Vegetarianism

[Bookworm]

I wasn't going to respond further as it is quite clear that people won't always agree and that's fine, but my assertions are both far from shaky and firmly planted in extensive reading on the evolution of man as a species.

 

I didn't say that we were "biologically unequipped to exist without meat", I said that in evolutionary terms, we haven't sufficiently evolved to cope with a wholly vegetarian diet (and to be more specific a grain-based one), which is 2 very different things. As a species, we are very little different from the hunter-gatherers I mentioned higher up. And Blueskies, I'm sorry, but you are completely mistaken in your assumption that we've only recently started eating meat, the omnivorous quality to which you refer is present throughout the further history of man. Whilst probably largely through scavenging rather than hunting to start with, all evidence points to man eating meat for as long as he could procure it.

 

I most certainly wasn't playing Devil's Advocate, if I were, I would have said so. ;-)

 

I could bore you all to death (and then eat your carcases, ha ha) with an extensive lecture about eating habits, digestion, bla bla bla, you have no idea how much... But I don't have the energy or the time. The information is out there, in libraries, on the Internet for those who want to research it.

 

Just one more quick word on the meat autodafe which has been ongoing, Tez, you asked for corroborration. Again, you need to research it yourself, if only because you won't just take my word for it anyway (which is perfectly fair): Look into PETA's activities. Not just the highly publicised throwing red paint on fur coats, but all the rest. Their carefully orchestrated smear campaigns and carefully slanted "scientific" reports to show how harmful meat is to us are just enough on the side of credible to get swallowed up (ho ho) without hesitation by a lot of people and organisations. Furthermore, a lot of so-called independent sources can in fact trace their funding back to PETA. I could go on, but I won't. Research it yourself, it's scary.

 

Personally, I am of the "live and let live" persuasion. I am not going to shun someone because they are vegetarians, and won't waft a bacon sandwich under their nose to make them crack, in the same way that I won't offer pork roast to my Moslem friends or wine to my teetotal ones. I don't carry my atheism on my sleeve and even though I am a heterosexual, I don't go on hunt-the-gay weekends either. All I am asking in return is not to have other people trying to convert me to theirs. ;-)

 

One more thought, by the way: If methane is such a problem, if all humans converted to vegetarianism, surely it would only transfer the issue from cattle to people? ... sorry, as I typed this, I had a vision (or should it be a nose-ion? ) of enclosed spaces, lifts, shopping centres etc... Doesn't bear thinking about, really.

[Bookworm]

This is partly the concerns I have; the wider picture of the destructive industries that support the supply of meat, rather than the localised industry itself.

Sorry, had missed that. In what way is the supply of meat, including transport and every other aspect which impacts the environment more of a problem that if it were a non-meat product?

 

Crops have to be sown, grown, harvested, processed, treated, transported. They have by-products too, some of which can take a fair time to bio-degrade too. The processing of wheat or corn alone is long and consumes energy, a lot of energy.

 

When it comes to environmnent impact, I am not sure that the veggie v meat argument hold water, to be perfectly honest. For each slaughterhouse, you have mills. For 1000 m2 of grassland for cattle, you probably need twice as much for a wheat field.

 

I think that if the environment is the issue, then Bluey's approach to only shop for local products is probably the best, whether meat or not. But that usually comes at a higher cost and a lot of people simply don't have that luxury.

[blueskies]

I think that if the environment is the issue, then Bluey's approach to only shop for local products is probably the best, whether meat or not. But that usually comes at a higher cost and a lot of people simply don't have that luxury.

 

The cost in the local markets in Newcastle is quite comparable with the supermarket prices for their 'normal quality' ranges (i.e. not value ranges) although the quality I have experienced is, on average, far higher. I do, however, have the luxury of being able to shop in places like that (I wouldn't have been able to where I lived in Kent for instance) and, as Bookie rightly says, being able to afford more than the cheapest prices.

[Tezcatlipoca]

And once again Bookie willfully - and with little thought to the consequences - gives a calm, measured response. We're clearly going to have to start disagreeing on more subjects, Bookie; this is rather fun

 

(1) we haven't sufficiently evolved to cope with a wholly vegetarian diet (and to be more specific a grain-based one)... ...(2) As a species, we are very little different from the hunter-gatherers I mentioned higher up... ...(3) And Blueskies, I'm sorry, but you are completely mistaken in your assumption that we've only recently started eating meat, the omnivorous quality to which you refer is present throughout the further history of man.

 

(1) Sorry, but I disagree, and again point to the vast multitude of human beings who now live without any meat whatsoever and suffer no ill effects as a direct result. The human body - like any biochemical machine - requires certain proteins, vitamins and minerals in certain (or at least above certain) amounts in order to survive and grow. Whilst meats undeniably contain a great many of those requirements, they can also be readily found elsewhere from non-meat sources.

 

Whilst I think it might be tempting to point to certain historical, and even modern day, examples of human societies who - for whatever reason - do not include meat in their diet and suffer attrocious maladies, the comparison is flawed. Invariably, those societies are afflicted from wider dietary imbalances, rather than simply not having access to meat itself.

 

(2) I think this is something of an irrelevance to the question of vegetarianism. The fact we descended from hunter-gatherer societies, and to a great degree still are, is a comment on our social cohesion and behaviour, not on our diet, and certainly not on the validity of our choices to abstain or comply with dietry choices.

 

Society today has, certainly compared to its forebears, an unparalleled level of understanding of the human body, and, moreover, its chemical requirements. This enables us to make non-medical decisions (such as ethical choices) about our diet and suffer few, if any, ill effects.

 

(3) I have to agree with Bookie on this point, blueskies. I think it's fairly well established that our species has been chowing down on dead flesh for as long as we've been around, certainly as long as any form of recorded history (I'm thinking neolithic cave painting here) tells us.

 

 

Realistically, I think whichever side of the camp you fall on we can all be agreed on at least one major factor here; that the human species is innately, vastly, and overwhelmingly adaptable, which is of course the key to our success as Top Species.

 

Diet-wise, I don't hold with the sometimes, and very unwelcome, idiocy that seems to pervade some vegetarians in assuming that human diet is somehow a linear moral scale, with carnivores at one end and transcendant herbivores at the other. I think it's more reasonable to consider the human animal more as a scavenger, or at least oppurtunist, where diet is concerned.

 

What the advance of civilisation, science, philosophy and medicine has done for us isn't that meat-eating has somehow been proven wrong, rather, that vegetarianism has been made a realistic alternative, and that those who choose to cut out meat from their diet (which I'm almost certainly going to be doing, incidentally) no longer means social ridicule or the development of health problems.

[Bookworm]

Actually, you may have a point there, Tez.

 

Thinking about it, it may be that it's the evangelistic approach to vegetarianism that annoys me more than the vegetarianism itself.

 

I saw a sketch last week (Michell & Webb) where meat-eater goes to dinner at veggie friend and asks what's for dinner. On being told the course, he says: "well yeah and what meat are we getting?" Friend replies: "well, none, you know I'm a vegetarian". Meat-eater: "yes , I know, but I'm not! When you came to us last week, I made you mushroom risotto, it's only fair that you should reciprocate when I am coming to yours!"... etc... which actually made me both chuckle and think.

 

Anyway, back on topic, I have realised that yes, it is "meat-eating is wrong" attitude which gets my goat, in the same way that people who have found Jesus look on you pityingly because you haven't. I suppose really that it is proselytism which annoys me, not what leads to it.

[MONX]

Does this mean I can tuck into my bacon sandwich now? Im starving!

[blueskies]

I stand by my point regarding how (relatively) recently we have been eating meat. I was going back beyond the history of humanity to the apes species which we have evolved from. Most of the apes have a remarkably similar digestive system to us and cope very well on a purely vegetarian diet.

 

We haven't evolved much since homo-erectus times physically, most of the evolution since that point has been intellectual evolution (though if you look at some aspects of society it appears we may be regressing back now).

[underdog13]

Actually, you may have a point there, Tez.

 

Thinking about it, it may be that it's the evangelistic approach to vegetarianism that annoys me more than the vegetarianism itself.

 

Anyway, back on topic, I have realised that yes, it is "meat-eating is wrong" attitude which gets my goat, in the same way that people who have found Jesus look on you pityingly because you haven't. I suppose really that it is proselytism which annoys me, not what leads to it.

 

Totally agree with you there, Bookie. Each to his/her own. I don't like people preaching to me that I should be eating meat (and boy, have I encountered a lot of those in 20 years); so by the same token, I don't feel it's my place to tell people they shouldn't be eating meat.

 

Think the world would have far fewer problems if people would just mind their own business more often and stop thinking their way is the right and only way;)

[The GodMother]

Gyzmo how do u manage to shop for 2 speading £15 a week.

 

Being a vegitarian when i was did me no harm i just preffer my meaty steaks etc, I notice Steak seems to have cropped up a lot in this thread, but worrying over eating bacon sandwiches is not a issue for me as since i was pregnant with my son nearly 6 years ago i have not been able to eat bacon on itts own or in a sandwiche without throwing up. Suprisingly both kids love bacon sandwiches.

 

Its only in the last 2 years i have been able to eat bacon in meals.

[Going Down]

I have some points to this as a confirmed carnivore.

 

If you are looking at going vegetarian on the moral grounds of carbon footprint, please bear in mind the vast swathes of the amazon being raised to the ground to plant crops to produce the soya used for meat replacement products and Tofu etc and while it's still not as big an area as for cattle it is growing every year and will catch up in due course.

 

Also will you be sticking to locally grown seasonal fruit and veg? If it's imported things including Soya and Tofu and tropical fruits, then you still have massive carbon footprints. Even if it's homegrown if it's out of season or a tropical fruit or veg many are grown in heated greenhouses which take massive amounts of energy to heat and give enough artificial light in darker months. All of which causes big carbon footprints.

 

If you are veggie on moral grounds based on the killing of animals then where does the killing of animals become acceptable? Do you wear leather or use any products that have animal parts in them? Things like soap and even whether the veg you are eating was fertilised with animal based products like fishmeal etc. You see where this point is going....

 

Then you can move onto the other animal products like dairy or wool, is it OK to mass breed and feed these creatures purely for our purposes? if it is, why is it any worse than eating them? they still get slaughtered once they are past their useful life.

 

The moral stance can then be taken even further, is it right to keep pets? birds in cages, fish in tanks, cats and dogs kept indoors etc etc

 

I stand by my point regarding how (relatively) recently we have been eating meat. I was going back beyond the history of humanity to the apes species which we have evolved from. Most of the apes have a remarkably similar digestive system to us and cope very well on a purely vegetarian diet.

 

Good point, but our closest relatives on the evolutionary ladder, the Chimpanzees hunt and kill other animals and eat them . We also have the teeth designed to rip and tear flesh as well as ones for chewing all foods as we are truly omnivorous.

 

Whilst it may be possible to get all you need from a vegitarian diet, most ones I know take vitamin and mineral supplements which are all chemically processed and kinda defeat the ideal of healthier natural products. Also raises the point of what raw ingredients do they use to produce the supplements and where are they made and shipped in from?

 

I can't understand half arsed moral stances, go all the way or don't bother.

 

Me, I'll be eating something which had a face most days of the week :grin:

[Bookworm]

Funnily enough, DH is watching this very moment on Eden a programme and I just hear this sentence: "Genetically, this baby and this prehistoric baby are completely identical, we haven't evolved at all", which was was I was trying to say earlier.

 

Also, looking for something completely different, I came across this, and considering the site, I think we can safely say they are not going to lean on the side of the meat-eaters, lol.

History of Vegetarianism - What did our ancestors eat?

 

Introduction

 

 

You sometimes hear the argument that humans are "naturally vegetarian" or that they evolved as vegetarians. This is somewhat dangerous to pursue as the scientific evidence all indicates that we are omnivores, i.e., we can survive on a wide variety of plant and animal foods. It also used to be believed that the great apes were all frugivores (fruit-eaters), but recent reseach shows that chimpanzees at least will attack and kill small animals and will eat carrion if they find it. The chimpanzee is thought to be our closest animal relative.

The extreme opposite concept, however, that of Man the Great Hunter, also seems to be untrue. In his book The Rise and Fall of the Third Chimpanzee, Jared Diamond describes how he was invited on a hunt by a tribe in New Guinea who had retained Stone Age technology and habits of thought in the 20th century. The day's total bag was two baby birds, a few frogs, and a lot of mushrooms. Although the men of the tribe frequently boasted of the large animals they had killed, when pressed for details, they admitted that large animals were killed only a few times in a hunter's career. These peoples' stone tools were far more advanced than the stone tools found on prehistoric sites, so Professor Diamond thinks it unlikely that prehistoric hunters could have enjoyed a much higher success rate than present day hunter-gatherer tribes. It seems more likely that early humans ate carrion, small prey like baby birds, and a lot of plant foods.

;-)

[barracad]

I'm not sure how our ancestors eating meat or not eating meat makes a lot of difference. I don't eat meat because I don't want to eat meat, it's as simple as that. It never occurs to me that I ought to because some dude did many years ago. That same dude who went around hunting etc, I'm pretty sure didn't have a car or access to the internet... I don't think I shouldn't drive a car or go online just because my ancestors didn't!

[Castlebest]

It seems to me that the problem isn't so much what we eat as how much we eat...

 

We are the dominant species on the planet and so far very successful so our numbers are increasing, so much so that we are in danger of exhausting the food chain.

To combat this our scientists and farmers are developing ways to increase the yield of their products, animals get chemical enhancements in there food and plants are sprayed and genetically engineered to provide "better" crops.

 

Maybe we should do what we do with other species that become too prolific and have a cull.....

[underdog13]

Or switch to a liquid diet. From tonight I am becoming a confirmed ginandtonicarian.......hic

[underdog13]

Maybe we should do what we do with other species that become too prolific and have a cull.....

 

Starting with creds and DCA's?

[Castlebest]

Starting with creds and DCA's?

 

Closely followed by Bank management, politicians, estate agents, Katie Price and Peter Andrey

[underdog13]

oooh Castlebest, you're making me feel hungry:D

[Castlebest]

Wont be the first time Katie Price has been drooled over 8-)

[underdog13]

wasn't quite what I meant:lol:

[Bookworm]

I find it worrying that we seem to always come back to cannibalism on DCAs etc as a solution. I wonder whether us CAGgers have not evolved a bit too far...

[MONX]

I find it worrying that we seem to always come back to cannibalism on DCAs etc as a solution. I wonder whether us CAGgers have not evolved a bit too far...

 

 

I also suspect they might be a bit tough and tasteless too! :grin:

[underdog13]

and possibly poisonous:D

[lexis200]

I have no issue with being vege or otherwise. Personally I'm a carnivore, but I'm happy to go without meat and if I was not cooking it for my OH and kids I would probably go weeks without and not worry about it.

 

What does irritate me though is people who state they are vegetarian for moral reasons 'but I will eat fish'!!! So you are not a vegetarian, you are someone who doesn't eat meat. They are two different things.

 

Sorry, it's nothing that adds to the original argument, but it really irritates me and has been on my mind as we have relatives coming over to stay with my mum who smugly say they are vege and how wrong it is to eat animals but then go on to list how much they like fish. AAGGGGHHHHHH!!

 

My mum's banned me from going to dinner with them while they're there as she doesn't trust me not to say something:)

[barracad]

What does irritate me though is people who state they are vegetarian for moral reasons 'but I will eat fish'!!! So you are not a vegetarian, you are someone who doesn't eat meat. They are two different things.

 

I agree with this to a certain extent - it really bugs me that people say it's wrong to eat animals but then eat fish... I don't get it at all. However, to say they are not a 'vegetarian' is quite subjective.

 

Recently I was privy to a heated discussion over the definition of 'vegetarian'. Person 1 insisted that people who said they were vegetarian but ate honey were not truly vegetarian. Person 2 said honey wasn't such a big deal, that she considered herself to be vegetarian but occasionally ate foods that contained honey and that she even ate vegetarian cheese that contained casein on rare occasions.

 

Person 3 said that Person 2 had no right to call herself a vegetarian. He absolutely never ate anything that contained animal products - no honey, casein, whey - and even used only raw sugar to avoid sugar that may have been filtered through charred bone. That made him a true vegetarian, he said. But, pointed out Person 1, you are wearing a leather belt. But, came back Person 3, I got it in a second hand store, which means I didn't contribute to its manufacture, so it's okay. At that point, Person 1 pointed out that nearly everything contains some animal products - film, tyres, cars, computers, phones - so it is virtually impossible for anyone to be a true vegetarian

 

Personally, I don't refer to myself as a 'vegetarian'. I just don't eat meat or fish, simple.

[lexis200]

I'd be describing that as Vegan when you get to the no-animal-by-product-stage personally! I do see your point though.

 

Still doesn't make the smug nature of my relatives any easier to take though, so I feel I won't be meeting up with them for a nice 'vegetarian' fish dinner;)