MBNA/Optima Court action

[MisterV]

Hi everyone,

 

Just to let you know where im at with MNBA.

 

The last letter i sent them was to tell them they had sent me a copy of an application form and not a copy of the CCA.

 

I dont think my "application form" has all the prescribed terms on for starters. Anyway...

 

MBNA have been surprisingly quiet, only had a few calls, nothing too drastic. Today i received a letter from AEGIS asking me to make a payment and telling me what a great customer i am etc etc...

 

Not sure who these AEGIS people are, should i write back telling them the account is in dispute?

 

Hopefully somebody can pass on some advice

 

Thanks

 

Thanks Fangio, all that did was confuse me more lol

 

I think this would clear up a lot of uncertainty on this forum if we could get difinitive answers here on this thread to the following questions.

 

1) Amount of credit. - Does this have to be stated as a figure or is it acceptable for a credit card company to say " we will set the credit limit and may change it from time to time" ? Its obvious that as just an application form to apply for a credit card it wouldnt have a credit limit on. Depending on the answer to the question, this pretty much rules out this option as an unenforceable point.

 

2) Is it acceptable to show the interest as just the APR ?

 

3) I have read that an agreement becomes unenforceable if the credit limit is increased without the consent of the debtor?

 

4) Does the name and address of the debtor and creditor have to appear together?

 

5) Can an application form be considered a valid CCA? (assuming it has the correct prescribed terms)

 

6) If the application form/CCA has all the correct prescribed terms, do they have to be on the same side of paper? Or if they can be on the back/another sheet of paper does it have to say, see overleaf or, see seperate terms and conditions?

 

7) Can current terms and conditions be deemed acceptable? (Obviously the new ones show the £12 penalty charge)?

 

8) What exactly does the phrase " four corners of the agreement mean?"

 

9) How can an application form be a true CCA, surely an agreement becomes "legal" after they have agreed the application. At application stage it is exactly what it says. Surely a CCA is sent after an application has been approved?

 

10) Does an agreement have to say " Credit card agreement?' or is "Credit agreement" sufficent?

 

I think if these questions are answered by the experts here it might clear up 75% of the questions that need to be addressed to enable people to make an informed judgement on their own cases. I really hope this helps.

 

Thanks for listening.

[Fangio of the nineties]

I think this would clear up a lot of uncertainty on this forum if we could get difinitive answers here on this thread to the following questions.

 

Ok...i'll take the plunge...though i'm far from expert and may only add to the confusion.

 

1) Amount of credit. - Does this have to be stated as a figure or is it acceptable for a credit card company to say " we will set the credit limit and may change it from time to time" ? Its obvious that as just an application form to apply for a credit card it wouldnt have a credit limit on. Depending on the answer to the question, this pretty much rules out this option as an unenforceable point. No, they can say that they will determine the limit later.

 

2) Is it acceptable to show the interest as just the APR ? Not sure, but i don't think so..

 

3) I have read that an agreement becomes unenforceable if the credit limit is increased without the consent of the debtor? No idea, not heard that argument.. but most agreements seem to include a clause saying they may vary the limit from time to time.. so i imagine thats ok..

 

4) Does the name and address of the debtor and creditor have to appear together? I think both parties must be identified on the agreement, not sure whether this would need to include the address..

 

5) Can an application form be considered a valid CCA? (assuming it has the correct prescribed terms) Yes i believe it can, if it contains the terms and is properley executed..

 

6) If the application form/CCA has all the correct prescribed terms, do they have to be on the same side of paper? Or if they can be on the back/another sheet of paper does it have to say, see overleaf or, see seperate terms and conditions? They do not need to be on the same side, nor indeed on the same sheet, so far as i can gather (and this is relevant to my circs) they need to be contained within the document somewhere between the title and the sig box, so that you could reasonably be expected to see them before you signed..If they are on the reverse then there ought to be something on the front telling you that...

 

7) Can current terms and conditions be deemed acceptable? (Obviously the new ones show the £12 penalty charge)? No

 

8) What exactly does the phrase " four corners of the agreement mean?" Struggling to find a proper answer to this myself.. but see above...

 

9) How can an application form be a true CCA, surely an agreement becomes "legal" after they have agreed the application. At application stage it is exactly what it says. Surely a CCA is sent after an application has been approved? You would have thought so.. but i don't think that's the case

 

10) Does an agreement have to say " Credit card agreement?' or is "Credit agreement" sufficent? Should do, but if that's the only difficulty then i think a court would enforce it anyway.

 

I think if these questions are answered by the experts here it might clear up 75% of the questions that need to be addressed to enable people to make an informed judgement on their own cases. I really hope this helps.

 

Sorry it's not the expert opinion you're looking for.. but i hope may be a start.

 

Perhaps another question to add to you list would be..

Must the credoitor have the original agreeement to enforece it ? or will a copy satisfy a court..?

Much of the debate here seems to revolve around whether the agreements are enforeceable..Creditors seem to go to great lengths to make you believe that they have an enforceable ORIGINAL agreement. But in their attempts to comply with a CCA request they send out poor/illegible copies of copies or copies of scans or copies of microfiche..These invariably have some flaw in them..but even when they do send a copy of a seemingly enforeceable agreement.. you have to ask yourself.. is it real ? and do they still have the original..?

This is something that you often don't find out till you get to court.. and a great many debtors do not bother to defend court action and end up with a judgement against them regarless of the true position..

If these companies did have the original agreement .. and they were confident they could enforce it then..

Why would they not send a good legible copy in the first instance ?

and

Why would they not swiftly seek enforcement of the debt in court ?

Truth is ... they don't so they can't..

The difficulty is getting to the point where they admit it..

Hope i've not confused or misled you..with any luck a CAG heavy weight will be along to add to our knowledge..

Thanks for listening.

 

 

FOTN

[supasnooper]

I believe the information in this thread that steven4064 put together deals with Consumer Credit Agreements very well.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt-issues/162851-consumer-credit-agreements.html

 

 

And perhaps it would be wise to advise those posters seeking the answer to their question on CCA's did some research of their own so they fully understand the Consumer Credit Act and its amendments.

 

I say this, as it will be the Original Poster, when in court, who has to explain to a judge why the "agreement" is defective.

It would be no good the OP reeling off a printed version of a CAG thread; and then when questioned by the Claimants solicitors, are unable to answer as they haven't understood what they've said.

 

If you read through the **won** threads, those that have won are those that have fully prepared their case and know the relevant Acts inside out.

[Fangio of the nineties]

Thanks snooper,,, that's the mst helpful thread i've seen !

 

FOTN

[supasnooper]

Thanks snooper,,, that's the mst helpful thread i've seen !

 

FOTN

 

 

steven4064 certainly knows his onions on this subject.

 

I always refer to this thread for a refresher.

[Muffintop]

Looks like standard tear off slip copy of a microfiche... keep plugging away to take it to get them to disclose prior to any court case push them to see who bottles first, if they produce original then thats it and you will have to continue paying, put the payments in another account in case you have too. have you sent for a sar request yet?? subbing 2u, take a look at mine you will see my tear off slip similiar to yours, terms and conds in 90s charged around 35 per not paying on time etc not 12.00 so thats one discrepancy they have tried to trick you with. my thread muffintop v mbna:oops:

[toxicdebt]

Ive done loads of reading over the last few months and Steven's thread is a great reference.

 

But I am still at a loss as to whether the prescribed terms have to be on the same side of the CCA if there is no link to the reverse. (point 6 of the original post in this thread).

 

If anyone knows the answer please do enlighten us.

[web2dude]

For info, Aegis are an outsourced chasing company based in India. They are basically employed to call you and encourage you to pay. Insist on written correspondence only. If they continue to hassle you, write MBNA a complaint letter - there is a model letter in the letter list on the forum. Best of luck

[MisterV]

After the usual round of letters, phone calls and postcards i have now been contacted by phone with an offer of full and final settlement of approx 40% of the outstanding amount. Whether it says F & F on the letter is another matter. I made that clear it was the only way i would be prepared to accept it.

 

Im tempted to accept this offer (can perhaps just afford it) but as ive read on other threads, they get as little as 10 or 12p in the £ if they sell on to a debt collexction agency.

 

My question is - does anyone have any experience of negotiating a settlement like this?

Whats the minimum they will accept % wise?

 

Thanks in anticipation.

 

Does anybody have any experience of threats of charging orders against property?. Although these debts are classed as unsecured, charging orders are apparently on the increase and being used as a threat, and can be obtained on credit card debts.

 

Interested to hear your comments and experiences.

[summerbreeze]

Hi MisterV .. any sign of your letter ?

[supasnooper]

Hi there,

 

Yes I have and they are not pleasant to deal with.

 

Always worth a read of these links on what they are,together with pointers on how to oppose them -

 

National Debtline England & Wales | Debt Advice | Factsheet 15 Charging Orders In The County Court

 

Debt Factsheets - Charging orders in the county court

 

Charging orders in the County Court

 

Charging Order

[MisterV]

Hi all,

 

I have recieved court forms from Optima Legal acting for MBNA through Northampton Court and I intend to defend the claim as i believe my CCA is invalid.

 

Sending off the form todau allowing me more time to prepare my defence (will need help here folks, please) and am reading other threads in this section.

 

I have a question....

 

Does a default notice have to be served before court action can take place?

 

All I seem to have been sent is "Notice of arrears letters"

 

and a letter headed "Important Default Notification" that says...As your account is £*** in arrears, failure to bring your account up to date will result in the eventual termination of the agreement and the registration of a default at the credit reference agencies. A default will register on your credit file for the next six years.

 

Only other letters ive had are from Optima threatining legal action.

 

Your thoughts much appreciated.

[42man]

OK...may I ask what the Particulars Of The Claim are please ? but don't be sepcific with the amounts....first thing is to send them a CPR (Civil Procedure Rule request...also can you photo/scan the default notice they sent you and post up here ? leave the dates on but delete any personal info like ref numbers...

[MisterV]

Thanks...

 

Particulars of claim are

 

"The claimants claimis in respect of a credit agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 whereby the claimant provided the defendant with a credit card and in return the defendant agreed to pay at least the minimum payment given in the statement. A default notice was served on the defendant which expired on 30/05/2009. The defendant has failed to comply with this. The claimants claim of £***** is the sum owed plus accured interest as at 30/05/09. Demand for payment has been made, however the sum due remains outstanding".

 

Send the CPR 31.14?

 

Will scan and post default ASAP

 

Thanks, link to default letter...

 

http://i370.photobucket.com/albums/oo147/martpammy/scan0001-5.jpg

[42man]

Yes do the send the CPR31.14 asap, make sure it is in line with the Particulars Of The Claim - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/185051-claim-form-received-today.html#post1992524 - make sure you stick to the deadlines though...

 

Did you see this thread also - http://consumeractiongroup.co.uk/resources/templates-library/86-debt-collectors/609-mbna-agreementsapplication-forms

[MisterV]

Wonder if you could have a look at the default letter (link above). Would appreciate any comments.

 

Will send a CPR request as suggested but I am not entirely certain what to ask for. I have typed above the Particulars of Claim, but it doesnt seem to mention any specific documents other than the default. Should I ask for all documents - CCA, default etc. ?

 

Thanks, couldnt do this without the support.

[AndyOrch]

Wonder if you could have a look at the default letter (link above). Would appreciate any comments.What date is on the DN does 30th May allow 14 days plus service?

 

Will send a CPR request as suggested but I am not entirely certain what to ask for. I have typed above the Particulars of Claim, but it doesnt seem to mention any specific documents other than the default. Should I ask for all documents - CCA, default etc. ?

 

Thanks, couldnt do this without the support.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[NitrousOxide]

No mention of the CCA agreement in the POC, as has been advised send the CPR letter.

[MisterV]

ok, I will ask for all documentation. Wonder why it doesnt mention the CCA in the POC?

 

What is 14 days plus service? Sorry to ask all these questions, picking this up as fast as I can!!

[AndyOrch]

ok, I will ask for all documentation. Wonder why it doesnt mention the CCA in the POC?

 

It does "The claimants claimis in respect of a credit agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974"

What is 14 days plus service? Sorry to ask all these questions, picking this up as fast as I can!!

 

You have blanked out the date of the DN.A DN to be valid must allow 14 days for you to rectify the breach including postage time say 3/4 days at todays rate.So if the DN is dated after the 12th May it does not allow the perscribed period.

 

 

Regards

 

Andy

[MisterV]

Date says 12th May, is it the date at the top of the letter?

[NitrousOxide]

Sorry I should have been a bit more specific.

Usually they have the agreement number if the CCA is mentioned, it's the number that's missing.

As the action is founded on the agreeent they need to provide it.

[AndyOrch]

Date says 12th May, is it the date at the top of the letter?

 

DN is valid then proceed:cool:

 

Regards

 

Andy

[MisterV]

Thanks folks, letters going off tomorrow. Will let you know what happens

[summerbreeze]

12th May was a tuesday

MBNA often use 2nd class or UK mail

If the DN was sent 2nd class there are not 14 clear days to remedy.

 

They may say they sent via 1st class post but can they prove it ?