Advice needed on Argos card agents Moorcroft.

[count orlok]

I've answered Moorcroft, told them not to visit. That said I think I was more than generous as regards the missing payments (which incidentally puts the account into dispute), I have told them there is nothing more I can do as I have checked with my bank that the payments have been made, but I did tell them I would be happy to supply the police with any details they need to find the missing money

[count orlok]

Got an answer from the ~ Pre-Court Division they have admitted that Argos have been getting my payments.

 

They refer me to their letter saying I should pay them because they are responsible for the admin of the alleged debt. They add that I should contact them immediately with an offer of payment.

 

They say that failure to respond to their request may result in them recommending to Argos that they start proceedings against me without further notice.

 

They finish the letter by stating that any payment must be attached to the letter and made payable to them.

 

So in summery; I am paying the owner of the alleged debt, but if I do not stop paying them and pay Moorcroft, they will suggest Argos take me to court; for what, paying them despite them not telling me not to?

 

Perhaps I should write a letter to Moorcroft asking them to stop paying, say their phone bill, and pay it to me instead, on my say-so. After all Argos have not contacted me to say stop paying or pay Moorcroft, and nothing Moorcroft have sent me amounts to more than a hollow threat.

 

Also it seems that letters to DCAs are delivered by the Post Office, despite their failure to answer most and claim not to have received them, because they have it seems answered at least some of the points raised therein, even if as it appears they do not have any employee that is intelligent enough to fully understand it

[count orlok]

Letter done and being posted later today.

 

Been thinking about this one, as I see it Moorcroft can't win here; the debt is owned by Argos whom I am making token payments. Argos it seems have washed their hands of the matter and are relying on Moorcroft to collect the debt, Moorcroft will only get paid if I pay them instead of Argos, I would not even consider paying a third party unless the OC wrote to me asking me to stop paying them and they are not likely to do that!

 

If Moorcroft followed through with their threats and Argos took me to court, the court would order I pay Argos not Moorcroft. So they not likely to do that either, The way I see it Moorcroft will do nothing but send stupid letters from their pre-school divison and keep making threats they have no intention of following through on.

 

If it did go to court I guess i could find the money to pay off the amount in the default so aviod a CCJ, either that or carry on paying untill the default amount is paid them wait a few more years for it to go off my file.

 

Either way its lose lose for Moorcroft as I see it. Obviously things would be different if Moorcroft purched the debt and had a Deed of Assignment, then they would get the 38 quid or token payments for the next few years.

[count orlok]

Got another letter from Moorcroft, although this one does not appear to be a template or computer generated and is not from one of their ~Pre- divisions, It does not answer any of my questions or address any of my queries. So all in all nothing and I will have to tell them so

[count orlok]

Got another 3 letters from the ~Pre-Court Divison; 2 SHOUTING LETTERS one confirming they are agent's for Argos, both demanding I phone them with an offer of payment, and a NOTICE OF INTENDED LITIGATION. I've already had these computer generated letters on at least one occasion and answered them. Still heard nothing from Argos.

 

Should I even bother replying to these idiots?

 

AFAIK they can't take me to court, only the creditor can, and I'm paying them. As I see it Moorcroft's beef is that I won't pay them and continue to pay Argos (they won't get paid that way).

[count orlok]

Just got another letter from the ~Pre-Court Division, this one is "as requested" a statement of account (this was requested 6 months ago as part of the CCA request, which could be claimed Argos had fulfilled). This one shows that Moorcroft took on a debt of over £500 in May, and now it stands at over £600 due to the addition of £48 of administration fees, and £24 of debt adjustment fees.

 

AFAIK these fees are illegal, and to be honest there is little point in making even a token payment if they are going to put monthly charges on that are increasing the debt at over ten times what I am paying off.

 

Although Argos seem to have an agreement the Default notice in wrong, so it may be best to stop paying this and get them to take me to court. Even if the judge finds in their favour, am I correct in thinking they won't be able to add more charges and the token payments will all go towards paying of the debt?

 

Cheers for any help on this one.

 

Although I am making only token payments to my creditors that have acted reasonably (relatively), there are so many that the token payments add up to more than i can realistically afford, so any that I can stop paying help the overall picture.

[vint1954]

Just got another letter from the ~Pre-Court Division, this one is "as requested" a statement of account (this was requested 6 months ago as part of the CCA request, which could be claimed Argos had fulfilled). This one shows that Moorcroft took on a debt of over £500 in May, and now it stands at over £600 due to the addition of £48 of administration fees, and £24 of debt adjustment fees.

 

AFAIK these fees are illegal, and to be honest there is little point in making even a token payment if they are going to put monthly charges on that are increasing the debt at over ten times what I am paying off.

 

There would need to be provision in your Argos agreement for charges to be added. Has Argos or Moorcroft provided a Notice of Assignment? Moorcroft cannot just add charges to the account.

 

Although Argos seem to have an agreement the Default notice in wrong, so it may be best to stop paying this and get them to take me to court. Even if the judge finds in their favour, am I correct in thinking they won't be able to add more charges and the token payments will all go towards paying of the debt?

 

Is the agreement enforcable?

 

Cheers for any help on this one.

 

Although I am making only token payments to my creditors that have acted reasonably (relatively), there are so many that the token payments add up to more than i can realistically afford, so any that I can stop paying help the overall picture.

vint

[vint1954]

I take it that that is your signature on the bottom of the Agreement.

 

Charges

 

Charging for debt collection

 

2.9 Charges should not be levied unfairly.

2.10 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

a. claiming collection costs from a debtor in the absence of express contractual or other legal provision

 

Needs to be a clause within your original argos agreement.

 

b. misleading debtors into believing they are legally liable to pay collection charges when this is not the case, for example, when there is no contractual provision

 

See above

 

c. not giving an indication in credit agreements of the amount of any charges payable on default

 

This will be in your argos agreement, or not.

 

d. applying unreasonable charges, for example, charges not based on actual and necessary costs

e. applying charges which are disproportionate to the main debt.

 

This one is also applicable

Default Notice.

 

This is faulty. They should give you a date to rectify by, not 14 days. Reason is that you could not be expected to know if these were working days or callender days, so actual date required.

 

Also some of the text must stand out in the notice.

[count orlok]

That is my signature at the bottom of the copy, but there is no signature from the lender. I don't think they have the original. There is scope in the T&Cs for charges but they are higher than that charged, but they have terminated the account by asking for full payment so surely that no longer applies? It is not Argos who are adding the charges, it is Moorcroft.

 

All that said there seems little point in paying this. There is no way I could pay enough to cover the charges; when applied on a pro-rata basis to all our creditors we would be paying out more than our total income.

 

I shall have to write an apologetic letter to Moorcroft stating that we can no longer manage to service this debt, and invite them to take us to court, where hopefully we will get a kind judge who will order us to pay off the default at a £1 a month from our pension credits. Perhaps i should add that Tuesdays or Thursdays would be the best days for us

 

ADDED.

 

I've had nothing from Argos since they sent another copy of the Application form and the Agreement, sent after the default in answer I presume to my request to Moorcroft to let me know what they would be using in court. No one has claimed the debt has been assigned to Moorcroft they just claim to have "TAKEN-ON" the debt. My argument has been that I will carry on paying Argos until "they" write to tel me otherwise. Moorcroft keep insisting that I phone them to make an offer of payment I can afford and maintain. I've told them I can't phone them. They keep adding charges for telling me this. My credit file still shows me as owing Argos, where debts have been assigned such as the 1st cretins they show the new owners (the ones who are not getting paid BTW).

 

As I have said before I see no way out of this while Moorcroft carry on as they do. Once (if) a judgment is entered are they still allowed to charge £12 a month?

 

Have Moorcroft (or Argos on their sayso) ever taken anyone to court?

 

Cheers

Edited October 12, 2009 by count orlok
Added more info

[vint1954]

That is my signature at the bottom of the copy, but there is no signature from the lender. I don't think they have the original. There is scope in the T&Cs for charges but they are higher than that charged, but they have terminated the account by asking for full payment so surely that no longer applies? It is not Argos who are adding the charges, it is Moorcroft.

 

They will obviously need an original if they go to court. The lenders signature being missing, makes the agreement improperly executed and a court could rule on that in the lenders favour.

To continue to levy charges or interest, post termination requires a specific term within the agreement or original terms and conditions. They would need to prove beyond doubt that that condition was there for them to enjoy.

For Moorcroft to enjoy the rights and benefits of those terms, they would have to have absolute assignment from argos, if not they do not have the ability to levy charges or interest. Even then I think it would depend on the terms in your agreement. You need to look for those post contract terms.

I would put Moorcroft to strict proof that they own the debt under absolute assignment and that they have a contractural right with you through your credit agreement, not argos, to levy charges and interest. You can try and request a copy of the deed of assignement, but they wont part with that easily.

 

All that said there seems little point in paying this. There is no way I could pay enough to cover the charges; when applied on a pro-rata basis to all our creditors we would be paying out more than our total income.

 

I shall have to write an apologetic letter to Moorcroft stating that we can no longer manage to service this debt, and invite them to take us to court, where hopefully we will get a kind judge who will order us to pay off the default at a £1 a month from our pension credits. Perhaps i should add that Tuesdays or Thursdays would be the best days for us

 

I would try the above first.

 

ADDED.

 

I've had nothing from Argos since they sent another copy of the Application form and the Agreement, sent after the default in answer I presume to my request to Moorcroft to let me know what they would be using in court. No one has claimed the debt has been assigned to Moorcroft they just claim to have "TAKEN-ON" the debt. As above, you need to find out what their status is. My argument has been that I will carry on paying Argos until "they" write to tel me otherwise. Moorcroft keep insisting that I phone them to make an offer of payment I can afford and maintain. I've told them I can't phone them. They keep adding charges for telling me this. My credit file still shows me as owing Argos, where debts have been assigned such as the 1st cretins they show the new owners (the ones who are not getting paid BTW).

 

Sounds like they are only acting as agents. They then have no authority to levy charges or interest and it is unlawful for them to do so.

 

As I have said before I see no way out of this while Moorcroft carry on as they do. Once (if) a judgment is entered are they still allowed to charge £12 a month?

 

No

 

Have Moorcroft (or Argos on their sayso) ever taken anyone to court?

 

Cheers

Vint

[vint1954]

Check also to see if the monthly interest rate equates to the correct apr. There is an online converter for this here.

 

Interest Rate Converter

 

If the apr is miss stated by 0.1%, then the term is wrong and can only be enforced by a court. Also you can claim the difference back plus 8% interest over the term.

[vint1954]

Send this to Moorcroft, copy to Argos.

 

I would be inclined to pay Argos £1 per month at present.

 

xxxxxx 2009.

Dear xxxxxxxxx,

ACCOUNT IN DISPUTE

Re account no xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I write regarding recent communication regarding the above account. I acknowledge no dept to your organisation or to your client. I do not recognise your authority in this matter.

Further to my request under the above act, your attention is drawn to the fact that this account remains subject to a lawful serious dispute. On xxxxxxxx, by recorded delivery, I requested that your client supply me a copy of the executed credit agreement covering this account pursuant to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 section 78, a copy of this request is enclosed. To date you have failed to comply fully with my request, supplying only a poorly legible, improperly executed, front page copy of an agreement, and generic terms & conditions. These terms and conditions cannot be linked to any agreement which you claim that I have signed. Without production of the said agreement I am unable to assess if I am indeed liable for any alleged debt to your client, nor does it give me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’ as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

Contrary to your assertion, Argos have not complied with the terms of CCA 1974 s78. The documents that you have supplied, do not comply with your duties to supply a “True Copy” of any agreement you claim to have been signed by me, for pre 2007 agreements. As you will be further aware, an agreement is not executed, until signed by both parties, so the document that you have supplied, being a reconstruction, cannot be a True Copy of an Executed Agreement.

While this account remains in serious dispute, the relevant main points of the Law and OFT regulations while the account is in this state and Argos remain in default are:

• You may not ask for payment against this account.
  
• I am not obliged to offer any payment against this account.
  
• You cannot register any data with a third party.
  
• You cannot take any enforcement action, including registering Defaults.
  
• You cannot pass the account on to a third party for collection.
  
• You cannot sell the account.
  

Let me explain here, what a true copy is:

In a recent letter from the enforcement department of the OFT, the text below was quoted, explaining what is required.

“The copy of the executed agreement need not be an exact copy but it must be a ‘true copy’ and not some reconstruction of what the original might have been and it must contain the same terms as the original. Where the terms have been varied as provided for within the agreement, the copy of the original agreement must be accompanied by a document setting out the current terms, as varied. Certain details may be omitted from the original agreement eg the signature but the debtor must be in no doubt as to the true nature of his obligations under the loan.

 

Should no original agreement be in existence it is very hard to say that the copy the creditor offers to the debtor is, in fact, a true copy as there would be no original with which to compare it. In our view the onus of proof would be on the creditor to show that the copy is a true one and where none existed he may have difficulty discharging this. Neither should creditors suggest that a consumer has signed a credit agreement where they are unable to provide evidence to support this — to do so is likely to be a misleading action under Regulation 5 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (the CPRs) and would also constitute an unfair or improper business practice.”

 

I also refer you to the information below.

1. A valid credit agreement must contain certain terms within the signature document (s.60(1)(2) CCA 1974). These core terms are the credit limit, repayment terms and the rate of interest (SI 1983/1553 (6 Signing of agreement) which states that the prescribed terms must be within the signature document. (Column 2 schedule 6). s.61(1)(a) states the agreement must contain all the prescribed terms and be signed by both the debtor and on behalf of the creditor.

 

 

2. Further, s.127(3) CCA 1974 makes the account unenforceable if it is not in the proper form and content or improperly executed.

 

In Wilson and another v Hurstanger Ltd (2007) it was stated “In my judgment the objective of Schedule 6 is to ensure that, as an inflexible condition of enforceability, certain basic minimum terms are included which the parties … and/or the court can identify within the four corners of the agreement. Those minimum provisions combined with the requirement under s.61 that all the terms should be in a single document, and backed up by the provisions of section 127(3), ensure that these core terms are expressly set out in the agreement itself: they cannot be orally agreed; they cannot be found in another document; they cannot be implied; and above all they cannot be in the slightest mis-stated. As a matter of policy, the lender is denied any room for manoeuvre in respect of them. On the other hand, they are basic provisions, and the only question for the court is whether they are, on a true construction, included in the agreement”.

 

2. The need for prescribed terms to be contained in the credit agreement is confirmed by the Author of the CCA1974 act, I quote ““As the draftsman of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 I would like to thank Dr Richard Lawson for his interesting and well-argued article (30 August 2003) on Wilson v First County Trust Ltd [2003] UKHL 40, [2003] 4 All ER 97.

 

Dr Lawson may be interested to know that I included the provision in question (section 127(3)) entirely on my own initiative. It seemed right to me that if the creditor company couldn’t be bothered to ensure that all the prescribed particulars were accurately included in the credit agreement it deserved to find it unenforceable, and that the court should not have power to relieve it from this penalty. Nobody queried this, and it went through Parliament without debate. I’m glad the House of Lords has now vindicated my reasoning and confirmed that nobody’s human rights were infringed.” - 167 Justice of the Peace (2003) 773.”

In addition, your client has unlawfully rescinded the above agreement number, which I have previously accepted.

I am now granting to your client a further 7 days to produce a copy of an executable agreement. After that I will consider that the above matter is closed and that you will no longer pursue the alleged debt. If you are insisting that the non enforceable document, that you have supplied, is the only alleged agreement in your possession, then I would suggest that the best course of action would be to immediately set the balance of the above account number to zero.

Further, Moorcroft have been adding unlawful charges to this account, which by notice of this letter, I insist are removed immediately, unless you can supply me with a signed copy of a contract between Moorcroft and myself, allowing such charges.

I look forward to your response.

[count orlok]

No monthly interest that I can see on any of the documents, only APR.

 

Have written to Moorcroft again. Told them I couldn't afford to pay any more and unless they stopped the charges and refunded those they had already added they wouldn't even get that.

 

I've already asked them if they have any other copies as the one they sent was not good enough, they have replied saying that the application form and agreement are the same document, and sent me another copy of each (their answer does not make any sense to me, but hey). I am now on the verge of stopping payment, unless they change their attitude.

 

Have given them one last chance to act in a more understanding manor, or I'll stop paying them.

 

I am and have been paying Argos £1 per month for ages. Moorcroft kept insisting I was paying nothing because I was not paying them. I suggested they contact the police as the money was going from my bank and was obviously being stolen from them by someone at Argos. They eventually admitted that I was paying but that I should be paying them because they where acting on behalf of Argos, their clients. I said, "but Argos have said nothing to me, get Argos to write to me asking me to stop paying them, and I may consider paying you". Needless to say Argos have not written to me telling me to stop paying them (more's the pity).

Edited October 13, 2009 by count orlok

[vint1954]

No monthly interest that I can see on any of the documents, only APR.

 

Have written to Moorcroft again. Told them I couldn't afford to pay any more and unless they stopped the charges and refunded those they had already added they wouldn't even get that.

The monthly interest rate charged, would be on your CC statements.

[count orlok]

Cheers will check, seems you are answering while i edited

[count orlok]

Checked 'em, no monthly charge. All it says is:

 

Current APR on purchases 27.9%

Interest charges at 27.9% per annum

 

I was under the impression that they should be different?

[count orlok]

Moorcroft have sent me another stupid letter making impossible demands for payment. Have replied refering them to all my other letters, and told 'em I still can't phone. I feel I am wasting my time though, but there is perhaps some release in writing to them.

[vint1954]

Moorcroft have sent me another stupid letter making impossible demands for payment. Have replied refering them to all my other letters, and told 'em I still can't phone. I feel I am wasting my time though, but there is perhaps some release in writing to them.

Even if they ignore you, keep replying even if it is only, refer to my last letter, copy enclosed. Always have the last letter in the file.

[count orlok]

another letter from the idiots. They are now claiming i broke and agreement i made with them and they have come up with some figure they say i owe them. I would never make an agreement with ther ilk. They are now threatening to send someone round. I am so angry with them, i have told them i have a heart condition and this could kill me. Bar*tards I hate 'em.

 

I'll have to send another letter.

[count orlok]

Have now reported them to the OFT for threatening my life, and the ICO for getting my details from a utility company, and told them so. They answered saying a hold was put on my account while the complaint is investigated. The next day they sent another letter asking for money! They seem to have lost control of their threat'o'gram machine, it seems to have a mind of its own sending out letters willy nilly. This then is clear proof they're not worth any the paper they are printed on.

[jellybabe]

sorry for hijacking, we're being chased by moorcroft...no proper cca yet and loads of threatograms so far. But the worst is...we just had a collector from them knocking on our door.

Plese if anyone could have a look at my thread and advice, it would be much appreciated.Am really scared now:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/store-cards/148011-jellybabe-argos-hubbys-account.html

 

thanks,

jellybabe

[count orlok]

Just got a letter from Moorcroft; they've given up and passed the file back to the OC whe aparently is BOS.

 

Wonder who will be next to come ater the arrears

[count orlok]

It seems we have another bunch on the case, just got a letters from buchanan clark & wells. Should i be worried?

[count orlok]

Seems the aledged debt is with another comapny I have not heard of, could it be that I don't owe them anything, I definatly never borrowed anything from them and will tell BCW such.

[new-me2010]

My argos card is well past BCW mines with Crapbot now who in the missive I received today are putting the doorstep doggies on me now.

 

So which letters do I send now ?