issues with my employers

[SharpmanTF1]

Have a read thru this link.

 

it may help

 

Holiday entitlements: the basics : Directgov - Employment

[elpulpo]

Problem is this was unpaid leave.

Seemingly not part of his statutory entitlement.

I'm struggling to find rules that apply to this situation.

[mariefab]

Me too elpulpo.

Do you suppose that, in the absence of any rules to the contrary, the normal rules would apply?

 

popeye

A freind asked for unpaid leave and was told if certain jobs were done it was ok,he asked 6 weeks before his holiday.

Is the employer denying that this original agreement took place?

 

If it had been paid holiday entitlement the employer would have needed to give two weeks notice of refusal.

 

Taking your holiday : Directgov - Employment

 

I can only suggest that your friend prints off the link above and takes it to the disciplinary. Make the employer prove whether or not it applies to unpaid holiday.

[elpulpo]

It's a tough one, Mariefab.

I mean, it's utterly unreasonable of the employer, having agreed to the leave, to then deny it at short notice.

 

As you say, do the normal rules apply, even though this was unpaid, not statutory leave?

I think if they had Statutory Employment Rights they might be in a strong position, as I think an ET might well agree that the Employer was being very unreasonable.

 

As you say, the Employee should take the Stat rules to the Disciplinary.

They should also work out how much it would have cost them had they cancelled their holiday, and explain that they would have held the employer liable for their loss.

[popeye1]

Thank you all,he has now had a letter to go to a disciplinary meeting this week,should he have more notice [letter arrived tuesday].The letter is in a supervisors name who did not write it,the person who is going to chair the meeting is the same manager who he has delt with [verbal he [ manager ] was asked if my friend could take a months holiday about 6/8 weeks and then written formal ,with proof ,5 weeks before hols] He did not take a month just the 2 weeks holiday.

[elpulpo]

So your friend has written proof that the manager agreed to this?

Does your friend have a written statement of the terms and conditions of his employment?

[popeye1]

They never reply to holiday forms ,he did chase the sec to get some reply but never got any thing.He is bringing in the contract tomo.Have been looking at acas all night ,would this be Gross missconduct or just missconduct

[popeye1]

The sec chased the manager who should have said yes/no to the holiday also is going to do the dis meeting ,conflict of intrest?

[elpulpo]

I have to be honest and say, IMO, they may well consider it to be gross misconduct.

If they were reasonable people, they would have acted reasonably in the first place.

So, what positive affirmation that he could take the holiday did he recieve in the first place?

The people alleged to have been involved in giving consent to the leave shouldn't be involved in the disciplinary.

Has your friend thought of putting in a grievance against whoever changed their mind(s)?

[teaboy2]

I have to be honest and say, IMO, they may well consider it to be gross misconduct.

If they were reasonable people, they would have acted reasonably in the first place.

So, what positive affirmation that he could take the holiday did he recieve in the first place?

The people alleged to have been involved in giving consent to the leave shouldn't be involved in the disciplinary.

Has your friend thought of putting in a grievance against whoever changed their mind(s)?

 

Agreed there is a massive conflict of interest there if its the same person that agreed to allow the unpaid leave that is doing the disiplinary. Put in a grievance as elpulpo states, and also bear in maind that if he his dismissed as a result of the disciplinary by the very person that gave hime consent to the unpaid leave originally then you would have a case for unfair dismissal as a result of the confilct of interest. Put it this way his manger knows he agreed to the unpaid leave and is now in the process of sacking him for taking the leave that was already agreed when unreasonable notice of agreed leave being cancelled was given.

[honeybee13]

Hello. I hope I'm not hijacking this thread, but we have a similar problem. If the holiday is four working weeks, does the employer have to give 4 weeks' notice of wanting it cancelled, or is it one calendar month from the start date of the holiday please?

 

I hope your friend gets a good outcome for this, popeye.

[elpulpo]

I reckon it's 4 working weeks, honeybee13.

The moot point here, for which I can't find an answer either in Statute or precedent, is what happens when the employer initially says yes, but then changes their mind?

Is it breach of contract?

Perhaps not of written terms, but they've agreed to something, then reneged.

[honeybee13]

Thank you Elpulpo.

 

I don't know the answer to your question about an employer who changes their mind after having agreed to a holiday, sorry.

[elpulpo]

Is your employer wanting you to cancel your holiday?

[popeye1]

Hi Honeybee13 no probs, as elpulpo says 1 week notice for 1 week hols and 2 for 2 and so on.Thats how i read it on the Directgov site which i think is Employment Law, unless your contract differs.

It also does not mention as to weather unpaid or paid holiday so i might apply it tomo.Tried to phone higher manager a few times but it keeps going to a/phone,left a little message to ring back about meeting.

Good luck with yours Honeybee

[popeye1]

When should he put in a grievance before the meeting or after.So silly realy as we all change over to the new firm who have won the contract in a couple of weeks

[elpulpo]

Get the grievance in asap.

[teaboy2]

When should he put in a grievance before the meeting or after.So silly realy as we all change over to the new firm who have won the contract in a couple of weeks

 

the grievance will still have to be dealt with. when a company takes over from an another, they not only take over the former companies committment to its customers but also all contractual committments and liabilities including employment grievances.

[popeye1]

It would not be good to go over with a grievance as he is starting anew not tupe.How about the result of the meeting,

[popeye1]

The meet is tomo so not enough time to put in a greiv but i will speak to my friend early tomo,any more help much appriciated and thanks to all of you for help recieved so far

[teaboy2]

you can put in a grievance at any time. i think your friend should state when he first walks to the meeting that he intends to enter a grievance against the manger on the grounds of giving unreasonable notice of cancellation of agreed unpaid leave, and the fact that he is doing the disciplinary when he was the one that original agreed to the unpaid leave is a clear conflict of interest and any action taken against your friend as a result of the meeting would be both unreasonable and unfair.

 

that will make it clear to them where your friend stands and hopefully puts the employer on to the back foot. either way it will certainly give them something to think about i.e can they afford to get this wrong. And as others have pointed out, since their is no clear reference to employee rights regarding notice of cancellation of unpaid leave then its reasonable to assume the same notice for normal holiday entitlment applies. It is they that would have to prove that it doesn't and a simple "well thats for accured holiday entitlement" is not enough.

Edited December 17, 2009 by teaboy2

[elpulpo]

He really needs someone to accompany him. This lot are not to be trusted.

Are you his co-worker?

Teaboy's angle on this was right. Your friend needs to come out of his corner fighting, give 'em something to worry about.

PLEASE tell him to remain calm though.

He won't get anywhere if he loses his rag with them.

[popeye1]

Thanks all but the meeting was cancelled do to bad weather.

Time is short now as we change in jan to new company so i donot realy know what they will do.We are at work upto and after christmas so they still have time to arrange a meeting which i believe should take place to try and resolve this before we move over.Idid phone the next higher manager twice, left a message but no reply.I am a co-worker and i will advise about the grevance point.Many thanks

[popeye1]

Never got another meeting ,after all the worry they caused and now he has moved to the new company .So thanks for every ones help ,it gave us confidence which was conveyed across to upper management.Many thanks to all

[popeye1]

If you tupe from company A to company B and you are owed holiday from A does A pay the holiday money to you when you change/leave A to tupe over to B ,many thanks for any replies