Fox V Citi SAR

[silverfox1961]

hope you are feeling better:)

 

SAM:pLOWELL DETESTER

 

Not really but better than I was over the weekend.

Thanks for asking

[silverfox1961]

Afternoon all,

 

An update for you.

 

I sent Citi a LBA on 1st July and got a letter back today.

 

It states that enclosed is copies of the account notes which record instances of manual intervention has occurred on the account. The attached sheet has 5 lines showing the latest info from the date I sent then the SAR to the latest letter. Absolutely nothing from when the account was opened in 2002.

 

A statement at the bottom of the intervention notes state," All Customer Service Notes Prior To This Date purged From System"

 

I think this means they have no evidence of:

 

screenshots

 

NOA

 

Termination letter

 

DN

 

T's & C's

 

agreement.

 

They also go on to say that all the other information requested is not covered under the Data Protection Act 1998.

 

I've already complained to the Information Commissioner.

 

Now, as they will be unable to prove any debt exists, I could now go back to Cabot( who aren't collecting at the moment) and demand they go forth.

I might even demand my money back. Cabot will never be able to prove they had the right to be collecting.

 

Anybody got any ideas for me (pretty please)

 

fox

[Enron]

I did hear that all stuff was purged prior to mid-2006, whether that is correct or not i'll leave upto you as you have the sheets there.

 

The benefit of having that sheet though is that you can prove the charges as being an automatic process, because no entry appears on the sheet relating to penalty charges.

 

But then again penalty charges being an automated process is industry standard.

[mkb]

Subbing cos I'm about to go down the same road

[silverfox1961]

So, Having thought about this for a few hours, I still have no good idea what to do next:confused:

 

Citi are saying they don't have to supply some of the bits i requested because they don't come under the DPA. I think they really mean they haven't got them so how can I get them to reveal the truth?

 

My head hurts

[lexis200]

Hang on - all customer service notes purged? But aren't they pretty recent? Are notes not included in the 6 year limit?

 

Also, I'd have to say that DN's/Termination letters/Agreements are pretty relevant to you and should be included in the SAR!

[silverfox1961]

Hi Lexis, sorry it's taken time to get back. Bloody Crohns

 

My thoughts entirely. If Citi have purged all documents, how could they prove they sent me a default or termination therefore rendering any assignment to a DCA unlawful. No proof of a Notice of Assignment either.

 

I will be writing to Cabot as soon as my brain works properly. I'll update that thread as soon as I have something to add.

 

I will also be updating the information commissioner as well.

 

fox

[mysticpols06]

hey fox Hows u? Just catching up on your thread hunny - Bit of a brain ache this one - On one hand how they can prove what they haven't got but on the other how can you prove they haven't got the other stuff you want if they won't get it you? think i need to read again after sleep, when brain not in shock at thought of 7 weeks (yep 7 weeks this year) with kids running round doh! Hope you well. Mpols x

[lexis200]

7 weeks???

 

You have my sincere condolences;). I'm not a happy bunny at the thought of 5 weeks:eek:

[silverfox1961]

How I love the fact my kids are all growed up now and that I can send the grand kids back

 

Nice to see you're still around Mpols

[silverfox1961]

Heylo all,

 

Interesting occurrence last week.

 

I got a reply to my complaint to Citi and of course they rejected it:rolleyes: but in their letter, they go on to say that they don't routinely send out Notices of Assignment.

That in itself wouldn't be too remarkable except a couple of weeks earlier I wrote to Cabot disputing their right to be collecting and they sent me back a letter with "representation of letter sent xxxx" This letter was a Notice of Assignment on Citi headed notepaper.

 

If Citi don't send out NOA's then where did this letter appear from?

 

Now Cabot wouldn't stoop so low as to forge this letter would they ??

 

More ammunition for later

 

fox

[mysticpols06]

HAhahaha he hehehe haha heeeeehahh erm.....

Silly billy's!

Hugs, Mpols x

[Enron]

Funny you should say that as 1st Credit effectively created a "Notice Of Assignment" purporting to be from Citi, there were lots of tell tell give aways wrong registered company address, copyright details excluded, address for Citi's loan business when it was a credit card account - including the fact that it was sent in a 1st Credit Reigate return address envelope.

 

I'm not sure on the specifics and legalities of a creditor having to inform a debtor of the sale of the account with a "Notice Of Assignment" but I can concur that Citi certainly aren't sending them out.

 

The legislation is the Law Of Properties Act (1925 from memory), it might be sold old as to not outline who should be sending the Notice Of Assignment, but certainly worth looking into, and I would believe that the original creditor would have to do this.

[silverfox1961]

Hi Enron.

I have looked at LoPA 1925 and it's section 136 and it does say that before an account can be assigned, the debtor needs to be informed but the language used is a little wishy washy into who. I read it as the OC has to do it.

The bit that strikes me is LoPA1925s196(4) A NOA has to be sent by registered (recorded) delivery. If Citi don't send NOA's out, they could never prove that the assignment was perfected.

 

 

fox

[42man]

Spot on Foxy (keep that as evidence) I wonder if/how they securitise ?...!! Not sure if you spotted this thread too - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/170251-forged-letterheads-serious-offence.html and this makes interesting reading - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/120057-cabot-test-case-2.html#post2384353

[silverfox1961]

Thanks for the links 42man. I had seen the first one but not the second so have subbed to both.

I am going to write back to Citi to see if they can hang themselves further. I have also SAR'd Cabot. If Cabot show that no NOA came from them and Citi have WRITTEN that thay don't send out NOA's then I will have them by the receptacles

Of course I won't be telling either party that I'm writing to the other party:D

[Enron]

Think you need clarification on this point from someone with sound legal knowledge.

 

The legislation maybe vague enough to not be specific, but you would imagine the original creditor would have to issue the notice of assignment, and not have it come from a third party purporting to be the original creditor.

 

I did notice earlier that a user we identified as being a Citi employee has been looking at this thread.

[Bosund]

Hi Foxy,

 

Just subbing...

 

Bosun.

[silverfox1961]

Morning folks,

First, a quick recap.

 

SAR to Citi March 2009

All they sent back were statements.

Letter ping pong

They refuse to send me anything else as they say it's not covered under the DPA so I complained.

Complaint rejected (surprise, surprise)

Complained to ICO July 2009. NO response as yet. Emailing today.

Off to FOS we go. Complained October 2009.

 

Had a phone call from the FOS on Thursday and my case is now with an adjudicator. Spent a good 20 minutes going through everything. He (the adjudicator) was quite surprised that Citi don't issue NOA's.

He also informed me that Citi (as an american company on British soil) follow different rules which makes the job of the FOS quite difficult. He didn't go into great detail though.

 

I did inform him that Cabot have stated (in writing) that Citi have supplied them account notes but Citi have said to me, they don't have account notes so who is lying? We'll see waht comes back on that one.

 

Considering I complained to the FOS in October 09 and it's only February now, that's a quick response from the FOS.

 

Not much of an update but I thought it right to keep you up to date.

 

Later Peeps:smile:

 

fox

[Bosund]

HI,

 

Find it disturbing that Citi do not have to follow the same rules in the UK as other Financial Establishments trading in the UK.

 

I was under the impression that anyone licensed by the OFT to trade in Financial Instruments e.g. Credit, (Cards, Loans, etc), were not allowed to pick and chose what regulations they would abide by, or am missing the point somewhere?

 

Regards,

 

Bosun.

[Enron]

They're a bank, so if something is not in their own interest....... the won't do it........ they all do this to varying degrees.

[the_shadow]

I had the same spiel from the fOS in regards MBNA and a complaint I raised... what you need to remember is that FOS are not really over concerned about the legalities, they strive to seek a compromise between the two parties and possibly if really pushed uphold a minor complaint against a bank/financial institute.

 

In my case, breaches of the banking code / CCA / Oft debt collection guidelines were brushed aside with a "well thats the way they work" :-/ followed by "its difficult for MBNA as they have two sets of rules to follow"

 

You really couldnt make it up.. such an impotent ombudsman in reality.

 

S.

[MARTIN3030]

"He also informed me that Citi (as an american company on British soil) follow different rules which makes the job of the fos quite difficult. He didn't go into great detail though."

 

They are regulated by the FSA and therefore should be fully compliant to UK law and regulatory controls and codes of practice.

What the hell are the FOS on ?

I would have asked them to put this in writing.

[MARTIN3030]

Maybe the FOS should be reminded ;

 

Citifinancial Europe FSA licensing details;

 

 

Basic details for:

 

204598 - CitiFinancial Europe Plc

 

Current status: Authorised Effective Date: 01/12/2001 Tied Agent:

Undertakes Insurance Mediation: Y Registered under Money Laundering Regulations:

Address: Citigroup Centre

Canada Square

London

E14 5LB

Phone:

Fax:

Email:

Website:

44 020 7508 7706

44 020 8636 3926

Rekha.gomes@citi.com

CitiFinancial - Citibank

Notices: Unable to hold client money.

[MARTIN3030]

Just some of their CCA licences;

 

 

Licence / Application / Validation Order NoLicensee / Applicant NameLicence StatusPPB Postcode 0000984CIT Commercial (UK) LimitedCurrentRG12 1AA 0001486Citibank N.ACurrentE14 5LB 0079310Citifinancial Europe PlcCurrentE14 5LB 0223212Quilter & Co. LimitedCurrentEC3A 8BB 0410357Egg Banking PlcCurrentEC4R 0HH 0474589Egg Financial Products LimitedLapsed on 03/10/2009E14 5LB 0482552Citibank International PlcCurrentE14 5LB 0494063Diners Club UK LimitedCurrentE14 5LB 0494565Egg Financial Intermediation LimitedCurrentE14 5LB 0524736Cit Vendor Finance (UK) LimitedCurrentRG12 1AA