be able to claim back what id already paid given that both are void? (just wishful thinking now

 

Thanks again for all your help.

 

Nikki

[nikkikitch]

Ps- can they take my car if i dont make the payments until the case is settled?

[nikkikitch]

Guys

 

Ive just googled 'clear day' definition and the definition is:

 

''days reckoned from one day to another, excluding both the first and last day; as, from Sunday to Sunday there are six clear days''.

 

So in my case, the BOS was signed on 21st and stamped on 29th so going by this definition, not counting 21st and the 29th, that would be 7 clear days making it valid

[nikkikitch]

Or have i got that completely wrong and it has to be signed WITHIN the 7 days? arrrghhh so confusing!

[Hip_Hop]

Thanks Apple, I haven't received it. Tried to prompt with a PM but you need to clear space in your in-box too LOL

 

Let me have your response again please.

 

 

Hi Hip Hop

 

I replied.

 

You need to clear space in your in-box though : )

 

Apple

[applecart]

Hi Apple

 

Sorry im not being clear, no, i purchased the car and finance together, so the finance is secured on the car.

 

Ive just had a thought though, i purchased the car on the 21st December 2009 and the BOS was stamped on 29th, i imagine Christmas day wouldnt count towards the 7 day rule would it?

Some other inaccuracies between the BOS and CCA though, the CCA states the finance will be setlled over 49 months whearas the BOS says 48 payments, does this go anyway to making it invalid?

 

If by any luck, the BOS is still void even taking into consideration the Christmas holidays and i ask the county court to declare it void and stop making the payments until resolved, then will it affect my credit rating?

Also would i have to attend court at any point? Do i need legal represenation etc?

 

If the option was to hand the car back as settlement, then to be honest at this stage i would take that! It would be frustrating having paid so much towards the car and essentially coming away with nothing, but then i just want rid! Thinking about it though, if the CCA became unenforceable along with the BOS then wouldnt i be able to claim back what id already paid given that both are void? (just wishful thinking now

 

Thanks again for all your help.

 

Nikki

 

Hi Nikki

 

I spotted a separate thread that you posted and replied there for you tonight.....

 

Xmas day is a public holiday and because the offices would be closed - it does not count in your favor or that of the lender either.

 

Inaccuracies are a 'technicality' - but essentially we have to 'stack up the 'technicalities' in order to gain 'points' in our 'favor' - look at the CCA section 105, 106 - and also S. 60 - 67 to get a better picture of where you stand on this point.

 

Lenders rely on their own interpretation of a agreement being in default to affect your credit rating - if you can show that they did so unlawfully - then you should be compensated for their error - however, if you truly have an issue with the BoS and you genuinely beleive and can evidence the reason for 'refraining to make payments' then I wouldn't pay them a single penny - that's party to your civil right - why would you pay on a loan that you are genuinely disputing based on lawful FACT?

 

If you do not have the confidence to fight the case alone - or do not have the confidence to take this case forward alone - it would always be advisable to use a legal advisor to package and present the facts for you - on the other hand - if you feel confident and can interpret the Law to a level to defend yourself - why incurr the legal fees of a solictor?? - may caggers move their claiams against lender successfully - but be cautioned - one mans ability to take a matter through the legal system is different from anothers - you need to consider your own personal ability on this point Nikki - only you will know your strengths? - but gather as many facts as you can - and then present them to a solicitor - do not assume because they are labelled 'solicitor' that they understand your situation or the relevant law to support your case.

 

In answer to your final point - yes... if the Bos is void and the CCa is void - then yes.... you would stand to gain a re-payment of all payments made under the agreement.

 

Proceed with caution though - stack up your facts - if they don't stack up - be prepared to discuss other options with your lender - a cheaper way is to go through the CAB if this is the case.

 

Apple : )

[Nicky Bodmin]

Hi Guys,

 

I have poss found a spanner in the works that just might cause the lovely Loan companies to sweat lots.

 

Question for Apple Trooper and all the site. Please put all heads together.

 

Can anyone one find a ref in any act to do with secured lending with ref the chattels or the item that is securing the loan. Any ref the requirement of the legislation for the lenders to ask the borrowers to prove title.

 

PLEASE THIS IS SO IMPORTANTANT TO ALL WHO HAVE TAKEN OUT SECURED LOANS.

 

There has got to be a line ref some were asking for a doc proof of title to enable the lender to grant the loan.

In other words true ownership.

IE Proof of purchase or transfer of title.

 

 

I no that there will be some thing we need to find it.

They cant lend if title on the security hasnt been proven

[Nicky Bodmin]

Hi guys

 

What about approaching the Pro-bono unit they offer free help through up to the hearing and the bar pro-bono will do the hearing for you.

Its all free. But get all your facts and case in the best order you can then you will stand a much better chance of help.

 

Or why dont we all have a group case against them

[nikkikitch]

Hi All

 

To let you know, ive sought legal help today and so will report back on any progress.

Ive sent my papers for scrutinisation and i hope and pray theres something i can use to settle my arrangement ASAP!

 

N

[Hip_Hop]

Hi All

 

To let you know, ive sought legal help today and so will report back on any progress.

Ive sent my papers for scrutinisation and i hope and pray theres something i can use to settle my arrangement ASAP!

 

 

N

Hi Nikkikitch,

 

I hope you find resolution and a legal remedy soon to your issues with LBL. The very best of luck. Please share info where you can, without obviously compromising yourself.

 

Regards

 

Hip_Hop

[applecart]

Hi Guys,

 

I have poss found a spanner in the works that just might cause the lovely Loan companies to sweat lots.

 

Question for Apple Trooper and all the site. Please put all heads together.

 

Can anyone one find a ref in any act to do with secured lending with ref the chattels or the item that is securing the loan. Any ref the requirement of the legislation for the lenders to ask the borrowers to prove title.

 

PLEASE THIS IS SO IMPORTANTANT TO ALL WHO HAVE TAKEN OUT SECURED LOANS.

 

There has got to be a line ref some were asking for a doc proof of title to enable the lender to grant the loan.

In other words true ownership.

IE Proof of purchase or transfer of title.

 

 

I no that there will be some thing we need to find it.

They cant lend if title on the security hasnt been proven

 

Hi Nicky;

 

The CCA 1974 s.105 - 107 makes reference to Security interests. The Bill of Sale Act 1882 may also shine some light on this matter for you?.

 

Take these following points into consideration as well - A lender has to be registered with the OFT to lend money to borrowers. Currently, LBL meet this requirement; albeit under appeal....

 

Secondly... in order for a borrower to proffer a vehicle as security - the onus would be on the borrower to show proof of ownership - i.e log book showing car registered in the borrowers name; Car Insurance Docs; proof of ID by way of a household bill and so on....

 

Lenders then should/would generally carry out a hpi check on the vehicle; and they could/should check online with the DVLA as to the registered keeper to verify the info given by the borrower as to ownership ...... If I was a Judge; I'd certainly be interested in why they would not have done so.....given they should have the means to do so - and..... considering that they intend to use the said vehicle as a security.

 

Surely there is an argument for 'good practice' and 'administration of loans' to make sure that the vehicle is actually owned by the prospective borrower??.........

 

There may be other legal references available to you as well - it's got to be worth looking into anything to do with 'financial lending law' - 'administration law' or anything like that to get an idea of regulatory legal administrative practices??

 

Apple : )

[applecart]

Hi All

 

To let you know, ive sought legal help today and so will report back on any progress.

Ive sent my papers for scrutinisation and i hope and pray theres something i can use to settle my arrangement ASAP!

 

N

 

Hi Nikkikitch

 

I agree; given that we first thought that your BoS was void; then with more info; it points to being valid - it's a shrewed move to get the docs scrutinised.

 

My prayers are with you so that you can get a speedy solution.

 

Apple : )

[applecart]

Hi guys

 

What about approaching the Pro-bono unit they offer free help through up to the hearing and the bar pro-bono will do the hearing for you.

Its all free. But get all your facts and case in the best order you can then you will stand a much better chance of help.

 

Or why dont we all have a group case against them

 

Hi Nicky

 

I thought Your case was already in court?

 

Apple : )

[Nicky Bodmin]

Hi Apple,

 

Yeh my case is in court.

 

I have an appointment with my local police I had an hr long conversation the other day. I put in a complaint to head quaters. Well it had the response I was looking for. I explained that it looks from the outside as if LBL have a right over these cars or at least my car. Then I went into detail about the bill of sale and what voids it and how it works and they are interested in seeing my paperwork. It will be a majour break through if I get them to press charges for all of us.

 

I have a word of advise for anyone taking action Apple I will PM you what I have done the OFT have taken it and are using it as part of case. The more we can get the more corrupt we can prove they

 

I will PM now so empty your box this is very important

[Nicky Bodmin]

Hi Apple,

 

Yeh my case is in court.

 

I have an appointment with my local police I had an hr long conversation the other day. I put in a complaint to head quaters. Well it had the response I was looking for. I explained that it looks from the outside as if LBL have a right over these cars or at least my car. Then I went into detail about the bill of sale and what voids it and how it works and they are interested in seeing my paperwork. It will be a majour break through if I get them to press charges for all of us.

 

I have a word of advise for anyone taking action Apple I will PM you what I have done the OFT have taken it and are using it as part of case. The more we can get the more corrupt we can prove they

 

I will PM now so empty your box this is very important

[Nicky Bodmin]

Hi Apple,

 

 

NO NO NO,

 

The V5 is not proof of legal ownership It is printed just under the keeper details part of the document.

The only thing that can prove that a person owns a car is the receipt of purchase from the seller, or a letter of transfer of ownership from the owner of the car to the buyer.

This is the only proof that there is.

A V5 is only proof of the person that drives and taxes insures the car to drive on the road. I have in the last week spent my time talking 3 times at length with DVLA thrown every possiblity at them. Not proof of ownership.

I have spoken to Which Legal, Which Money, OFT 4 solicitors 2 Barrister 2 police officers and all say the same proof of legal ownership is not the V5 but Bill of sale ie Receipt proof of sale from seller to buyer or transfer letter.

 

Now do you see were I'm going with this, if we can find the legislation that makes the productions of proof of ownership by way of receipt then not one of the loans not one is legal. LBL use the V5 and a declaration of ownership. This is not proof and will not stand up in court.

Come on guys and site I no its there some where