Business account over 19,000 in bank charges.** SETTLED IN FULL ***

[dolfos]

thanks guys for all these words of support. Still no response but did lodge complaint with financial ombudsman as stated and had a telephone call from them today however as it is all in my husbands name they need to speak to him. I have just texted him contact details to ring them back and will update their response as soon as I know.

just wanted to say not forgotten you guys a BIG THANKYOU ! X

[dolfos]

Good god!!! I have really read it all now £25k worth of charges and interest????? They really do make me sick!!!!

 

Dolfos, it looks as if you are doing a great job, not sure whereabouts you are in the UK, but if you want ANY help with your case (it will have to be after January due to work commitments) just give me a shout and I would be happy to help, even if you need some presence in Court.

 

Good luck!!!

 

thanks for this I think any court stuff will be after January anyway now. May very well take you up on this offer. Thanks again

x

[dolfos]

ok,

FSA spoken to and they needed some additional info ie to check business turnover was less than 1 million a year and also for the company nameeven though sole trader. They are going to give us their findings in 7 days (after xmas).

I'm not holding my breath but at least we can honestly say we have tried to resolve this without going to court. This is the last avenue to try before court which i think is still gonna be the way HSBC will push this!

[HSBCrusher]

We have not forgotten about you either... I pop my head around the door now and then.

 

I can see you having to go to court over this, but you can show how reasonable you have been.

 

Each step is a step closer....

[bottomburp]

Dolfos, Did you see the Money section of yesterday's Sunday Times? There's are article on page 19 - "BANKS RAKE IN 1,200% ON OVERDRAFTS". It's about a quarter of a page long so I won't post it all on here but here's the link Banks rake in 1,200% on overdrafts - Newspaper Edition - Times Online

 

In it is says "Walter Merricks, the chief financial ombudsman, said banks should now pay customers' claims in full even before they get to the FOS, or explain why their charges are legal."

 

I am keeping my fingers crossed for you and yours.

 

Best wishes.

[gemspan]

Hi Dolfos

 

I just wanted to post to offer you my support. I too have just had to ditch the business I have been running for 4 years and now am looking for a full time job. The banks shafted me too - Bank of Scotland and now HSBC.

 

I wish you all the very best with your claim. You are a very brave lady indeed and one to be greatly admired. It would appear to me from your IVA that perhaps you wouldnt have had to go down the IVA route had HSBC not been so greedy and slammed on these charges on.

 

Once you have the money I really do hope that you go all the way with HSBC to reclaim the money you have lost in addition to the charges ie selling your home, losing your business because of these charges. I also hope that you can claim damages for the pain and distress this has caused you. I will keep my eye on this thread and cant wait until you put up that you have won the case.

 

I think you are doing a great service to all us small business people who have lost their businesses because of the banks.

 

I wish you a very Merry Christmas and a very very prosperous New Year.

 

Kind regards

Gemspan

[dolfos]

Dolfos, Did you see the Money section of yesterday's Sunday Times? There's are article on page 19 - "BANKS RAKE IN 1,200% ON OVERDRAFTS". It's about a quarter of a page long so I won't post it all on here but here's the link Banks rake in 1,200% on overdrafts - Newspaper Edition - Times Online

 

In it is says "Walter Merricks, the chief financial ombudsman, said banks should now pay customers' claims in full even before they get to the FOS, or explain why their charges are legal."

 

I am keeping my fingers crossed for you and yours.

 

Best wishes.

 

thanks for this. The lady from the FO said to hold all action regarding court till they investigate what the banks responce is so we'll see. I watched the money program 'bank robbery' last week which was interesting listening to some HSBC bloke squeal and try and wriggle and squirm around every question without answering anything at all. Sounds about right I guess. It was also interesting that the three bank guys came up with what they considerd true costs ie no more than 4UKP for a returned cheque and i think it was no more than 2UKP for returned DD's and SO. Even a barrister had the view banks should refund on TV I didn't hear any of their legal experts putting up their reasons to believe they could successfully defend any case in court.

It will be interesting if theFO put their actions behind what they have said. Somethings got to give soon.

[dolfos]

Hi Dolfos

 

I just wanted to post to offer you my support. I too have just had to ditch the business I have been running for 4 years and now am looking for a full time job. The banks shafted me too - Bank of Scotland and now HSBC.

 

I wish you all the very best with your claim. You are a very brave lady indeed and one to be greatly admired. It would appear to me from your IVA that perhaps you wouldnt have had to go down the IVA route had HSBC not been so greedy and slammed on these charges on.

 

Once you have the money I really do hope that you go all the way with HSBC to reclaim the money you have lost in addition to the charges ie selling your home, losing your business because of these charges. I also hope that you can claim damages for the pain and distress this has caused you. I will keep my eye on this thread and cant wait until you put up that you have won the case.

 

I think you are doing a great service to all us small business people who have lost their businesses because of the banks.

 

I wish you a very Merry Christmas and a very very prosperous New Year.

 

Kind regards

Gemspan

 

Thanks Gemspan,

I hope anyone feels with the help of this website they can oppose what the banks have been doing for so long. I am still amazed at how many people think by going after the money it is some how not our right and it's our fault and if they can be such fantastic controllers of their finances why can't everyone else.

This is so frustrating as these people although may not be rolling in it obviously have the luxury of being able to keep to certain budgets, and yes in an ideal world we all would be the same but these people need to wake up and realise life isn't like that and we have every right to challenge the banks. However I know as many other that things happen outside of our control that we can not help such as illness, unemployment, new arrivals to family, interest rate rises, car trouble, home repairs etc etc the list grows longer.

With regards to small business's out there the odds are always against you but people out there still have the drive and ambition to give it ago and that's great. The banks should encourage such investment into the economy not penalise and try to cash in on their vunerability often pushing the scales to far causing a business to fold, and they have a responsibility to small business's which along with the current account holders seem to have made them some fantastic profits. Just because they are giant corporations it's wrong that they feel they are right and I am only grateful this has all come to light.

All I would say to anyone nervous about doing this is don't be as they say 'size isn't important'(in most cases) :D

[bill-k]

Hear, hear, Dolfos.

[dolfos]

unbelieveable this one.

After complaining to ombundsman(squse spelling) and their call yesterday how suprised was I today to find waiting at home formy hubbie not one but two letters from HSBC dated 18thDec responding to both our letters seperately both by lovely Mr Cuff????

Can you guess how much they without predjudice of course offered us???????????

Go on have a real hard guess due to the fact that they are mindful of costs etc. They also stated this settlement if agreed to would be full and final as always and strictly confidential(oops:D )

532UKP.....

yes thats what I wrote and they wrote

532UKP out of 41K what do you think should I accept????

They have also quoted thesmall claims regime which completley miffed me. What the hell sod the confidentiallity bit this is a joke here is Mr cuffs full without prejudice letter in full:

 

I am writing in response to your letter dated 30th October 2006 (nice of them at last to acknowledge us) in which you claim a refund of the charges levied on your account between Febuary 2002 and June 2006.

 

HSBC is entirely confident that its charges are reasonable, are properly and fully disclosed in its terms and conditions and published price list and you must have been aware that you would incur such charges depending upon how you managed your financial affairs. HSBC is confident that it was entitled to apply these charges and that it would successfully resist your claim in the courts.

 

HSBC is, however mindful of the management time and irrecoverable legal costs associated with litigation in the small claims regime. For those commercial reasons alone, and without any admission of liability what soever, HSBC is prepared to make ex gratia payment to you in the sum of 532UKP. That payment is made in full and final settlement of your claims arising from thecharges applied to your accountin the period reffered to above and by accepting this payment you agree not to make any other claims relating to these charges. HSBC also reasonably requires your confirmation that you will treat this payment as confidential.(As they ask so nicely...NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

 

we have been advised that your accounts have been passed to a debt recovery agencey therefore any sums paid in settlement will be set off in reduction of your outstanding debt.

 

If you accept this proposal please sign and return the enclosed copy of this letter to us and we will arrange for a rebate to be credited to your account with the releveant recovery agencey.

 

Then there is the usual bit to sign and return.

 

Anyone got any good ideas for a letter. I called my husband immediately and oh did we laugh. At least the ombudsman got them to respond only two months late. As this is without predjudice I take it this can't be produced in court. Can we tell the ombudsman though and send them a copy of their feeble attempt to resolve our complaint.

 

I am amazed they even bothered. I guess court here we come after all:D

[sarahpp]

Unbelievable! I have been offered more than double that on a claim a fifth of the size ( I didn't take it of course).

 

There is a template letter in the library http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/25716-rejection-settlement-offer.html

 

I would just stick to that (K.I.S.S.) however tempting it is to have a good rant (and boy, have I been tempted in the past! I can only imagine what it must be like for you). Make sure you cross out any "full and final" bits on the form and replace with "partial settlement" and also cross out any reference to confidentiality.

 

I guess you always knew you would end up having to go to court but, they don't even appear to have made a token effort to enter into any meaningful dialogue with you.

[dolfos]

Unbelievable! I have been offered more than double that on a claim a fifth of the size ( I didn't take it of course).

 

There is a template letter in the library http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/25716-rejection-settlement-offer.html

 

I would just stick to that (K.I.S.S.) however tempting it is to have a good rant (and boy, have I been tempted in the past! I can only imagine what it must be like for you). Make sure you cross out any "full and final" bits on the form and replace with "partial settlement" and also cross out any reference to confidentiality.

 

I guess you always knew you would end up having to go to court but, they don't even appear to have made a token effort to enter into any meaningful dialogue with you.

 

Yeah no surprise there. Will as you advise keep it K.I.S.S even though I really could rant and rave etc as we all could it is a pathetic attempt and I wonder what the ombudsman will say. Probably not alot. Hope your ok glad your claim is progressing. Will post my kiss letter for some feedback

[dolfos]

Here is my K.I.S.S letter and I have omited any personal opinion. Should i mark without predjudice????

 

 

Dear Mr. Cuff

Thank you for your letter dated 18th December 2006.

I respectfully decline your offer of settlement and request, once again, that you return to me all charges imposed on this account, totaling £25, 257.05 in charges. I have applied interest at a rate of 20% AER which I have stated in all previous correspondence as I believe to be justified under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity and is based on the unauthorised business borrowing rate taken from your business debit rate (which applied to my account during 2002/2005). Again as stated in my last letter the rate is lower than that which I found to take into account earlier years 2002/2003. Therefore to date the total amount owed as of today’s date is now £39,372.12

I will accept the sum offered of £532 only as part settlement and on the clear understanding that I will pursue recovery of the remainder, with a County Court claim if necessary.

 

You have until 06/01/2006 to respond before Court action commences. You are reminded that there will be no extension to this timescale.

Any thoughts greatfully recieved. thanks in advance guys

[livelylad]

Here is my K.I.S.S letter and I have omited any personal opinion. Should i mark without predjudice????

 

 

 

Dear Mr. Cuff

 

Thank you for your letter dated 18th December 2006.

 

I respectfully decline your offer of settlement and request, once again, that you return to me all charges imposed on this account, totaling £25, 257.05 in charges. I have applied interest at a rate of 20% AER which I have stated in all previous correspondence as I believe to be justified under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity and is based on the unauthorised business borrowing rate taken from your business debit rate (which applied to my account during 2002/2005). Again as stated in my last letter the rate is lower than that which I found to take into account earlier years 2002/2003. Therefore to date the total amount owed as of today’s date is now £39,372.12

 

I will accept the sum offered of £532 only as part settlement and on the clear understanding that I will pursue recovery of the remainder, with a County Court claim if necessary.

 

You have until 06/01/2006 to respond before Court action commences. You are reminded that there will be no extension to this timescale.

 

 

Any thoughts greatfully recieved. thanks in advance guys

 

The letter is fine you don not need to mark it without prejudice.

[dolfos]

The letter is fine you don not need to mark it without prejudice.

 

thanks for this will send off for tomorrow.

[gemspan]

Go for it Dolfos!!!!!!! Best of luck. What about the bit where he says anything given will be paid towards your debt with recovery agency. Perhaps you should say something about that, or will that come later?

 

Annie

[bottomburp]

Go for it Dolfos!!!!!!! Best of luck. What about the bit where he says anything given will be paid towards your debt with recovery agency. Perhaps you should say something about that, or will that come later?

 

Annie

 

Dolfos, Since your husband is in an IVA then I think the "lovely Mr Cuff" will have to think again about paying any reclaimed charges directly to the collection agency. My understanding is that it should go into the "pot" and get divided up pro rata. How can these people in positions of power be allowed to get away with making these misleading comments without even getting a rap across the knuckles?

 

Good luck.

[sarahpp]

Here is my K.I.S.S letter and I have omited any personal opinion. Should i mark without predjudice????

 

 

 

Dear Mr. Cuff

 

Thank you for your letter dated 18th December 2006 which you sent in reply to my letter of 30th October 2006.

 

I respectfully decline your offer of settlement and request, once again, that you return to me all charges imposed on this account, totalling £25, 257.05. I have applied contractual interest at a rate of 20% AER which as I have stated in all previous correspondence ,I believe to be justified under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity.This is based on the unauthorised business borrowing rate taken from your business debit rate (which was applied to my account during 2002/2005). Again, as stated in my last letter, the rate is lower than that which I found to take into account earlier years 2002/2003. Therefore, the total amount owed as of today’s date is now £39,372.12.,

 

Your letter refers to the fact that you are making this offer based on a commercial decision related to the recovery of costs for small claims. However, you must be aware that the size of my claim means that it will not come under the jurisdiction of the small claims court and therefore, this line of reasoning lacks validity in my opinion.

 

I will accept the sum offered of £532 only as partial settlement and on the clear understanding that I will pursue recovery of the remainder, with a County Court claim if necessary. I have amended the acceptance form which you sent to me to reflect this fact.

 

You have until 06/01/2006 to respond before Court action commences. You are reminded that there will be no extension to this timescale.

 

 

Any thoughts greatfully recieved. thanks in advance guys

 

I have just tweaked it a bit Dolfos - hope you don't mind.

[bottomburp]

When you receive a "without prejudice" letter it means that you cannot use it as evidence in court UNLESS both sides agree that it can be used.

[bill-k]

When you receive a "without prejudice" letter it means that you cannot use it as evidence in court UNLESS both sides agree that it can be used.

FWIW - continuing in BB's vein - It has oft occurred to me that a "Without Prejudice" letter has a kind of "diplomatic immunity," but the reply to it does not !! Quote as much as you can (albeit loosely) from the original letter in your reply, and surely you can then render it as "Within Prejudice" !!

 

...can you not ??

[livelylad]

My tuppence

 

“Privileged” documents are those that a party is not obliged to disclose during the disclosure and inspection process of an arbitration or litigation action. “Privilege” normally attaches to the right of a single party, and, therefore, that party can waive that “Privilege” if it so wishes and can disclose the document in question.

“Without Prejudice” documents are also “Privileged” documents but these relate specifically to all negotiations genuinely aimed towards a settlement between the parties. Genuine “Without Prejudice” documents do not necessarily need to be marked “Without Prejudice” to retain their “Privileged” status (although it is always safest to mark the letter “Without Prejudice” in any event), but documents that are not genuine “Without Prejudice” documents but are (irrespective of that) marked “Without Prejudice” do not have “Privileged” status. Other than with the agreement of both parties, “Without Prejudice” documents cannot be disclosed even in respect of the consideration of costs.

“Without Prejudice Save as to Costs” documents are “Privileged” but these documents can be disclosed to an Arbitrator after he has made his decision on liability. A “Without Prejudice Save as to Costs” offer letter (otherwise known as a “Calderbank” offer), if set at the correct level, can provide cost protection for a Respondent within an Arbitration action.

[dolfos]

I have just tweaked it a bit Dolfos - hope you don't mind.

 

you know I never mind your tweaking

Thanks Sarah will make amendments to my copy.

Thankyou

x

[sarahpp]

FWIW - continuing in BB's vein - It has oft occurred to me that a "Without Prejudice" letter has a kind of "diplomatic immunity," but the reply to it does not !! Quote as much as you can (albeit loosely) from the original letter in your reply, and surely you can then render it as "Within Prejudice" !!

 

...can you not ??

 

 

Hi Bill

 

Nice to see your festive, simian features on this thread

 

I take your point but, do you think that there is anything of value which is worth mentioning in reply apart from the length of delay before a reply was received and the amount of the offer? It just seems to be a more or less standard templated reply to me.

[dolfos]

Dolfos, Since your husband is in an IVA then I think the "lovely Mr Cuff" will have to think again about paying any reclaimed charges directly to the collection agency. My understanding is that it should go into the "pot" and get divided up pro rata. How can these people in positions of power be allowed to get away with making these misleading comments without even getting a rap across the knuckles?

 

Good luck.

 

This was what we initially thought.

However when we aske for advice from our IVA Superviser he advised that it is very likely that HSBC will offset any monies on their own so called debt first. He pointed out that although this is not strictly to the terms of the IVA there was not alot you could do.

In some ways it is better to just get rid of HSBC from the IVA and put whatever is over the so called charge ridden debt they are off setting against in to the pot for all the creditors to then have their fair part in. It may also help us by getting rid of HSBC debt as if we want to settle early we can only make proposals to the creditors and they have to vote. If HSBC are still involved they will hold the deciding hand as they have 75% of the debt. Thus they would probably never agree to early resettlement just for the sure arrogance of themselves.

I completley see where you are coming from though as I was shocked at the way they can do this too. Initially I was told only the tax man could do this. However as we know now only too well the banks see themselves as a higher power who dictate to us mere people way way down their food chain!

 

The letter they have written looks like a template letter with the blank for amount filled in and the final paragraph applied as they have quoted small claims which there is no way this claim will fall even close to.

[sarahpp]

you know I never mind your tweaking

Thanks Sarah will make amendments to my copy.

Thankyou

x

 

I have tweaked a tiny bit more since I first posted Dolfos -sorry. Just to get in the letter the point that they delayed for so long before replying at all.

 

I will stop tweaking now and leave you to get on.

 

Sarah