Take the campaign from unlawful to illegal?

[JonCris]

I hate to say this but by todays standard would they know a criminal matter if they saw one.

 

Anway I hope I'm wrong & that their bosses let them go for it.

[meagain]

If it makes a difference, despite the fact that we have potential breaches of the Theft Act, as well as the fact that I have told my bank to stop calling me yet they persist, and the rather rude tone of the call I received to close my account (was actually two calls - second was after I explicitly told the operator to sod off and never call me again!), meaning a case of harassment, I was told by the WPC at the station that it is "not a criminal matter". It's "official", harassment by telephone is apparently not a criminal matter anymore!

[tamadus]

If it makes a difference, despite the fact that we have potential breaches of the Theft Act, as well as the fact that I have told my bank to stop calling me yet they persist, and the rather rude tone of the call I received to close my account (was actually two calls - second was after I explicitly told the operator to sod off and never call me again!), meaning a case of harassment, I was told by the WPC at the station that it is "not a criminal matter". It's "official", harassment by telephone is apparently not a criminal matter anymore!

 

In regard to enforcement of the harassment phone calls I think you need to contact Trading Standards as the enforcement agency. We need to look at any amendments to the Wireless Telegraphy Act to find out if it's been downgraded from a criminal offence or not.

[Mistermind]

I believe it party B persecutes party A over issue C,

not because of issue C but to purely to get back at party A for any excuse,

e.g. retaliation over whistleblowing or trade union activities,

this constitutes victimisation as well as harassment.

[JonCris]

If it makes a difference, despite the fact that we have potential breaches of the Theft Act, as well as the fact that I have told my bank to stop calling me yet they persist, and the rather rude tone of the call I received to close my account (was actually two calls - second was after I explicitly told the operator to sod off and never call me again!), meaning a case of harassment, I was told by the WPC at the station that it is "not a criminal matter". It's "official", harassment by telephone is apparently not a criminal matter anymore!

 

Oh dear. You will note I predicted as much.

 

Why oh why do these police officers make statements about something of which they clearly know nothing.

 

I suggest a little more basic training in the law & a little less of lying around on beanbags at training college discussing diversity wouldn't go amiss.

[Zeusie67]

Has anybody with a Scottish perspective considered the common law offence of extortion. It's definition in Scotland allowed Wheel Clamping to be declared a criminal act several years ago (Black v Carmichael 1992 SLT 897), while it still remained legal in England and Wales.

 

I think there might be some scope for arguing that the Banks are making threats (either implied or express) in association with demands for payments.

 

Best opprtunity to put this into action might be to incur a charge, but then close the account before they can remove the funds from the account. When they threaten to take legal action unless you pay the outstanding unlawful charge, they are, it might be argued, committing a criminal act under Scots Law.

 

Anybody else got any views on this?

[Glenn UK]

Nor is it necessary to prove deceit; a fraud can be perpetrated by secrecy and without deception. The Law Commission in its Report on Conspiracy to Defraud (1994) acknowledged the scope of the offence as embracing both “obtaining by giving a false general impression” and “corruption not involving consideration”. More interestingly, the offence can comprise an agreement to do something that would not be a crime if committed by a single individual.

 

Taken from the Timesonline What would a reasonable and honest person make of this? - Law - Times Online

 

I was curious about the reprt mentioned has anyone seen it, I wondered it it had been discussed or not?

 

Glenn

[Guest Battleaxe]

Maybe we should contact David Omererod and and Tony Shaw and get their opinion of our debate regarding theft by the banks?

[Enron]

Decided to see what the CPS thought of this issue, and whether they would be willing to prosecute on the issue of bank charges. (can put up a scan if needs be)

 

Received what I believe to be a fairly standard response. However it does outline that the CPS will consider any investigations bought to them by the police.

 

So the whole issue of turning unlawful to illegal in relation to penalty charge cases is getting the police involved.

 

As such you are most likely looking at a big case to make these actions criminal.

[Zeusie67]

Has anybody with a Scottish perspective considered the common law offence of extortion. It's definition in Scotland allowed Wheel Clamping to be declared a criminal act several years ago (Black v Carmichael 1992 SLT 897), while it still remained legal in England and Wales.

 

I think there might be some scope for arguing that the Banks are making threats (either implied or express) in association with demands for payments.

 

Best opprtunity to put this into action might be to incur a charge, but then close the account before they can remove the funds from the account. When they threaten to take legal action unless you pay the outstanding unlawful charge, they are, it might be argued, committing a criminal act under Scots Law.

 

Anybody else got any views on this?

 

I've looked a little bit more into this issue. Here's an excerpt from Sir Gerald Gordon's "bible" on the Criminal Law in Scotland (3rd Ed. Vol II pp 250-251):

 

"When can money be lawfully demanded under threat? Lord Thomson indicated in Silverstein (v HMA 1949 JC 160) that to demand money under threat was criminal unless the threat used was regarded as legitimate. This is to some extent circular- threats are criminal unless they are legitimate- but it serves to emphasise that the use of threats to obtain money is generally criminal, and will be so regarded unless it can be shown that in the particular case it was legitimate. Some Scots judges have gone further than this and suggested that any threat by A that unless B pays him money he will act to B's detriment constitutes the crime of extortion [three cases are referenced here] This, however, goes too far, and it is neccessary to consider in what circumsctnes money can be legitimately demanded under threat. Generally speaking, one may say that if either the threat or demand is in itself illegitimate, there will extortion [emphasis added]; if both are legitimate in themselves the use of the threat to enforce the demand may not be criminal, provided that the threat and the demand are linked in a way recognised by law as appropriate....it is not extortion to threaten to sue for a due debt if it is not paid.

 

...

 

Legal Process. Legal Process is a recognised form of pressure, but there are circumstances in which a threat by A to sue B may amount to extortion. It is suggested that it is extortion for A to threaten to sue B for a non-existent debt unless B pays £x, whether or not A is entitled to £x from B [emphasis added]. A threat of legal process is legitimate only where the threatened action is directly related to a legitimate demand."

 

It appears that it is also important to establish that the Banks knew that their demands were extortionate.

In view of the fact that English registered Banking institutions are making demands for money against persons domiciled in Scotland, and Scottish registered Institutions are making threat from Scotland against individual in all parts of the UK, in respect of unlawful (or illegitimate) charges, I would argue that these action falls within the definition of the crime of extortion in Scotland, provided by Sir Gerald Gordon and are prosecutable as criminal acts under the Common Law.

 

In case you've never heard of him, here is a link to an article about Sir Gerald Gordon in today's Scotsman Newspaper:

 

Scotsman.com Living - Judge, sheriff, teacher, author: honouring Sir Gerald Gordon's lifetime achievement

 

All we need to do now is find a willing complainer and persuade the Lord Advocate in Scotland that the Banks are committing extortion, and that it is in the public interest to prosecute them.

[JonCris]

Good point Zeusie67

 

This is the reason why wheel clamp bandits don't operate in Scotland