Dixons claiming goods are not faulty

[thestonefox]

Hi all,

 

I purchased a hotpoint washing machine from dixons on 2/11/2009 and it has developed a number of faults.

 

The washing machine was ending cycles early and i followed the troubleshooting guides in the hotpoint user manual and it told me to check the pump pre-chamber.

 

I followed the instructions for accessing the pump prechamber and the manual clearly states when you open the pre-chamber a trickle of water may come out.

 

When you open our prechamber, a flood of water comes out like a slow tap has been turned on. It probably produces at least 1/2 pint to a pint of water.

 

The Hotpoint engineer has said this is perfectly normal and the manual is wrong! And when I questioned him on how do we open the pre chamber without flooding the kitchen he said we need to pull the washing machine out and tilt it backwards to stop it leaking.

 

The user manual does not show these steps and this is also dangerous for someone who cannot lift the washing machine.

 

I've raised this issue with Dixons and their stance is, Hotpoint are saying the washing machine is not faulty and will not do anything about it.

 

Even thought the hotpoint engineers are contradicting the hotpoint user manual instructions.

 

Ive asked Dixons to prove the engineers outcome is correct by demonstrating the "feature" on another identical make/model of washing machine to prove their point and they have told me that it is impossible to prove this to me and I just have to take their word for it!

 

I'm taking this up with trading standards as Hotpoint and Dixons are clearly contradicting the written black & white manual that I was provided with the faulty washing machine.

 

Anyone have any advice on this?

[Bookworm]

Has the problem with the wash cycle itself been sorted?

 

If it's only a case of the troubleshooting issues being in contradiction with the manual, I don't think you would have a case for claiming that the machine is faulty, tbh.

 

If the issues with the cycles are still happening on the other hand, that is a different story.

[Ex DSG Man]

Hi - Wouldn't waste your time just yet with Dixons as they will only call up Merloni (Hotpoint / Indesit) and see what the engineers report says, which so far is No Fault Found.

 

Call up and get the engineer back out but explain he will need to see a full cycle to display the fault - The engineer should be able to see the fault or satisfy you it's doing what its meant to do. If its showing the fault and you have the engineers report to prove it (ideally what is the faulty part) , then go back and fight your case for a replacement due to its early failure.

 

Would also suggest you ask for a copy of his report of the service call for your records.

 

Good luck:roll:

[thestonefox]

The Hotpoint engineer has been out twice now.

 

The manual clearly states on page 12 that access to the pre chamber is achieved by turning the nob anti clock wise and I quote

 

"A little water may trickle out (this is perfectly normal)"

 

When you open the pre chamber nob, water floods out (about 2 and a half pints of water came out last time I ran my test which consists of running a wash cycle until the drum fills with water, cancel wash cycle, run pump out cycle twice, then open pre chamber hatch by following manual instructions).

 

Hotpoint claim this is normal and 1/2 a pint of water is normal. The engineer also said manual is wrong and he's been doing this for 30 years and the only way to access the pre chamber is to tilt the washing machine back 20 degrees to let the water flow to the back.

 

2 problems with that.

 

1. The manual does not state those steps are to be taken to access the pre chamber

 

2. How does someone with inadequate strength (old person or even my girlfriend) pull washing machine out and tilt it back to perform a "Care and Maintenance" task clearly stated in the manual as being a user troubleshooting task.

 

Hotpoint have later said not to tilt the washing machine back but to put a baking tray under the hole to catch the water. The engineer from hotpoint said you cannot get any sort of tray under there as it is too close to the ground and the only way to do it is to tilt it back.

 

The two Hotpoint reps have contracdicted each other and both have contradicted what is clearly stated in the manual.

 

A little water may trickle out does not equal 2 1/2 pints of water.

 

Dixons are not willing to address the issue because hotpoint are claiming there is no problem.

 

If there is no problem then why not demonstrate this feature on another identical make and model to me to prove I am wrong and also prove the manual is wrong.

[Ex DSG Man]

You've missed my point - Is the washer still ending before the cycle has finished?? If so it must be somewhere in the rinse, wash or spin part?? Please let me know - This is where any potential fault lies and is what will need sorted or verified if you are to argue you have been sold a faulty product.

 

As for the pre chamber they do let out a bit more than a trickle but this should only need removed once or twice a year for cleaning and thats about that.

 

Now not being an engineer but 2 pints of water being left by the sump may indicate its not emptying as it should, also a machine that doesnt finish its spin cycle (if thats where it stops) usually happens with an uneven load so the machinne will stop midway through the spin part and leave clothes wet and also a lot of water in the sump as it hasnt been pumped away????

 

Tell us a bit more of what happens.

Edited January 4, 2010 by Ex DSG Man

[Renzokuken]

If there is no problem then why not demonstrate this feature on another identical make and model to me to prove I am wrong and also prove the manual is wrong.

 

How do you propose they do this, open up a brand new, packaged item, meaning they'd have to sell it off as second hand. Or attach the display item to their none existant washing machine connections in the stores?

 

Unless you can get hotpoint to say there's a fault, or an independant engineer to state a fault, then their isn't much dixons can do. They require authorisation from the manufactorer to return goods. I would forget about the prechamber and concentrate on the machine not finishing it's cycle, as this is an actual fault.

[thestonefox]

The prechamber containing 2 pints of water is also in my opinion a fault as the pump should be removing this a majority of this water from the machine.

 

I've only ran the appliance once since the original F07 fault and so far the machine has not ended the cycle half way through. however, it didnt always end the cycles early before the F07 fault presented itself.

 

I will have to monitor this issue to ensure the original repair work has been successful (The engineer replaced a module inside the machine and also claimed this would fix the pre chamber water issue, which it didnt)

 

As for saying the pre chamber only needs removing once or twice a year for cleaning, then how am I supposed to do this if there is over 2 pints of water to catch before I can clean that chamber?

 

This is the whole reason why I want this sorted now, so in a years time when I prove the pre chamber is impossible to clean without flooding my kitchen, then Dixons will turn around and say its out of warranty.

 

The F07 fault that was also reported does not only prove a faulty product, If the pump is also faulty and not sufficently cleaning out the pre chamber of water for me to perform the care and maintenance outlined by the user manual then this also indicates a fault to me that will only get worse over time (my theory to that being if the pump is somewhat faulty now then it has a good chance of getting worse with more use).

 

 

 

As for how I propose they demonstrate the issue to me, I dont really care, its not up to me to figure that out. It is up to them to prove to me there is no fault with the washing machine if their view goes against the user guide provided to me by Hotpoint.

 

The user guide is bible not the hotpoint engineer's view. The user guide should be vetted to be correct before release for public consumption. If there is an error in the user guide then this is a failing of hotpoint and I have simply followed hotpoint written instructions.

[thestonefox]

If in fact over 2 pints of water is normal then the user manual is in violation of providing clear mis information.

[Ex DSG Man]

I can understand your frustration at your problem but your really not helping things - specifically.

 

1. You had a fault code and faulty module diagnosed / replaced but instead of pushing for a replacement machine you ACCEPTED a repair.

 

2. Since the repair you have only ran the machine once and it has worked fine (apart from what you believe is excess water in the prechamber) but what an engineer says is normal.

 

3. You believe the instruction manual "is bible not the hotpoint engineer's view" - I would disagree, they are more like a generic guide that usually cover a number of models in a particular range. I would expect each model to have its own unique characteristics.

 

How level is your machine?? - I dont mean right to left as this simply stops it jumping about if uneven. If the back to front angle is slightly forward it wouldn't take much for water to run forward. Why not just put the adjustable feet up a bit on each side.

[JonCris]

Has the problem with the wash cycle itself been sorted?

 

If it's only a case of the troubleshooting issues being in contradiction with the manual, I don't think you would have a case for claiming that the machine is faulty, tbh.

 

If the issues with the cycles are still happening on the other hand, that is a different story.

 

Of course the machine is faulty if it floods the kitchen each time you use it & the 'solution' is to "tip it over"

 

"Tip it over" I've never heard such nonsense but then it was a Dixons engineer

 

Don't muck about with these jokers send them an LBA giving them 14 days to respond failing which you'll issue proceedings

[Ex DSG Man]

Of course the machine is faulty if it floods the kitchen each time you use it & the 'solution' is to "tip it over"

 

"Tip it over" I've never heard such nonsense but then it was a Dixons engineer

 

Don't muck about with these jokers send them an LBA giving them 14 days to respond failing which you'll issue proceedings

 

JonCris did you read all the thread before posting? - The machine doesn't flood - it was not finishing its wash cycle, which has had a module replaced and has worked ok for the one wash it has had done since.

 

The excess water was in relation to the prechamber which you dont need to open 99% of the time.

 

As for 'Dixons engineer' - Its a washing machine so its the Hotpoint engineers that have been out twice -DSG engineers (Mastercare) as a rule of thumb are for the Brown goods and not White goods.

[Bookworm]

Of course the machine is faulty if it floods the kitchen each time you use it & the 'solution' is to "tip it over"

 

"Tip it over" I've never heard such nonsense but then it was a Dixons engineer

 

Don't muck about with these jokers send them an LBA giving them 14 days to respond failing which you'll issue proceedings

No dear, it pours water when it needs opening a part that doesn't normally need using except in case of troubleshooting, which is not the same thing at all. I had a Dyson which had a coin trap. If a blockage occurred, you had to empty the coin trap to get to the obstruction, and in so doing, you had to drain the coin trap part. That also released a fair amount of water and the solution was to put a tray underneath to catch the water and towels for the water which escaped. That was considered normal as part of the troubleshooting. If it had done that in the course of a wash cycle etc, I would have created merry hell. As part of the process to empty the coin trap, it was to be expected.

 

If the main problem has been solved and the machine functions properly in normal use, I stand by my opinion that any appliance which needs parts to be opened which are NOT meant to be opened during the course of their regular use is going to have some leakage and that it won't count as a fault. Same thing happens when you, I don't know, drain the sink, a dishwasher etc...

[JonCris]

If it NEEDS opening as part of it's normal cycle when it shouldn't it's either faulty or has an inherent design fault & therefore claimable as it's not fit for purpose

[thestonefox]

Just because something needs opening only 1% of the time does not mean something is not faulty!

 

If I had a car and my cigarette lighter was faulty, this would not stop me from driving the car but It would also stop me from using the cigarette lighter meaning the car was sold with a defect (and if this defect would not be repaired as it was not deemed a fault then would be in breach of what was originally advertised). Or lets say the cigarette lighter did work but didnt heat up enough to light a cigarette or if it wasnt a cigarette lighter but a power outlet socket and didnt provide enough power to power a device intended for it such as a mobile phone charger.

 

Yes accessing the pre-chamber is not required for a regular use of the washing machine, but IF AND WHEN i need to access it the thing floods my kitchen with 2 1/2 pints of water and the only recourse given to me by a qualified HOTPOINT ENGINEER is to pull the machine out and tilt it back to perform this task, then yes I think there is a problem.

 

Seriously why are you questioning this?

 

Its this simple......

 

 

Manual says do these steps.

 

Doing the steps in manual causes considerable flooding (2 1/2 pints of water flowing out and not a "little water may trickle out")

 

Hotpoint engineer says manual is wrong and provides an alternative solution which is both implausable and quite frankly dangerous to attempt!

 

If I was an old lady and I had believed this engineer and attempted to pull my washing machine out and tilt it back and it fell on me, how would Hotpoint react then?!

 

Seriously, think about it, if this was your mother and she was given this advice, would you not be absolutely livid?

 

The manual states it is a user performed task to check the pre chamber for small objects such as buttons or coins to see if the pump is blocked.

 

I can understand the frustration from Dixons as they are stuck between my rights and the need for an RMA from Hotpoint, but frankly I dont care about Dixons turmoil. As a consumer I am being let down.

 

I've spoken to trading standards and they have informed me to write a letter outlining the issue to dixons and to the credit card company and if it is not resolved within 14 days then Trading Standards will take it on as they also agree that Hotpoint's solution is not valid and completely contradicts the user manual.

[thestonefox]

No dear, it pours water when it needs opening a part that doesn't normally need using except in case of troubleshooting, which is not the same thing at all. I had a Dyson which had a coin trap. If a blockage occurred, you had to empty the coin trap to get to the obstruction, and in so doing, you had to drain the coin trap part. That also released a fair amount of water and the solution was to put a tray underneath to catch the water and towels for the water which escaped. That was considered normal as part of the troubleshooting. If it had done that in the course of a wash cycle etc, I would have created merry hell. As part of the process to empty the coin trap, it was to be expected.

 

If the main problem has been solved and the machine functions properly in normal use, I stand by my opinion that any appliance which needs parts to be opened which are NOT meant to be opened during the course of their regular use is going to have some leakage and that it won't count as a fault. Same thing happens when you, I don't know, drain the sink, a dishwasher etc...

 

 

But you're missing the point that the user manual clearly states that a little water may trickle out and does not mention the need to catch the water.

 

The hotpoint engineer even stated there is clearly no room under the appliance to place a tray to catch the water and the only way to access the pre chamber is to tilt the machine back.

 

Again, just because something is not affecting normal operation does not mean something is not faulty.

 

If My car user manual states I can plug a device into my cigarette lighter to provide power, but my cigarette lighter is faulty, this clearly doesnt stop me from using the car as intended as the car will still drive perfectly normal.

 

The main use of an item does not denote the only parts of the item that can be at fault.

 

For all you know, the pump could be faulty but just not presenting a greater fault at the moment and this could get worse over time and present a real problem outside of the warranty peroid.

 

The machine is not acting in accordance with the clear instructions within the user manual and is also not acting in accordance with Hotpoint recommendations that it is normal for 1/2 a pint of water may come out.

 

2 1/2 pints of water is not a little water.

 

If i drank 2 1/2 pints of beer I would not say I had just had a little drink.

[Ex DSG Man]

I've spoken to trading standards and they have informed me to write a letter outlining the issue to dixons and to the credit card company and if it is not resolved within 14 days then Trading Standards will take it on as they also agree that Hotpoint's solution is not valid and completely contradicts the user manual.

 

Best of luck - You might want to get a report from a qualified Indy to back up your claim as you can count on DSG throwing it straight back at you by saying a qualified engineer has been out twice and on each occassion NFF.

 

BTW - I have a Bosch and it only lets out a trickle although the Zanussi I had for 6 years and left in my property when I sold it still going strong did pretty much what yours did - floodgates, only opened it once and never again.

 

Be interested to hear how you get on

[thestonefox]

My girlfriend's mom and dad have a Hotpoint Aquarius and their user manual states a trickle of water too, when you open it, you only need to put a saucer underneath it to catch the water.

 

I think the issue here is more with Hotpoint than Dixons, I just wish Dixons would be a bit more on my side than on Hotpoint's side.

 

I'll keep people posted to the fun and frolicks of my case

[Ex DSG Man]

I think the issue here is more with Hotpoint than Dixons, I just wish Dixons would be a bit more on my side than on Hotpoint's side.

 

The reason Dixons are also none too helpful is that with White goods if they take them back (without a returns authorisation from the manufacturer)they pretty much bin them - total write off. If it was say a TV then after a refund / exchange their Mastercare division would fix the fault and the unit would get sold as a Fully Guaranteed Exchange - a cheaper price but not a total loss.

 

You are also fighting against Merloni who are as stubborn as hell at swapping machines. I have seen basic low end hotpoints worth £170 have hundreds of pounds of parts replaced, they dont seem to know what 'beyond economical repair is' or really give a toss about your consumer rights.

[JonCris]

Just because something needs opening only 1% of the time does not mean something is not faulty!

 

If I had a car and my cigarette lighter was faulty, this would not stop me from driving the car but It would also stop me from using the cigarette lighter meaning the car was sold with a defect (and if this defect would not be repaired as it was not deemed a fault then would be in breach of what was originally advertised). Or lets say the cigarette lighter did work but didnt heat up enough to light a cigarette or if it wasnt a cigarette lighter but a power outlet socket and didnt provide enough power to power a device intended for it such as a mobile phone charger.

 

Yes accessing the pre-chamber is not required for a regular use of the washing machine, but IF AND WHEN i need to access it the thing floods my kitchen with 2 1/2 pints of water and the only recourse given to me by a qualified HOTPOINT ENGINEER is to pull the machine out and tilt it back to perform this task, then yes I think there is a problem.

 

Seriously why are you questioning this?

 

Its this simple......

 

 

Manual says do these steps.

 

Doing the steps in manual causes considerable flooding (2 1/2 pints of water flowing out and not a "little water may trickle out")

 

Hotpoint engineer says manual is wrong and provides an alternative solution which is both implausable and quite frankly dangerous to attempt!

 

If I was an old lady and I had believed this engineer and attempted to pull my washing machine out and tilt it back and it fell on me, how would Hotpoint react then?!

 

Seriously, think about it, if this was your mother and she was given this advice, would you not be absolutely livid?

 

The manual states it is a user performed task to check the pre chamber for small objects such as buttons or coins to see if the pump is blocked.

 

I can understand the frustration from Dixons as they are stuck between my rights and the need for an RMA from Hotpoint, but frankly I dont care about Dixons turmoil. As a consumer I am being let down.

 

I've spoken to trading standards and they have informed me to write a letter outlining the issue to dixons and to the credit card company and if it is not resolved within 14 days then Trading Standards will take it on as they also agree that Hotpoint's solution is not valid and completely contradicts the user manual.

 

 

Quite:)

[Acropolis]

If the machine is completing its cycles fully and doing as it should be then there is no fault.

 

If there is more water than a little trickle, then at worst they are guilty of a litle understatement, but I wouldnt class it as been faulty.

 

Each machine is going to be slightly different, no 2 things can be truely identical, that is why there are tolerances built into things, it could be as has been suggested that the machine is not sitting completely level and that could be causing the problem.

 

From what I understand this is not something that needs to be done everytime the machine is used, in fact only when there is a problem, does the manual really need to tell you that if there is water leaking, that using something to catch it may be needed, use a towel or something, or some comon sense.

 

Form the sound of it, you are not happy with the machine, so why not try getting it changed for another model, i ge the impression that no matter how many engineers tell you there is nothing wrong you will not believe them.

 

I am not saying there isnt a fauly with your machine, I dont know enough about washing machines to make a call like that, but there are people that do and they are telling you there is nothing wrong.

 

If I were you, I would make sure everything is right at your end first, empty the chamber several times and see how much comes out on each occasion, if it is consistantly 2.5 pints then that is probably a little excessive, but if, as has been suggested, there was something that caused it to stop half way through a spin, uneven load or something, then there may well have been more water in there than there should have been.

 

How many times have you emptied it and there was this much water in there? Was it when there was a problem with the machine, before the module was replaced? if so then there could have been a fault, which was rectified and it was this causing there to be that much water in there.

[Conniff]

How do you know it's 2 1/2pints, you say you can't catch it in a tray so how did you measure this. I also think you are exagerating the problem.

[thestonefox]

I know it's over 2 pints because I empty the water in small doses into a dustpan and then empty that into pint glasses.

 

I've repeated the procedure countless times and its always the same.

 

Oh and technically, you could have to access the prechamber after every wash, it all depends on if any coins or buttons fall out during the wash.

 

The last hotpoint engineer had a fright when he opened it because he said "yeah I've seen this before, you just put a towel down its no problem"

 

He then proceeded to quickly unscrew the prechamber port hole and flooded my kitchen, he then replied "I think i'm going to need a few more towels"

 

after mopping my kitchen up he said that is normal.

 

I raised the issue with Hotpoint, and this is their latest stance....

 

"Your appliance does not have an accessible pre-chamber"

 

haha, they're now avoiding the problem by refusing to admit the part exists!

 

http://www.stonefox.net/indesit_letter.jpg

 

http://www.stonefox.net/hotpoint_user_manual.jpg

 

I've attached the letter from hotpoint/indesit and the user manual that clearly states how to access my mythical pre-chamber.