*** WON - BC charges repaid with Compound Interest ***

[slick132]

Hi Fenris,

 

I've just reviewed your thread and assume that you sent the letter in post #19, which has prompted the response from Lowells about your S.10 Notice.

 

However, I can't see mention of you sending a formal CCA request. Have you, in fact, sent one to BC ?

[Fenris]

Hi Slick,

 

Yes, I did send that one to Lowells. Previously I sent an SAR to Barclaycard asking also that they send me a copy of my Agreement, which they have, as yet, not done.

 

It's getting a bit confusing now what with having to deal with both Barclaycard and Lowells.

[slick132]

Hi Fenris,

 

I'd not even bother replying to Lowells about the s.10 Notice refusal.

 

Wait to hear about the CCA request, and the SAR, for now.

[Fenris]

Hi Slick,

 

Got a big bundle of paperwork from Barclaycard today. Had a quick look through but can't see a copy of my Agreement. I'll have a proper look in a while and will update the thread when I know what's in it.

[Fenris]

Right, haven't been able to do much more on this for a couple of weeks. Had some problems with my car which needed sorting out which has put me right back. Anyway, I've heard diddly from Barclaycard since sending the second letter so it looks like I'm going to have to start some Court action in order to get the data I requested. This is such a pain in the backside! Why do these people make life so flamin' difficult?

 

And I still can't get my head round the restitution thing. Is there an excel spreadsheet or something I can use at all?

[slick132]

Hi Fenris,

 

There's been some success recently where users have received their credit agreement after complaining to the FOS about BC's failure to produce the document in response to a CCA request. You may prefer to try this before taking court action.

 

If you read the Interest Tutorial, there's an spreadsheet linked in there to use to calculate the interest.

 

Also, have you clicked on the restitution link in the post above to read about it.

[Fenris]

Hi Slick,

 

I'm already dealing with the FOS over my Barclays Bank charges, would there not be some kind of clash if I also got onto them about this problem?

 

I have read the interest tutorial and I have read the info in the link, but I'm really thick when it comes to maths (unlike Science which I'm really good at!) and I just can't seem to fit all the pieces together to get a picture of what I'm supposed to be doing! I've just found this: http://www.shweb.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/interestcalcs.xls on the "Why let your bank keep your money? Calculating your charges claim" thread which I've been tracking for a while, but I'm not sure if this is the correct spreadsheet to use?

 

As a test I typed in: Over Limit £30.00 21-Nov-2000 and it calculated: 3267 days £281.89 which looks wonderful, but it seems a bit high.

 

Incidentally, I was going through my corespondance with Barclaycard and I came across a letter I'd sent them saying I had rejected their offer of a refund of £256, but they credited it anyway. As I refused it does this now mean I can go right back to 2000 and claim all the charges with restitution? Grabbing at straws a bit I know, but it's worth asking!

 

Edit: For fits and giggles I filled out the whole form and, if I go back to the first charge way back in November 2000, and include all charges up to and including the last one in August 2007, my claim total is £2,928.12! Which is, interestingly, more or less the amount they were wanting off me. Talk about irony. That all assumes I can claim back that far and that this is the correct spreadsheet.

Edited November 3, 2009 by Fenris

[Still_surviving]

Fenris

 

With Slicks assistance I have just submitted my claim against BCard for 2 cards, and i can assure you the sort of numbers you are referring to are probably not excessive for a charge that goes back to 2000. In fact when i use my current card rate of 27.9% and the Compound Interest Calculator which is liked on this site Compound interest calculator I actually get a far higher number.

 

Its important to note that you must be prepared to fight them all the way to the court steps (and maybe inside) if you want to pursue this kind of claim. Im going down this road, but it may not be appropriate to everyone.

 

Best Wishes whatever you decide

[slick132]

Hi Fenris,

 

I see no reason why you shouldn't complain to the FOS about BC's failure to supply the agreement. It's an entirely separate issue to the Barclays bank charges.

 

That Int't figure looks bang on.

 

You can cetainly claim that far back but you'll have to incorporate s.32 Limitation Act 1980 in your POC. This deals with the statute of limitation which normally bars you from claiming back beyond 6 years.

 

You did right to reject their offer. The fact that they credited it to the a/c can be taken into account in final negotiations.

Edited November 4, 2009 by slick132
typo "that FAR back"

[Fenris]

Fenris

 

With Slicks assistance I have just submitted my claim against BCard for 2 cards, and i can assure you the sort of numbers you are referring to are probably not excessive for a charge that goes back to 2000. In fact when i use my current card rate of 27.9% and the Compound Interest Calculator which is liked on this site Compound interest calculator I actually get a far higher number.

 

Its important to note that you must be prepared to fight them all the way to the court steps (and maybe inside) if you want to pursue this kind of claim. Im going down this road, but it may not be appropriate to everyone.

 

Best Wishes whatever you decide

 

Thanks for your post Still_surviving. I have no problem fighting BC in the Courts; been there before, happy to go there again if it means there's the slightest possibility of getting this kind of money back.

 

Hi Fenris,

 

I see no reason why you shouldn't complain to the FOS about BC's failure to supply the agreement. It's an entirely separate issue to the Barclays bank charges.

 

That Int't figure looks bang on.

 

You can cetainly claim that for back but you'll have to incorporate s.32 Limitation Act 1980 in your POC. This deals with the statute of limitation which normally bars you from claiming back beyond 6 years.

 

You did right to reject their offer. The fact that they credited it to the a/c can be taken into account in final negotiations.

 

OK, thanks Slick. I'll be getting on to them again then. Also found reference to the IOC in another thread, so thought I'd pass on the info regarding Barclaycard's refusal to send my data to me. Might be a bit quicker than the FOS.

[Fenris]

Just a question about compound interest. Well, two actually:

 

When I put in the charge, should I also put in the APR at the time? I.e: charge of £25 on 01-01-2000, APR at time of charge 12.9%, charge of £30 on 01-01-06, APR at time of charge 18.9%.

 

The calculator Still_surviving linked to asks if I want to compound on a monthly/yearly basis. Should I select monthly as that's how Barclaycard charged me?

 

Sorry for more questions, but I want to make sure I get it right for the Court.

[Still_surviving]

I had similar questions when I was calculating my claim and settled on the following after discussions with slick & others further down the claim process than me...

 

a) use 12 periods for the compounding calculation

b) tick the box for 360 day calcs

c) use the current apr being charged on your card for cash advances - yes its likely to give higher results, but it will draw BCard to the negotiating table, if they want to disprove your claim.

 

I did have initial misgivings about © but as that is their current contractual apr with you, it is appropriate.

[Fenris]

Thanks Still_surviving.

 

Does C still apply even though the card's been withdrawn? I honestly wouldn't have a clue what the cash advance rate is now as it was withdrawn sometime in 2007!

[slick132]

Hi Fenris,

 

If you are claiming interest in restitution, it doesn't necessarily have to be the interest rate they applied to your a/c.

 

You're claiming this interest because BC have had YOUR money and will effectively have used it in the course of their business to lend out at commercial rates. You are claiming it to restore the balance - so they have that profit taken back from them.

 

To defend, they would have to disclose their accounting practices, which they won't do.

 

Keep reading up on this so you understand why you are claiming restitutionary interest.

[Fenris]

I thought I was claiming compund interest? I've forgone the restitutionry route because I simply don't understand it, hence taking the easier path!

[slick132]

Claiming compound interest at whatever rate will mean BC will refuse to refund and you'll have to file a court claim and deal with court bundle, etc.

[Fenris]

Sorry slick, but you've properly confused me now. I thought claiming back any interest would result in Court? Still_surviving has used the calculator he linked to in order to claim back monies owed plus compund interest. This seems the easiest route for me as I simply do not understand how interest in restitution works. It doesn't matter how often I read the related threads, I just don't get it. I've got enough going on without having to do advanced mathamatics! Which is why I'm opting for the compound interest. Don't Barclaycard have to show their accounts for this also?

 

If there's an easy explanation of how to work out interest in restitution, or a spreadsheet I could use that would aid me, I'm happy to try that, but there's no point doing it if I don't understand it. It'll just make a Court case impossible for me to fight. At least with compound interest I've got a good idea of how it's calculated and how it works.

 

Anyway, here's a funny thing: Barclaycard sent me a copy of my CCA! It is mine, I have signed it and it is my handwriting. Here's a link: http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/3958/barclaycardcca.jpg Obviously I've blanked out my personal details and I've deliberately left it large as it's hard enough to read the photocopy they sent me. From what I've read in other posts this looks like it's unenforcable. I can't see any T&C's on there at all, other than a short statement where the signature is saying, "This is a credit agreement regulated by the consumer credit act 1974. Sign it only if you want to be legally bound to it's terms." I can't remember off hand, as it was ten years back, but I'm willing to be I only got the aforementioned "terms" when I got the card.

[Still_surviving]

Fenris

 

You suffering the same confusion i did....its just a question of terminology

 

You want columns on a claim for

 

a) charge

b) compound interest at contractual rate

c) a+b

d) potential s.69 interest at contractual rate (this is same as b) - or you could go for just 8% simple as the courts will be more used to this. Your choice

 

The restitution element is (b). Barclaycard have inflated your balance over the years by charging compound interest on unlawful charges. Your claim is to reduce your account to the state it would be in prior to the charges & Interest.

 

Be aware though of the main condition regarding claiming for compound interest. It works best and most indisputedly when the balance owing on your card was always much higher than your aggregate claim. Else you may find it overstates the actual interest significantly

 

To my eyes that scanned doc has no T&Cs or references to any...interesting

[slick132]

Hi Fenris,

 

We're getting bogged down here with semantics.

 

Claiming back the charges alone will normally result in BC repaying the charges plus a flat 8% "bonus" on top.

 

Claim back the charges plus compound interest and BC will refuse to pay this, forcing you to file a court claim.

 

What you call this higher interest is not so important. It could be:-

 

Compound Interest

Contractual Interest

Interest in Restitution

 

What is importamnt is that you calculate it correctly and that you understand the basis on which you are claiming it.

 

The application form they have sent you does not constitute an enforceable credit agreemnt as it lacks any of the Prescribed Terms required by the CCA1974.

Edited November 14, 2009 by slick132
deleted advice given on previous page

[Fenris]

OK, thanks to both of you for the clarification. I'm going to use Still_surviving's formula above and send it off. If Barclaycard put up a fight (which we know they probably will) I'll at least have some idea of what I've done.

 

Regarding the CCA, now I know it's unenforcable should I contact Lowells and tell them this, or should I just wait for them to recontact me and then tell them to shove off? I've heard nothing from them for several weeks, so I can only assume they they have a copy of this agreement and know full well that there's nothing they can do to force me into paying the money I "owe".

 

Edit: I think I must be doing something wrong here. If I use the calculator Still_surviving linked to I get a total of £3448.91. But if I use the spreadsheet I downloaded from here I get £2669.85. Stranger still, if I use a spreadsheet I got by searching for Excel rules, I get £2769.57! As far as I can see I'm putting the same information in each calculator but I keep getting different results. Should I just go for the higher total and go from there? I'm assuming BC will try and knock it down anyway.

Edited November 24, 2009 by Fenris

[slick132]

Hi Fenris,

 

Just deal with Lowells as and when necessary, ie when they bother you again.

 

Do not think, for one second, that they give a hoot about whether they have the correct document before pursuing a debt.

 

I doubt they'd know the difference between a properly executed credit agreement, and a badly printed bus ticket.

 

Please see my PM to you.

[Still_surviving]

Hey Fenris

 

Just like to mention that what I posted re your claim, was the result of discussions with other people, more knowledgeable than I, from these forums. Wish i could claim it as my own original work

 

In any event, my initial claim letter was totally ignored - so Ive just sent a 14 day Letter Before Action plus updated claim details.

 

Following your case with interest as it obviously now mirrors my own

[Fenris]

Hi all again,

 

Well, I've still not gotten around to getting my money back from Barclaycard. I was going to do it after Xmas but I get very, very ill and it's taken me all this time to recover to the point where I'm ready for the fight!

 

Anyway, I ignored Lowells for as long as possible, but they recontacted me eventually! So I sent them a copy of the "Aplication form" and I quickly recieved a letter back saying they were passing the debt back to Barclaycard. That was a couple of months back and I've heard nothing since.

 

So now I'm back to square one with the reclaiming. But I have to ask, since this whole thing was ilegal, can I also claim back all the money I paid in interest? Not charges, just the usual interest that accumulates on a CC? I know it sounds really gready, but they forced me to pay £80/£90/£100, sometimes more, per month in repayments, when I was on JSA, getting less than £55 per week. Plus I couldn't actually use the CC as they'd stopped it so all I was paying off was interest that had built up upon interest that had built up on interest... You get the picture! Some months paying the monthly fee on the CC put me over my limit on the Bank Account and left me with no money at all. I worked it out that I'd paid them almost three grand just in interest and that's before I add in the charges and the interest on those.

 

As I say, it's a long shot, but if I'm entitled to claim it back I will.

 

Thanks in advance again!

[slick132]

Hi Fenris,

 

You can claim back the charges, plus interest.

 

You can only claim Statutory Int't if you file a claim for this at court. If BC repay voluntarily, they often pay out a flat 8% bonus on top but without reference to the date of each penalty charge.

 

If you claim interest in restitution at BC's contractual rate, they may refuse to refund and you'll then file a court claim for the charges and int't.

 

Read up on this in the Interest Tutorial linked in my signature.

 

You cannot reclaim the interest that they charge you on your a/c balance, except for those amounts that relate to the penalty charges.

[Fenris]

Hi Slick,

 

Yes, we'd already gone over that before, I just wanted to know if I could get back the interest I'd paid since the "contract" I signed wasn't legal. Answer seems to be no, so I'll forget that idea!

 

Anyway, I've read the tutorial and I've downloaded the advanced spreadsheet for England, but I'm finding this extremely confusing! (I was always rubbish as advanced maths at school and it's catching up with me now!) In coloumn I Amount Paid, what am I supposed to put? E.g, if I missed several payments, I assume I put 0.00? But if I was late with a payment do I put that in? E.g, if I paid £100 a couple of days after I got the Late Payment charge do I enter:

 

20/01/00 Late Payment Charge £15 (Coloums E, F, G, H) Amount Paid £100? Or should it still be 0.00?

 

I can't find a proper tutorial specifically for CC's only Bank Charges which isn't overly helpful.