Thanks guys a really big thankyou tp you all. We are hoping now to complete the IVA sooner and try and get back some kind of life again. This site has been amazing and all you guys need a medal!!!!! Thanks again this really would not have been possible without you all. xxx:D

hiya, i know it's been a while but didn't want tojeopardise anything. Anyway all seems ok now. HSBC paid up in full. In total we settled in the end for 21,498UKP!!!!!!! :-D However this has all been off set against their debt in the IVA as we knew from the beginnning. The good news though is our creditors have agreed to reduce the term in light of our success to three years instead of five years and the modification to this effect has now been agreed which is fantastic:) . I am really glad we have gone through all this worry and stress and I could not have done this without all the great support from everyone. This means so much to me and my family. The amount of 21K is being sent to the DCA who bought the debt from HSBC and in effect HSBC will be wiped out of the IVA. I would encourage any business account holder to get on and claim. No bank wants to go to court. Even for the amount we went after. It would be lovely to have had this money in our hands but then to us we knew this was extremely unlikely in our given situation and it was not about the money so much more about saying no to the banks who had a massive impact on getting us into our current financial stresses. I now know we are not by any means the only people effected and banks are not too big to be fought and just because of their size it shouldn't mean we all nod our heads and agree with what they say. For us this has been a real journey good and bad and the achievement of actually recouping this money even though not in a tangable form to us has been massive to us. There was lots of letter back and forth but I think if you all are prepared to take it as far as the courts with that preparation and time put in you will be succesful. This is not a get rich quick [problem]. Again a massive thankyou to all of you. This website and all you guys massive massive thanks is owed to you all THANKYOU xxxx If I can give advice or help please feel free to PM me.

Thanks guys for all your continued supprt. Things have been happening and I do have some news I hope to officially share with you guys soon. Please be patient with me I am still here! Anyone going after business bank charges do not back down. If you are strong enough to lock horns and you do not run before you can walk you can get some of that hard earned cash flow back.. I wish we had done this and knew how wrong the banks were while my husbands business still had a chance, then maybe we would have not been in our current situation but then I guess alot of things would have been difffrent and how often do we wish we had alitle hindsight. Anyway just wanted to say I'm still here and hopefully will be able to share more soon. Thanks again for all your support guys. Some interesting TV on Watchdog tonight didn't you thnk???

Don't panic all is well. Don't worry about partial claims get it all. It just means it may take a little longer thats all but now you will get your 8% interest on top and your court costs back. They will probably wait you out and hope you cave but there is no need you are completley in the right to get your charges which in my opinion have been unlawfully taken. DG just hope they can scare you off. The end result if you hang in will be the return of your money i am sure just take it easy kick back and relax a little don't let them scare you. It is worth sending them a copy of your spreadsheet as they may ask for it anyway to waste yet more time. So send it anyway it won't do any harm. Goodluck and keep your thread updated and you will get support when you need it hang in there

Sorry but re reading realised you are at LBA stage. If you are confident the charges are all reclaimable ie for returned DD's, cheques and overdraft excess then go ahead with the court claim. Also when you write to financial ombudsman tell them the bank have ignored your letters and not had the courtesey to respond leaving you with no other option but to proceed with court proceedings. This is what we had to do in order to invoke any response. The fact they are saying you can not reclaim unlawful charges is frankly a load of bull and they know it. With the amount that your friend is claiming they are probably not thinking you will seriously take this all the way but you must. Also you would over 15K go into multi track which is in your favour as it means full disclosure is mandatory and the bank would be forced to disclose their true costs. In my opinion none of them want to open this flood gate as they know they are unlawful charges. It may even be worth mentioning that you are aware of the multi track system however be prewarned if it did go to court and it is a BIG IF if your friend lost they would be liable for costs. Thebank may play on this factor but in my opinion the chances of you losing if you have done everything correctly are minimal.

Hi Lizzy, I can deffinately say in our case we certainly could claim HSBC did not tell us we couldn't although I have heard others say they have to them. The diffrence is though you are relying on the unfair contracts law under common law where by charges can not be penal in nature and the charges must be only the true cost to cover the banks costs of returning a DD standing order etc. We all know it does not cost 30 quid to return a DD etc and infact the charges make lots of profit for the banks. They certainly spare no victims in small business accounts. I would also recommend putting in a complaint with the financial ombudsman to try and push them into some more stronger action however do not rely on them doing much it will be down to you to do lots of letter writing and emailing etc. You have a really strong case the only word of warning would be the fact they may close your business account so be prepared for that. If I can help I will try PM if you lant anytime. there are lots of fantastic people on this site with lots of knowledge and advice. If your willing to dp the work it is all achieveable and you are really not alone. I earge any small business to go after their charges. GO FOR IT!!!

Hi mel, Well done on starting your claim. You can add on all charges you get upto filing the money claim. Just add on amount to your LBA letter and stick to your timeframe and your be fine. Goodluck x

EXCELLENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't think any other bank will want this same free advsertisment in the news. The people are deffinately winning! :D :D

sounds ok to me and more than fair. I know there are templates in the libary but I can't see anything wrong with your letter and agree all money including your court fee should be refunded. If they don't agree carry on with your claim. Don't stop your claim until they agree to settle full amount. Goodluck! (Not that you will need it I think it's more the bank that are wishing they had some luck instead.)

Thanks for all support guys as always you are all fantastic and keep things going many a time believe me I have sat with my husband and we have thought what's the point but then I read other peoples stories on here and I get some wondersfil advice and support and I know we are going to see this through just like i hope everyone else see's their claims through too. The article from daily mail was much appreciated on my local news last night and tonight(spotlight) they have been discussing the bank charges issue and it is really being driven home to everyone what the banks are doing and have been doing is wrong. It's about time the goverment did get involved. The article painted a clear picture of what is happening regarding bank charges being a large factor in debt spiralling. I also saw the CAGgot mentioned on spotlight tonight which is fantastic. No news from Mr Cuff regarding decline of 13K for full and final settlement but will keep posted. Claim will be filed next Friday regardless of weather I hear from him or not. I think we have been more than patient and any judge would see that incourt.

We sent letters starting in September they ignored everything until i filed a complaint with the financial ombudsman and then they have been writing lots of 'without predjudice lettters' It's bad they aren't even following their own complaints procedure in practice with these kind of complaints

Mr C is funny the way it appears he plucks his figures out of thin air and expects you to say it is fair. What is fair is to return the whole lot rather than push people to file MCOL(well done for that by the way. We will be filing ours next week) He also said the same to us about the interest that he felt it was inappropriate etc I imagine our letters were worded the same.

ok letter recieved back today fromMr cuff again without predjudice of course. New offer now of just under 13000UKP for full and final settlement. Again same sort of response they believe they will win in court etc and that they are mindful of the management time and irrecoverable legal costs it my incur etc. This is now their final response. We shall write back and accept this as part settlment but will proceed to court if neccessary to get the rest refunded as no breakdown of how charges are made up has been explained in this letter so this has still not be tackled As this is their final response still looks like court action is going to be forced by them

Hi Annie, We have spoken to the IP and it may not be in our interest for the money to go in the pot if we want to eave the door open to any possible early resettlement of the IVA later. I have explained more in my previous post. The banks know full well what they are doing and in our case they don't really lose either way. If they off set the money they are technically owed nothing. if they put the money in the pot they can cause us aggo if at any time we want to setlle earlier and just say NO.

I do agree with you. One point which has been pointed out to me by our IP is that in some ways if HSBC do offset it may infact be to our benefit. HSBC are the largest creditor. If the money goes in the pot and they all get a fair share as they would then HSBC would still be the largest creditor. If we wanted to try and make an early settlement offer to our creditors HSBC would being more than 30% of the overall debt would have the deciding hand and on principle of what we are doing they would refuse any deals offered. If we reduce HSBC's claim or eliminate it all together making them not the largest creditor by them off setting any reclaimed monies we will have more chance of if possible settling our IVA earlier. Although no such offer is in the pipeline we are still only in the first year of the IVA and do not want to close the option of early resettlement if the chance were to arise. This is why although in principle yes we should fight to ensure all creditors get their fair share it may not help us any. Even if HSBC do offset it means the creditors left are still going to get approx an extra 10p in the pound if not more than what they agreed to in the first place. I hope you understand my reasoning for not fighting HSBC if they do offset any monies.

ok, Here is what I have decided to do. As my last attempt to communicate with HSBC and to demonstrate to the court I am being anything but patient with HSBC and that I have truely exhausted all means possible to resolve this matter outside of court I have decided to omit the total charges element of my claim. Can you guys have a look at my final leter to dear Mr cuff and feel free to tweak. Dear Mr Cuff, Thank you for your letter dated 28th December regarding your view that I am refusing to co operate with your requests. I am sorry you see it this way as I feel it is yourselves not looking at my request for refunding of bank charges appropriately. It appears you are intent on stalling any such real consideration to my request and are using the ‘total charge’ issue to keep on preventing matters moving forward in appropriate means. I have been since September trying to resolve this matter via communications with yourselves which you chose to ignore fully until the 18th December after I had to resolve to forwarding my complaint to the financial ombudsman in order for a response from yourselves. Since this all correspondence has been in my opinion made in such a way as not to properly deal with the true matter at hand. I have asked now on several occasions that if the charges levied to my account are not unlawful that I am given a full breakdown as to how the charges are made up for charges of returned cheques, returned direct debits and standing orders. There has been no response on this matter and all communication has been based around your ‘total charges’ which I have included in my schedule of charges. These are only a small proportion of the charges under this heading I am questioning and yet this seems to be the only area you communicate to me about. For this reason I am now excluding the total charges from my schedule and again ask that you supply me with a written breakdown of how the other charges are made up. I stand my statement that the charges you have applied in relation to direct debit refusals and returned cheques etc are unlawful at common law and contrary to statue. I do not feel you have upto this point in any way entered into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter, for this reason this will be the last correspondence I will enter into with you as I feel by me retracting the ‘total charges’ element from the equation completely is more than reasonable of me and immediately eliminates you query regarding ‘total charges’ and will enable you to now give full consideration to the rest of my request to provide me with either a full breakdown of your charges to prove to me they are in fact lawful and that you charges are not penal in nature and really do reflect your actual costs. In view of my omitting the total charges element of charges levied the total I calculate you have taken is £21,498 in levies and further, I am still claiming interest at an amount of 20% AER as explained in previous correspondence I believe this to be fair and justified under the principle of mutality and reciprocity and it is based on your unauthorised business borrowing rate. There fore the total amount owed as of todays date is now £33,939.82. I request that the charges are refunded and enclose a breakdown of the charges. If you do not respond within 7 days I shall be left with no other option but to take my claim to the courts to decide on this matter I feel this line of communication is now exhausted and I wish this matter to be resolved. I feel four months has been more than enough time for yourselves as a large company and dedicated staff and departments, if you were going to try and genuinely consider this matter truly and appropriately to have done so. Yours faithfully I know some of you may say wait for info on total charges but I don't think HSBC are really gonna genuinely give a fair response to this one outside of court so I just want to eleminate their stalling tactics in one blow. The amount is still ridiculous and I do take on board the fact that although I don't have the bits of paper to confirm this that some of the total charge element may be made up of lawful charges and this may appear to be nit picking. Thanks for help on advance guys. Has anyone got Mr Cuffs direct email address so I can send this to him today? thanks x:)

Thanks for this you are right and funnily enough I did go via the insolvencey service website and although strictly speaking the money should go into the pot banks more often then none will off set regardless as they know as our IP has also told us that it would take too much hassle and money to take them to court to get it back. It would bedown to the IP to do this but as he acts for all the creditors as he now the supervisor of the IVA he would not be able to justify the costs or time to the other creditors. I agree this completley wrong and imoral but this is the banks we are speaking about. Apparently they know full well they shouldn't do it but also know theres not much any one will do it about it.

Hi guys Happy new year!! Just got back and have another snotty letter from dear Mr Cuff He is still rattling on about total charges and advises us to check the pre notification advice parts of each statement of my husbands business account. When I requested all information related to charges to his account all they sent was copy statements which did not include the pre notification advice with it. Surely it should have as Mr Cuff is stating total charges as stated on the statements is not suffice. He goed on to say staff will be happy to provide this info but a fee shall be payable. Am I right in thinking the fee still can not be any higher than 10UKP as it still relates to info on my husbands business account. Why was this not sent within the DPA request? They are again fishing for time in my opinion even without the so called total charge charges the amount comes to nearly 22K in returned cheques, DD's and unpaid SO any advice appreciated. Should I request this pre notification advice be resent and if so inclose a cheque for 10UKP or shall I go on with claim using the charges I am satisfied are truely unlawful and file the claim. All letters from HSBC are marked without and predjudice. Oh and by the way the lovely offer of 500UKP has now been rescinded??? (I am really upset about this as it is a real generous heart felt offer NOT!!!!!)

Hi photoman, I did list all the charges but with the business statements comes a bit of paper at the end stating total charges, the amount and interest applied so these charges are not broken down. In addition unpaid cheques and DD are applied seperately througout the statement. I am away at mo but have managed to log on briefly and I feel it is a dealy tactic. It is for the bank to break it down further if a court feels it is relevant as these are no diffrent from the total charges on my personal account as far as I can tell. I have not added the interest on or anything just used what they have given me. Will file claim next week had enough of them just messing around and telling us what to do even now. They wouldn´t have even responded to us if we hadn´t put a complaint into the FO who have done sweet FA too despite their statements in the press. The whole thing is just a game to the bank and I am fed up playing it their way sending off countless papers which they already have. I am satisfied I gave them a comprehensive enough breakdown in my letters stating days and dates and amounts and reason for charges. If a judge decides further information is required than that is fine. Even taking out the total charges the claim is over 20K without any interest applied. If anyones got any good ideas for my letter in response to theirs I would be grateful or do you think I should not even bother replying to their letter and go ahead and file the claim on my return. Thankyou guys for staying with me. This break has given me renewed optimism and I shall return on full boosted energy!!! I hope you all had a great christmas Happy New Year!!!!! xx

ok after sending refusal of full and final settlement got a rather snotty again without predjudice letter stating: Before we can properley consider your request you will appreciate that we must understand percisely to which overdraft charges you refer. If you wish to pursue this matter, please write to us again with a specific breakdown detailing amounts and dates of the charges in question whereupon we will be able to consider your request Please note for the purpose of this exercise Total charges is insufficent as it comprises a number of various charges components which must be split and itemised for the purpose of your claim?????I am sure you will find corrobarative commment to this effect in plentiful evidence You will find a detailed breakdown of your overdraft charges in the pre notification advice which was sent to you every time you recieved a current account statement. If you no longer hold these are staff will be happy to assist you although a fee will be payable. You will of courserequire this level of detail/information should you decide to take this matter further. The letter then concluded if within 8 weeks don't hear from us they assume issue resolved (yeah right) I don't know what they are going on about I sent them copies of the charges breakdown table twice. as far as total charges go they are not brokendown on the statements they just state total charges then interest andthe date they will be deducted so don't know what they are on about with total charges bit either. This all seems like further delay tactics. Any thoughts??? I will try and log on again but going away tomorrow till 2nd January so if no reply from me I'm not being rude just not about at mo. If I don't write prior to xmas happy xmas to everyone and a BIG thankyou xx

Thanks bill-k and sarah for all advice on this. Will get letter posted this morning:)

This was what we initially thought. However when we aske for advice from our IVA Superviser he advised that it is very likely that HSBC will offset any monies on their own so called debt first. He pointed out that although this is not strictly to the terms of the IVA there was not alot you could do. In some ways it is better to just get rid of HSBC from the IVA and put whatever is over the so called charge ridden debt they are off setting against in to the pot for all the creditors to then have their fair part in. It may also help us by getting rid of HSBC debt as if we want to settle early we can only make proposals to the creditors and they have to vote. If HSBC are still involved they will hold the deciding hand as they have 75% of the debt. Thus they would probably never agree to early resettlement just for the sure arrogance of themselves. I completley see where you are coming from though as I was shocked at the way they can do this too. Initially I was told only the tax man could do this. However as we know now only too well the banks see themselves as a higher power who dictate to us mere people way way down their food chain! The letter they have written looks like a template letter with the blank for amount filled in and the final paragraph applied as they have quoted small claims which there is no way this claim will fall even close to.

you know I never mind your tweaking Thanks Sarah will make amendments to my copy. Thankyou x

thanks for this will send off for tomorrow.

Here is my K.I.S.S letter and I have omited any personal opinion. Should i mark without predjudice???? Dear Mr. Cuff Thank you for your letter dated 18th December 2006. I respectfully decline your offer of settlement and request, once again, that you return to me all charges imposed on this account, totaling £25, 257.05 in charges. I have applied interest at a rate of 20% AER which I have stated in all previous correspondence as I believe to be justified under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity and is based on the unauthorised business borrowing rate taken from your business debit rate (which applied to my account during 2002/2005). Again as stated in my last letter the rate is lower than that which I found to take into account earlier years 2002/2003. Therefore to date the total amount owed as of today’s date is now £39,372.12 I will accept the sum offered of £532 only as part settlement and on the clear understanding that I will pursue recovery of the remainder, with a County Court claim if necessary. You have until 06/01/2006 to respond before Court action commences. You are reminded that there will be no extension to this timescale. Any thoughts greatfully recieved. thanks in advance guys