hushpuppy - ** SATISFACTORY CONCLUSION**

[gh2008]

can't wait for their interpretation and which agreement they send

 

the irredeemably flawed one that was signed

or

the 'correct' one that wasn't

[hushpuppy]

Should be really interesting, if you look at the refinancing 2nd one, they have paid themselves back 10k. it appears we paid back loan + ppi, all inclusive of 5 yrs interest, then they added 14% interest to that. Even had the cheek to say funds had been deposited in account.

[hushpuppy]

I am sooo confused with all of this, unfortunately I have found on bank statement that they did put in account £3+k, it went in and out paying back OH personal loan (the loan that it states on agreement that (a) paid back) that 6k actually paid back 3 month earlier loan on joint account. Still can't remember ever signing this. But worse to come today I received Allocation questionnaire, to be in by 4th Feb. didn't think it would be going so fast, I am right that I have to send back £200 because its over 5k? been reading up on how to do the AQN150 but can't get my head around documents to submit. be really grateful for any advice, really nervous now.

[letsgetitsorted]

hi hushpuppy,

 

just reading through your thread,

i have looked at the scans you have posted up, and a couple of pages still contain account numbers, 7 and 10

best to remove these then post up again,

 

and with the help from this site you will get through this.

[gh2008]

I am sooo confused with all of this

 

That's why you need the paperwork !!

 

Seriously now, you don't pay a penny for the AQ, the other side do.

 

I'll come back with some more info for the AQ soon.

How are the timescales for the CPR request? and the date for the AQ?

 

This is all absolutely standard so far and *totally* expected.

You are going to send in a killer AQ, and the court should look at it and agree that the bank needs to send in all the paperwork cos if they don't then you can't properly defend yourself and the court can't rule on it.

 

Because of your defence, do not send in the AQ without advice from here first, this is a really important stage.

 

deep breath and relax

[supasnooper]

I'd also advise that you read this thread by pt2537 as well -

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/241827-legal-action-how-start.html

[gh2008]

I'd also advise that you read this thread by pt2537 as well -

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/241827-legal-action-how-start.html

 

Yes, but don't get stressed about the stage you are at compared to what PT is advocating. You came here asap and it just compresses the timescales we have to work within somewhat, but it should all fit in.

 

As PT advises, you will send a letter in to the Court if they do not comply with CPR. You will also send in an AQ asking the court to use it's enormous powers in these cases to 'level the playing field'

 

Basically you are saying (from what I've read) If what they are claiming is correct and we genuinely owe the money then we will pay it back with affordable monthly payments. However if they have messed up and are trying to **&^^% us then they can go whistle.

 

The AQ stage is where the Judge first has a 'proper' look at what's going on and should try to make it fairer.

 

Has this been transferred to your local court as well now?

[gh2008]

It may also pay to have a look at some PPI claim threads. I haven't got a clue about that angle of it and will myself have a look and ask someone more experienced to pop their head in and offer any advice.

[hushpuppy]

Thank you, will repost documents, the AQ has to be in by 4thFeb and they have transfered it to a local court, sent CPR request by recorded delivery Monday + data request with £10. So should I reasonably expect a reply to CPR end of next week? which will leave me 4 days to send in AQ.

 

With PPi this seems to have disappeared with the second loan, (even 6k is paying wrong account on agreement) so hard to get my head round. your right gh2008 never tried to duck out of it, never missed a payment, wasn,t a lot but increased it now OH getting back on feet. (Instead of decreasing it going up).

 

not going to do anything without you guys advice.

Scan1.pdf

Scan2.pdf

Scan3.pdf

[gh2008]

the AQ has to be in by 4thFeb and they have transfered it to a local court, sent CPR request by recorded delivery Monday + data request with £10. So should I reasonably expect a reply to CPR end of next week? which will leave me 4 days to send in AQ.

that's fine - get(and keep) the receipt for the delivery (from the Royal Mail website) If there's no receipt there, ring them and they will email you a 'bulk signature'

 

With PPi this seems to have disappeared with the second loan

There may be the issue of reclaiming the PPI from the first loan.

 

Let us know when something turns up in the post. The idea being that, if you get no disclosure, your AQ will tell the Court that the Court will not be able to deal with the matter in a fair and timely way without the disclosure of the documents (which they should have disclosed already by way of the Pre-Action Conduct).

You will then tell the Court that you have done your best to get disclosure of the documents yourself but now you need the Court's help to order that disclosure.

They generally do order it - if you are lucky you get an 'unless' order i.e. if they don't deliver the Court will strike out the claim themselves.

 

Even if you do get disclosure, I also think on the AQ you may need to ask for the claim to be particularised properly and also then ask for permission to submit a properly particularised defence to answer it.

[hushpuppy]

Thanks gh2008 I am really dumb with all this, Not sure what particulised claim is, could you point me in the general direction to look this up,

Had a letter today from RBS don't know if this is standard or they are just being difficult. I thought with data if it had my name on it they had to send it (never had a problem giving overdrafts to OH without my consent)

What would they consider as standard documents and should I give them dates? (attatched letter). If I go into the bank should I get them to sign something as they can say I never went.

Scan5.pdf

[letsgetitsorted]

hi Hushpuppy,

just looked at the letter they sent you, what they are doing is fishing for a letter or something with your signature, which i would advise you dont send,

in response you could say "you have been happy to send statements and letter to me at my address so therefore i feel i need not sign the letter or send you my passport/driving license"

 

other may point you in the right direction on how to respond to their request.

 

hope that helps

[gh2008]

particularised basically means they should have included all the details of their claim within their POC or Particulars of claim.

 

They should have stated that it was a regulated agreement, they should have detailed your original breach, detailed the DN, and also should have actually detailed under which section of the act they now seek the repayment. The should also have attached the documents (or served them separately)

 

This would have given you the opportunity to fully understand what was going on.

 

Actually according to Pre-Action Protocols they should have done all of that before even issuing a claim against you !!!!!

 

re. the letter, yes, they re being unreasonable and obstructive. Maybe you could pop into you local branch (with your OH as well?) with the letter and confirm your ID ( do you have a debit card with a PIN? does your bank have the card readers on the counter to authorise transactions?)

 

Not sure how you signed the SAR but there are no laws on when you may change your signature and you can change your signature as often as you like......

 

There is this letter that's for when they play the same trick with a S78 request http://www.consumerforums.com/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/572-debt-letter-when-company-refuse-cca-due-to-no-signature-

If you wanted to use that it would need a fair bit of changing, but it's got a useful paragraph or two within it

 

A quote from the ICO

2 Do you have enough information to be sure of the requester’s identity?

Often you will have no reason to doubt a person’s identity. For example, if a person with whom you have regular contact sends a letter from their known address it may be safe to assume that they are who they say they are.

taken from http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documents/library/data_protection/practical_application/checklist_for_handling_requests_for_personal_information.pdf

 

I would also inform them that you do want *all* info they are required by law to provide you.

[gh2008]

have you got the confirmed delivery of the CPR request? was it 19th? have you had anything back from Incasso yet? I think they have until Tuesday.

 

Do the two agreements have different numbers - just trying to get my head round all this.

[gh2008]

Ok, this is what I can make out

 

Loan 1. joint loan taken out Sept '05 for £6.5kh + £1733 PPI

3 payments were made then paid off in full (£6541.33) by -

 

Loan 2. joint loan taken out in Jan '06 for £10k partly to pay off previous loan £6541.33 rest as cash (which as it happens paid off another personal loan for hp's OH)

 

They (RBS) are now taking action for recovery of the 2nd? loan.

 

Queries for hushpuppy.

 

1. Check account numbers

 

2. Was the 'bank charges reclaim' (£1740) you refer to actually a PPI reclaim as the figures match

 

3. Any Default Notice

 

--

 

IF the 2 loans have the same account numbers then I feel RBS have made a rather silly mistake.

 

--

 

IMO most importantly now, assuming they do not fully comply with the CPR31 request by Tuesday, we need to draft an application to the Court asking for them to order that the claimant re-plead and particularise their claim and properly file and serve the documentation according to CPR.

[hushpuppy]

Hi gh2008,

what you make out is correct.

There is an account number on a letter for the second loan. there is nothing on the first agreements to know what the account number is, The account number I presumed was the OH personal loan must be the 1st loans account number. the lack of clarity makes it very confusing to tie up.

Both loans have different application ref num, unfortunately.

 

They said the bank charges would come off account, which is about right for the figure we have on RBS statement, Incasso has more.

What happened to ppi I don't know if we had had the ppi we could have claimed it as we were defaulted in Sept for 2 months arrears, (thats when OH had accident). no chance of paying arrears, they defaulted on my account as well and I had authorised OD.

 

Confirm that they got CPR on 19th. I signed the letter I sent to them, but not in regular signature, could they not use the signatures they already have from old accounts?

I dont have any RBS card for identification, it was taken from me when I went to pay some money off the OD, girl behind the desk said I should not have it (very embaressed) as account was in default, wrote to them since asking how I should pay, no answer. I will go in the bank tomorrow with the letter, they should be able to fax a confimaton by me just showing ID, just not going to let them take a copy of anything, I will also follow it with a letter. Thanks so much for the help.

[gh2008]

I presume you've got another account away from the RBS group that you can use day to day?

 

I've asked for some help sorting the application so we'll get something out this week.

[hushpuppy]

Hi gh2008, yes opened another account away from them. Sending letter back today about signature with OH authorisation, I went into the RBS today and took their letter and a statement for them to fax through, confirming that they had sighted documentation that confirms I am who I am. It was quite amusing the teller got straight on the phone to them, and told me that they would not accept this, he had to take my documentation and photocopy it to send through, I said the letter and sighting was sufficient and I was not going to debate it. After them insisting a few more times he come off the phone and said he would fax it through, but he did not think they would accept it, tough. Shall I post the letter up or will it just add to the confusion.

Not expecting all account information as they kept bouncing my name on and off the joint account, even after I took my name off it officially. They put my name back on the account two month before DNs including me in OH overdraft as well.

[hushpuppy]

Had another letter from RBS saying they will send the data, not their practice to provide further copies of standard document, if I did want copy statments to say which period. From different person. have not heard from Incasso yet. Must admit getting really nervous about AQ.

[gh2008]

To put your mind at rest - more info about Allocation Questionnaires.

 

Link Financial County Court Summons - N150

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/131499-directions-n150-n149-allocation.html - Paul's guide to N149 & N150 AQ's

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/dca-legal-successes/159341-court-papers-received-what-6.html - N149 (with draft order for directions)

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/175566-upto-eyeballs-cl-finance.html- N150

Edited January 28, 2010 by gh2008

[hushpuppy]

Hi gh2008, Thanks for all the info, when should the AQ go in? Do I give Incasso posting time after the seven days.

[gh2008]

You need to show the judge that you've been more than reasonable and that the other side, despite its size wealth and power, have been unreasonable and unfair.

 

So yes, give them as much time as possible.

 

I was thinking of recommending you to investigate making an application for an 'unless' order, but with your defence in and as you are pretty much at the AQ deadline you might as well put in a killer AQ and hopefully get the judge to take a careful look at the claim.

 

Aim to have the AQ off on the 2nd if posting. Don't panic, have a look at the other ones and most importantly you need to get as clear in your head a 'timeline'

Get a timeline into your PC keep working on it as a 'living document' it will keep thikgs clearer for you but also make writing witness statements and things like that much easier.

 

At the end of the day we can help and advise, but you're the one that actually knows more about what went on and when

 

For the AQ stage we will need a 'history of the claim' I realise that because of the poor POC the details are not yet clear and that needs to be brought to the attention of the judge, together with the repayments you have made and the unreasonable behaviour byt the claimant.

 

BTW have you stopped repayments or not?

I would advise continuing them - in my experience, it adds a lot to your 'moral argument' (even if the creditor refuses them and returns them keep paying) also, at the end of the day should you lose will also be very persuasive for the judge to order for the payments to continue as they were.

[hushpuppy]

Hi gh2008, tried to tip your scales but it wouldn't have it, (you will have to enlighten me, why it wont).

I have been writing everything down to get my AQ, in order but I really needed them to come up with a copy of the signed second loan.

The RBS has refered to the 2nd loan as the 10k loan but with interest it was nearer 14k, the first loan was 10k with interest. I found some letters where I complained to FOS about not removing me from joint account, where they said its because I had signed two loans this was back in 06, I asked for a copy because I said I had not signed two, they sent me the first signed loan. it would mean theres 6k less to pay.

I have been through all the AQs and everything else but cant find anything similar.

I'm just having real trouble on how to put to the court that I admit owing and have and still are still paying, but could be paying for a loan we never signed for, I will get it sorted this weekend and get some advice from you guys if it sounds right. happy days.

[supasnooper]

Have you followed the advice given by pt in this thread ?

 

Legal Action: how to start off. IMPORTANT IF YOURE BEING SUED

 

If they haven't got the second agreement then how can they issue a claim ?

[gh2008]

@supa - unfortunately hushpuppy found CAG after issuing their own defence so there's a defence already in - on the front page - it does dispute the debt and amount owing so good enough to stop a strike out app IMHO.

We need to go back to the 'old way' of getting in a good AQ, but we can adapt the AQ draft order in line with more recent thinking.

 

and just to add to supa's advice - you won't admit to lawfully owing anything

 

3 golden rules to dealing with these claims

 

1) make them prove it

2) make them prove it

3) make them prove it

 

nuff said?