2005 Volkswagen polo needs new engine!

[blinky123]

Well, I have spoken to the garage and now have the results of the compression test in my possession. They tested cylinders 1 2 and 3 wet and dry and the results are as follows:

 

DRY: (1) 230 (2) 180 (3) 127

WET: (1) 265 (2) 252 (3) 270

 

cylinder 3 is the one in question. I asked them about doing a leakage test but they assured me they were sure it is a sticking piston. They said I should write to Volkswagen first of all to see if there's anything they can do for me as this really shouldn't be happening in a well looked-after car that's only done 27k miles.

 

I'm not too hopeful about VW offering me anything as it is out of warranty by a year but everyone I have talked to has said it's worth a try? If I don't get an offer of help from them I will be forced to sell the car with £1500 knocked off its price as I just cant afford to fix this.

 

I guess now I'm just asking for advice on how to write my letter, what to put, or even if it's worth writing a letter at all.

 

Jess

[Conniff]

That is not such a dramatic difference that would call for engine renewal and certainly does not warrant replacing the engine. A set of Cord piston rings will probably see that back up.

 

I would firstly soak the pots through the plug holes with some Wynns over night as the cheapest thing to do and then take another reading.

[heliosuk]

Good news blinky. I was hoping for a conniff opinion before I replied. It seems your garage is has now justified the diagnosis. The wet readings are good but the dry indicate a possible issue starting to occur with number 2 as well.

 

As conniff says on this info it would be feasible to re-ring. This involves removing the head and sump and withdrawing the pistons. They would then clean out the grooves and fit new rings, hone the cylinder bores and re-assemble.

 

The idea about trying to free off the rings with a fluid can work but seldom does.

 

However there are some problems here. I'm not too up on this particular engine, so for a start we need to know if rings are available and is it possible to hone as some cylinders won't allow it.

 

I think now that we know the route cause with some degree of accuracy it is time to look at the economics.

 

It's appreciated that you can't afford the quoted £1500 but it could be money well spent if you could get it. And this is the paradox. To sell, less the 1500, would you get a car as good and loved as the one you have. Spend the 1500 and the car in theory should take you to 150,000 miles plus if you look after as you obviously do so will more than pay for itself. The labour and parts involved in a re-ring if possible, might outweigh the benefits of of a short engine block change though this is a neglible cost. But then the guarantee on a re-ring will be far, far less than a replacement short block and if the re-ring did not work then you again double up on consumable parts such as head, sump gaskets and cam belts etc, etc.

 

Then we have the VW issue.

 

I can help you out on this via a pm as some of the details should not be public knowledge.

[Conniff]

What sort of driving do you do blinky, long trips or just town commuting?

 

I'm just wondering how the rings have become gummed at that mileage.

[heliosuk]

I get the impression it's only town Conniff which might go towards some explanation but then I'd have thought the exhaust would have fallen off before something like this. The only thing I can think of is that at some point in its life it spent some time stood still for quite a period of time. But then running it you'd have thought the temperatures would have burnt it off.

 

Hate to say this, but do you think this might be a case of "a dealer decoke" ie a dammed good blast up a motor way. Understand the car is in an area where the opportunity to do this is very unlikely. I've seen this before with a vehicle rough running.A good long high speed run can do wonders!!! I have to do this with my mothers car on a regular basis to just get the thing to idle properly.

[Conniff]

I thought of the good run, but if there is a lot of varnish and gum in the ring grooves, it can turn to carbon which is why I would try an overnight soak and then find a good motorway to do a run.

 

This sort of thing makes me want to fling open the workshop doors and say bring it here. I'm sure we must be able to sort this out without too much money being spent.

 

If it's a ring job then bottom shells should be changed as well.

 

It also seems to be lacking in servicing, or at least oil changes, as it's only had two (if I read correctly) but is almost five years old.

[blinky123]

Hi guys,

 

Thank you so much for your replies. Conniff, I would also like to know why it's become gummed at this low mileage! I do only drive it round the town, occasionally it gets a motor-way run, and it's funny you should mention this because a lot of people I have spoken to have told me I should blast it down the motor-way and I'd probably see an improvement, however when I took it to VW they said if I have to drive it at all to make sure I do not drive it at high speeds because I will burn out the catalytic converter.

 

Is it feasible to think the car supermarket I bought it from sold it to me with a problem even though I bought it in April 2008 and only just encountered problems in the last couple of months? Since I bought it it has had problems with an error message coming up saying the fuel consumption is too lean or something like that and I had to have the lambada replaced about 3 months after buying it.

 

It's already had a sort of engine treatment to unstick the rings and it improved things slightly for a day or two but now it's back to what it was.

 

OK, I've just got the service schedule out and it has had a full service at 7k miles, a full service at 16K (both by previous owner) a mini service at 17K, and another full service at 22K.

 

I totally appreciate what you are saying heliosuk, if it can be guaranteed that the work will fix it completely I would pay it but everything in this life is a gamble and I feel like I might just have been unlucky and bought a complete pup of a car because the central locking and electric window on the passenger side of the car has also just gone in the last couple of weeks! How unlucky am I? What I'm saying is I have lost complete faith in this car!

 

I would really appreciate your help via pm on this helios as you have offered, feel free to pm me with any info you have that might be helpful to me.

 

I will await your replies before I sit down and start writing anything!

 

Jess

[Conniff]

Hi blinky. It's not a quick blast down the motorway that is required, it a relatively high speed (revs) run that is of sufficient distance that it will get the whole engine hot. The temp guage is only showing the temperature of the water in the head and because of the thermostat, the guage will show a normal operating temp very quickly, but the thermostat will open and close a lot of time before the whole of the coolant has reached that temp and the radiator starts to do it's job.

The oil is also part of the cooling system as well as a lubricating system and the oil can take some time to reach a high enough temp so the whole engine can be running cool for quite some time and on a town run, will rarely reach a good operating temperature even if the radiator fan comes on at traffic lights.

 

Modern oils have a lot of chemicals in them doing different things, some to wash the inside of the engine and others to hold that dirt in suspension so it don't clog things up which is why it is folly to use cheap oils in an engine as they don't have the technology built into them to give them an extended life and do a good job.

 

You might see all brands of petrol tanker going into a fuel storage depot and topping up with what looks like the same petrol. In general it is the same raw petrol, but different brands add there own chemicals so although supermarket fuel is cheaper, it's usually that way because it is lacking in chemical sophistication some of which are designed to also remove the varnish that burning petrol makes.

So when you see one brand bragging about it's petrol being better than the others, it is usually true.

 

Your car has had the equivalent of a service at more than 1 year apart. Services are not just about mileage, but also about time as well. Also, cheaper servicing usually mean cheaper parts of which the oil is the easiest to save money on.

 

I wasn't meaning add an additive to the oil, but to remove the plugs and squirt enough into the cyclinders that it will saturate the piston tops and slowly drain down between the piston and walls overnight and hopefully soften the gum holding the rings into the grooves.

As helio says, this don't always work, but is a cheap first attempt.

 

I would think it very unlikely that the seller was aware that a problem was just around the corner. The less cyclinder you have, the more exagerated this type of problem shows itself and you can bet there are a lot of V8 engines with the same problem, but because of the number of cyclinders, it don't show up in normal driving and the owner may never become aware of it.

[heliosuk]

Blinky,

You need to change your settings so that I can send pm's to you . If a filter, then allow Conniff as well as his opinion is valued. I have some info for you.

 

I can't pm on your settings.

[blinky123]

Settings changed. I think I should be able to receive now. Thanks.

[tiaposy]

Are you sure the garage have used the correct oil in the car? I think it should be fully synthetic on your car. If they have used the incorrect oil, then VW cust care won't be of any help I'm afraid.

[heliosuk]

If they have used the incorrect oil, then VW cust care won't be of any help I'm afraid.

 

Actually, if you read the thread, this is not exactly true. Provided the oil is approved to SAE regs as recognised by VW then there should be no problem. The fully synthetic is a "recommended" oil but the range of viscosities and types etc is immense and this depends on the market where it is sold. The oils recommended ensure that the oil degredation over time and use will still lubricate the tighter engineering tolerances used. Given the engine oil has on average been changed every 6750 miles with the critical initial period from new ( though I would argue this is not necessary any longer) then even if it had been run on Castol GTX for older engines, the failure should not have happened.

 

The problem here, is that there is a design fault in the engine oil supply the further away from the pump it has to travel, is a known issue on this 3 cylinder engine and is known throughout the VW group.

 

It's a bit like BMW saying that the habitual failure of their BMW 6 and V8 cylinder engines was down to the sulphur in the fuel, predominantly from Venuzuela crude oil in the UK and USA, when in reality the root cause was the nikasil bore coating not being correct.

 

VW will be daft trying to back out of this one but no doubt they will try. Hopefully they will be sensible enough to look after the complainent in a manner befitting a recognised responsible manufacturer and restore not just her faith but everyone elses in what actually is a superb little car known for its build quality, reliability and longevity.

[blinky123]

Just an update on this - heliosuk has been a great help behind the scenes and I have sent a polite letter to VW asking them to consider all the points raised above and to offer a solution to my problem. On the advice of heliosuk I did not go in with all guns blazing in the first instance BUT I am prepared for the fact that they are going to tell me to stuff it initially!

 

I will keep this thread updated when I hear more...

[blinky123]

Just a quick update in case anybody is interested - I have received a reply from VW to my initial complaint... It's fairly positive as they have not dismissed me out of hand, they are willing to take a look at the car and I am going to book the car into a dealership near me so that they can verify my complaint and go from there...

[Conniff]

Of course we are interested. I'm pleased that it is looking a bit more promising.

[blinky123]

Update!

 

To be honest I can't really explain what the problem is with the car although Horsham VW have been very good so far, apparently it is a problem with a pressure leak in the exhaust valve? (I'm sure heliosuk will be able to elaborate here...) And to verify this they will need to remove bits from the engine and inspect them which will cost quite a bit! And apparently it is a common problem with my model car but with the 1.4 model rather than the 1.2 but Horsham's gut feeling is that it is the same problem. I have spoken to VW customer care re my letter and neither person who I needed to speak to was there so I have left my number and they are going to liaise with VW Horsham and get back to me. I haven't given up hope just yet as apparently there is a warranty with VW on this particular problem but it has to be VW service history in total and I have had 1 service at my reputable independent garage so it is a case of goodwill on the part of VW customer care. I am aware however that the full VW service history thing is unenforcable though so that gives me more hope. I'm sure heliosuk will be able to explain what's wrong with the car better than me!

 

Jess

[Conniff]

I see one little problem with their diagnosis of an exhaust valve leak and that is:

DRY: (1) 230 (2) 180 (3) 127

WET: (1) 265 (2) 252 (3) 270

 

You don't get an increase in pressure on a wet test if it is the valves, that is the whole point in doing a dry and wet test so you know if it is piston rings or valves.

That doesn't mean there is nothing wrong with the valve seats, but it is not what the pressure test is saying.

 

Either way, it throws out the window the 'needs a new engine' bit. Both of these problems are repairable the easiest being the valves.

Edited October 21, 2009 by Conniff

[heliosuk]

I spoke with Horsham VW today and have to say they were extreamly helpful. In fact it came as a very, very pleasent surprise. It's not often that we read this on the forum and the attitude of this main dealer is another one to be commended. The guys technical knowledge and engineering ability was also quite impressive. On balance they are very supportive of Blinkys claim but obviously are tied by manufacturers guide lines.

 

The upshot is that they have listened to what blinky has had to say and instead of wasting time went straight to a compression test. This showed no 1 as being fine, no 2 within acceptable limits and no 3 on the floor. So carried out the leakage test. No 3 was pretty conclusive to the extent they could feel the leak at the tail pipe (!!) and through the inlet. No 2 not conclusive and no 1 no problem. There was no evidence to support the ring failure theory at this moment in time. Based on their experience they believe the issue is similar if not the same as on the 1.4 16V version which did have issues and a head rebuild/replacement policy is/was in force. On this engine they had premature valve seat wear and the failure mode on Blinkys car is very similar. As they could also hear the leak in the inlet manifold they have suggested a worse case scenario that there is possible crack in the head between the valves though admitted this is highly unlikely. A warning factor though was pointed that if the head was taken off and confirmed to be the fault then they would replace all three sets of valves and seats. The governing factor is that the tolerances on the height of valve to top of the head is only 4 thou and over that means a replacement head. Apparently the official line is poor fuel quality which was pointed out as being a lame excuse as all fuel sold in the EU has to meet a minimum standard which again was unofficially agreed.

 

Horsham were very specific on the repair times allowed as well and had gone into great detail as to the various scenarios. They then on line looked at the goodwill possibilities which came back with a 100% parts contribution. However it needs to have a 100% VW history. I countered this with block exemption rules which was agreed but then it only applies when the vehicle is within warranty period and goodwill is what it is. This somehow seems to defeat the spirit of block exemption. Manufacturers were quick to criticise and object to it but if they standby this goodwill requirement it actually works in their favour.

 

At the end of the day it's going to be VW's call, the dealer is supportive.

 

If I had to be critical of Horsham, then they should have contacted VW customer service on Blinkys behalf and discussed the case coming back with VW's opinion and offer or no offer rather than putting the ball in Blinkys court again.

 

Consequently Blinky is batting it back to VW to take up with Horsham. A missed opportunity by Horsham perhaps especially if VW come up trumps which we hope they will do.

 

Just to end, for info the actual oil control ring problem on this series of engines was burning oil by the bucket load or rather sump!!!

[Conniff]

So where did the above compression results come from if it is a valve?

 

So what is the problem - soft seats/burnt or tappet clearance?

 

Are the seats cut into the head or inserts?

Edited October 21, 2009 by Conniff

[heliosuk]

Cut apparently Conniff and they believe it's the seats. Apparently on the 16V versions they had been burning. It does seem unusual though as most VW engines I have come across ( predominantly the early ones and the current W12 and W16) have steel inserts. If they are steel inserts then I don't think the 4 thou tolerance would apply as you'd just whip them out and stick new ones in, no need to change the head. Another case of cost cutting gone wrong perhaps?

[Conniff]

Oh for the days of 'a squirt of Redex and 5 gallons'.

[heliosuk]

Very true, very true and I remember them well!!

 

I do find it interesting though this one and wait with glee for VW's reponse. We need to find a sympathetic cagger with knowledge of this engine though we are making good process. It's this dammed excuse they use about poor fuel quality that gets me. BMW tried this when they had huge issues with the 6 cyl and V8's with compression loss and blamed it on high sulphur fuel content predominantly with Venuzlaen crude oil and the reality was that the block suppliers had a problem with the process in coating the bores with Nikasil.

 

I think we will get a good result though as we are only 1/3 rd of the way through our arsenal at the moment and so far the results have been positive. One concern I forgot to mention to them was had they checked the chassis cut off date to positivly rule out rings. I'll do that when Blinky updates me next.

 

Forgot to mention also that Horsham very kindly fixed the CDLS for nought, traced to the wrong rated fuse being put in which could have happened any time and noticed a stop light out so replaced. All stuff they could have charged for but felt they should do it and not charge. Another plus point for Horsham.

[blinky123]

Still waiting on either Horsham VW or VW UK customer care to call me - I've called VW UK twice now and still waiting...

[blinky123]

OK further update - I've made it clear to VW UK how disappointed I am with what has happened her and the lady I spoke to has agreed with my case and feels I make extremely valid points and if she were in my position she would feel just as disappointed. On that note she is going away to speak to her manager to see what they can do for me and I shall hear back tomorrow afternoon. Unfortunately that fact that I have had 1 service at a non VW dealer and did not buy it from a recognized VW retailer will go against me. I do however feel that neither of these points make it any more likely that I should have a problem with my vehicle and find it very unfair?

 

Any thoughts?

[heliosuk]

Just uncovering the laser guided missiles for you Blinkey.