Just remembered this thread I have been living abroad and had many many many letters, doorstep visits and telephone conversations. We are at stalemate right now and the debt collection agencies know it as Orange are getting through one every six weeks Conversation normally goes along the line of: DCA "How do you intend to pay" Me "I have no intention of paying a penny" DCA "but you owe it" Me "no I don't because the handset was an inducement to enter a contract and the failure to provide a lasting and effective solution to a fault breaches the contract, therefore I woe nothing and will never pay" DCA "but, but you owe it and we'll take you to court" Me"great because when we get to court I will prove my case, win, claim back the money I had already paid, then claim compensation for harassment by you, let me know what date please" "Oh and even if I lose, I am no longer resident in the UK so you can't enforce any judgement which might be issued, either way, you're getting no money" Wait a fortnight for a new DCA to write. Orange know they can't win, the DCA's know they can't win and if I were living in the UK I'd actually be tempted to take them on further, for now I just enjoy taunting them. GD

Update: I've spoken to Consumer Direct and they have said the following: The handset and tariff are NOT separate under consumer law, the handset whether paid for or free was an inducement to enter into the contract and is therefore part of the deal. If a repair or replacement is not "lasting and effective" which 4 replacements in 14 days clearly is neither lasting or effective then I have the right to cancel the contract. It is not covered by the Sale Of Goods Act, it's actually covered by the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982. I have been advised to write to them by recorded delivery telling them as the handset is faulty and they have been unable to provide a lasting and effective solution they have failed to honour their commitment to the contract under the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 and I require the contract to be cancelled with immediate effect. They are also sending me a template letter to help. If they refuse I can report them to my local trading standards who will investigate and I could in theory take Orange to small claims court to claim compensation. I hope this information helps someone else in the future rather than accepting this bull about the handset and contract being separate things.

I've just found this on Norfolk Trading Standards website It seems Norfolk TS agree with me

How are they? I am not in possession of a working handset. My understanding is that their responsibility under SOGA is not negated by them offering a different product, they have to provide the one I purchased. Where do I have 2 contracts? I have one that came with the phone and it specifically links the phone and tariff together. They may have separate terms and conditions, but they get trumped by consumer law. Yes I have a sim card, but as they have failed to provide a working handset, that sim card is of no use, therefore they are not meeting their obligations under the contract. I'm just going to cancel it and see if they want to take me to court, where I feel confident enough that I can prove they have failed to provide the service I signed up for. That said I might do a moneyclaim against them. No I wont however, I'd rather sort it amicably.

I appreciate the replies. We've established that I do not have to take an alternative, so at what point do I have the right to refuse yet another replacement faulty handset? If I refuse to accept their alternative and they cannot provide the handset originally "purchased" and will not provide the alternative I want we are at a stalemate. This then leaves me with no working handset which leaves me unable to use the service the contract is for. I do still dispute the handset not being part of the contract. By contract I do not mean the tariff, this is part of the contract of sale along with the handset. The very fact that they own the handset until the tariff has ended links the handset to the tariff and the fact that they state on the receipt that the purchase of the handset results in the contract term, if the purchase of the handset is cancelled due to them being unable to provide a working one, the tariff should be void? If I bought a TV and it didn't work, I wouldn't have to accept a different model, I would be entitled to a full refund I wouldn't even have to accept 4 replacements before that refund.

There is no work around, it is a common fault. It's a LG KM900 which freezes, what's more I can't try to fix it myself as that would put me in breach of the terms. I contacted LG directly and they said it has to go back to Orange. As for it being a gift and not forming part of the contract, that seems to be in contradiction to my receipt which states Further more there is an entire section in the terms and conditions which quite clearly state that the phone is not owned by me until all payments due have been paid ie the monthly payments under the new tariff for 18 months. So the contract is part of the entire transaction as without the handset the contract wouldn't have existed and the phone is quite clearly not a gift until all the payments have been made. Yes they have offered the replacement/repair, but I'm now on my fifth phone in total and my fourth in 2 weeks, this cannot continue ad infinitum can it? It takes me an hour to backup the phone and another 2 hours on average waiting for the courier to deliver the replacement and another hour restoring the phone to the settings I want so I've wasted 12 hours so far in the last 2 weeks. It's all well and good them offering an alternative, but I don't want it and you wouldn't be forced to take an alternative make/model of any other product where a tariff isn't involved, why should this be any different?

I have a handset on contract that I've had for 4 months, I had a replacement within a few days of getting it for a faulty battery/power but it also had another fault which I didn't mention. Fast forward a few weeks and the fault on the first handset has happened again, the provider did a diagnosis and agreed it was faulty and replaced with no issue. They also replaced the replacement 6 days after that with the same issue. At this point I was told that a 3rd consecutive handset with the same error would trigger an offer for an alternative handset. lo and behold 3 days later the problem happened again. I've been offered a choice of 2 handsets, 1 of which is no longer offered to new or upgrading customers, the other I just don't like. The only alternative handset I would like is much more expensive and I'm not unreasonable so I don't expect to get that model for free and I can't afford the additional fee even if they offered it me. I am a bit aggrieved that I don't even get the choice of any similarly priced handset that any other upgrading customer could choose, only the 2 generated by the computer which seems to have been based purely on the megapixels of the camera. My stance is that the handset forms part of the contract, and as they have willingly replaced it as faulty 2 times there is little dispute that the phone is not fit for purpose. As far as I am concerned I entered into a contract for a specific handset along with a monthly subscription, They cannot provide a faultless handset and have therefore failed to hold up their end of the contract. I do not feel that I should be under any obligation to take the alternative handset that they choose to offer in light of the fact that they are failing to meet their side of the deal. So I have asked them to take the faulty handset back and cancel the term of the contract. I'm happy to carry on paying for the monthly calls and will upgrade to a different handset as and when I find an alternative I want and can afford. They have refused to do this and have now claimed that they shouldn't even be offering and alternative handset as I should have had 3 replacements with the same fault (4 phones in total) with the same fault, so I have accepted yet another handset. Their stance is that the monthly contract is separate from the handset and they will not cancel it and that they only have obligation to offer a replacement or a suitable alternative and if I choose to refuse it then that's up to me. Am I right here? Does the handset form part of the whole contract of sale? bearing in mind I only signed the new contract to get that specific handset?

Cheers guys, it's good to hear from people who've actually done this. Let me be clear though, my intention is not to avoid the debts altogether, I want to clear them at some point, but I can't just now. I'm borrowing money off family to get me abroad, but when there, the income prospects are staggering and I should be able to pay back every penny I owe in under a year, even without negotiating them down. In reality it will take me between 5 and 7 years in the UK even if I got back to a reasonable level of earnings. Of course as they've been adding more and more fees on and the debt has been spiraling up, I'm not going to pay them every penny they say I owe, but I could if I wanted to Where I am going I will get a PO box anyway as it's just easier and more reliable than trying to get mail delivered to your address, so that works fine for me. I also need to negotiate with my mobile phone supplier to see if they will let me out of the contract or if I have to default on that too but I do have a PAYG number that I can let the creditors have to talk to GD

I think I will further cover my arse, the notification of my change of address will be sent to them by someone else. I have a mate who is a solicitor, not in this field, but he'll send me a few letters confirming my change of address for a crate of guinness. That should help ensure a set aside when I get back if they've been silly enough to use the incorrect address. I'm sure the court will take a solicitors letter as good enough evidence. Either way it doesn't matter, I haven't got the cash to pay them now, they have already issued a default so my record is knackered anyway. I'll pay MBNA in my own god damn time at a rate I decide. I might even get one of their cards in my destination country and when I'm due to permanently return to the UK, max it out and default on them again I would be interested in any other idea's though. It's time for me to have some fun with them (MBNA and most of my other creditors) for a change. GD

Hi, Thanks for your reply. According to the guidance on justice.gov.uk Claims which may not be issued through the Centre 2.3 The Centre will not issue any of the following types of claim – (7) a claim where the defendant’s address for service as it appears on the claim form is not in England and Wales; My understanding of this is that if they have my new address abroad they must use this address on the papers and if they do, as it's outside England/Wales the court will refuse to issue. If they entered my old address and get one issued it's a simple matter of getting it set aside as it should never have been issued in the first place. So I intend to write to them, by special delivery and inform them before I go, or I might send them a fax from my new home I doubt they'll have time to process it through to court in time anyway. GD

Well my situation hasn't got any better but an opportunity has arisen to live and work out of the UK in fact out of Europe. A couple of my creditors have issued defaults but none as yet have gone to CCJ level in fact they've only recently passed the files to DCA's. I fully intend to pay my way, but have been unable to due to circumstances beyond my control and the level of harassment I've had from these financial institutions has made me quite militant. Now when I leave the country which will be December or early January am I right in thinking that they cannot get a CCJ issued against me as I will no longer be resident? If they can't that would be great because it will ensure no further damage can be done to my record while I'm away which should I decide to return to the UK in the future could well be important. It will also allow me the chance to go away and forget them for a while and when I return to the UK in a few months with hopefully a bit of cash in my pockets I will be in a strong position to negotiate a decent settlement figure. Oh and one final thing, would I be better just not giving them my new address abroad? I am currently at parents and they are very concerned if a debt collector turns up and they are just about daft enough to pay them money even though I have told them to just say "doesn't live in the UK, go away" should it ever happen. GD

Anybody there?

Hi Ang, I don't know to be honest I sent the account in dispute letter not that I think it matters with MBNA. I have had an email from them asking me to phone them, so I've replied saying No! I'm new to all this myself and to be honest I think the letter templates on here are great, but there doesn't seem to be much in the way of advice from people who have been through it or actually know what they are doing. I've posted in a few sections abotu ot her debts where I've had no replies ie Egg, Abbey Business, Cahoot and it's a bit dissapointing, I thought I'd try this rather than using a legal firm, but with no help to hand I might have no other option as I can't afford to mess it up though ignorance. GD

I had a letter from Power2contact a couple of weeks or so ago about my Skycard balance and they metioned about a doorstep visit. I immediately wrote to both power2contact and Skycard using the template refusing a doorstep visit yet today I had a visit, I wasn't in but I called the man on his mobile and informed him that I wouldn't be seeing him and that I'd already forbidden the visit. The man himself was very nice and didn't push in any way, but the fact that after telling them not to send someone, they did it anyway. What action can I now take against them I've put this in here as Skycard is administered by Barclaycard I believe.

Ok chaps I will need your help on this but before I begin does it matter that Egg have already terminated my account? In mid June they said it had been terminated and passed to a DCA who would be in touch within the next 10 days. I've heard nothing from them or a DCA since. I'm about to send off the CCA request letter, or would I be better waiting until they try to contact me again? cheers GD

I have an Abbey Business account and recently hadn't got enough in the account to cover a few small DDMs. Unfortunately I was too busy dealing with personal creditors to take much notice of it, however I'm now getting sorted and organised again. I notice that for each DDm they bounced, thay applied an "Instant Overdraft Request Fee" of £32 yet still bounced the DDM. I am going on the argument that if they are charging me an Overdraft request fee, they should be granting me the overdraft and allowing the DDM to get paid. Also the fact that they refused the payment caused some of the companies to re-present the DDM and the whole thing happened again. one even presented for a 3rd time meaning the £14 DDM has resulted in £96 in bank charges in 1 month They didn't allow a £10 payment through but did add £32 in charges to be deducted and then charged a £15 unauthorised Overdraft Fee on top. Surely this isn't Treating CUstomers Fairly, something the FSA are meant to be hot on? Is my logic skewed? Is it unreasonable to think that if you are charged an instant overdraft fee, they should allow the DDM payment to go through after charging the fee for it? Is it also fair to be charged an instant overdraft request fee, then be charged an unauthorised overdraft fee? Particularly when the £15 is applied because their other charges have taken me overdrawn? I am now over £300 overdrawn due to a period of six weeks of tardiness on my part when I didn't get around to even stopping the DDMs. All of this overdraft is bank charges, every penny of it and it's growing as they add further unauthorised overdraft fees on. My life is now getting back on track and my business is picking back up again so I need to sort this out to continue and progress.

Well I actually gave them 3 weeks and no CCA, so the default letter was sent, not that I think it'll make any difference. What's more I'd guess my agreement will be enforcable. I did send a harassment letter in and much to my surprise I've had a reply. The standard we don't think it's harassment line, but they have agreed to only correspond with me in writing so long as I respond to their letters. I have several creditors and simply getting the calls from MBNA stopped has removed over 75% of the phone calls I was getting a week. I'm feeling less stressed and more able to deal with things now as I'm not getting worked up every time the phone rings. My advice to anyone is use the telephone harassment template and send it.

I'm glad you tried to help, it's a good thing. However 999 is for emergency calls for the emergency services for everything else there's 118118 or any of the other directory enquiries.

I've just joined my local CU to use as a savings vehicle where I used to use my banks savings account. If I want credit again in the future I will use their facilities for that too. I'm recommending them to everybody I talk to.

Wind your neck in, you never stated how much of it was for the car and I was offering the only realistic solution I can see along with explanations as to why the others are out. Loan - Nobody will give you one because you aren't working yet. Credit Card - You said no Finance - You said no, plus you are unlikely to get it. Have you tried the Job Centre to see if they can help out with a loan? I doubt it, but if you don't ask... Only other place I can think of would be credit union, but you'd need savings with them before they will give you a loan so I guess that's out too. After that you are looking at doorstep loan firms who charge silly APRs Lenders Compared: An Independent Site . Indeed, then again I'm not the one who is in a dilemma about commiting fraud! Good luck

Friends or family are bout the only ways. Think about it for a minute, would you lend someone two grand who not only will be likely to be in probation in a new job, but hasn't actually got a confirmed start date yet? I know I wouldn't and it would be irresponsible lending to say the least. I would doubt a credible lender will lend in the current market until you have been in the job for quite a few months. And that's the problem, after the credible lenders are out you are left with the loan sharks and doorstep loan firms charging 200+% apr. I'd say swallow your pride and ask friends or family for help. Also you really don't need to be spending 2 grand on a car, look for a high mileage ex company car, they tend to have been properly serviced and are much cheaper than low mileage cars and there's plenty of firms having to get rid of staff and their cars. Failing that, buy a banger to tide you over for a few weeks/months, there's plenty of places to buy a car with a few months tax and test on for a couple of hundred quid or even less, when you've done with it, scrap it.

Only one thing to do in Nottingham - eat in Hooters http://hooters.know-where.com/hooters/cgi/index?mapid=intl&design=default&lang=en#United Kingdom They have nice baps Jongleurs comedy club makes a nice change from time to time.

No, because it's fraud.

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