Arrow Global MBNA debt- **1st round - WON** **Seconds out! Round 2!!!**

[summerbreeze]

On the "agreement" at the top left hand corner - outside of the box is a signature - there is nothing to say what it is or why its' there - they claim that is the signature by MBNA

 

Is the sig quite small, squiggly and in bold ? ...if so I have seen something similar on another MBNA ' agreement' posted on CAG [ in top left hand corner and seemingly just stamped there for no reason ...]

 

I will try to track down the one I am thinking of

[I've got no money]

Is the sig quite small, squiggly and in bold ? ...if so I have seen something similar on another MBNA ' agreement' posted on CAG [ in top left hand corner and seemingly just stamped there for no reason ...]

 

I will try to track down the one I am thinking of

 

It doesn't appear to be stamped - it just looks like a signature...as you say there is nothing on it which says what it is or why its' there...

[I've got no money]

I spoke to the other side today - they told me that they don't have an original copy of the "agreement" all they have is a copy...because they don't keep the originals.

 

CPR 31.3 gives a right to inspect unless the document is no longer in the control of the party who disclosed it

 

I need to think carefully about this - anybody got any thoughts/comments

[r&b]

what abt CPR 16 PD 7.3(1)... this may be of use :

Cosalt V MBNA - The Consumer Forums

[questioning]

Hi IGNM,

I don't know how old this agreement would be or when it ended,

what about looking at the reasons why they should keep certain docs, like...

The Money Laundering Regulations 1993, 2003 and 2007 which state that key documents (such as agreements) must be kept until 5 years "after the business relationship" ends.

 

Schedule 18 of the Finance Act 1998 (paragraph 21), which says docs should be kept for six years.

 

The 2007 money laundering regs now state that transactional information can be destroyed five years after the individual transaction - but that key documents (such as agreements) must still be retained until five years after the business relationship ends.-

 

Sections 221 and 222 of the Companies Act 1985, say that a public company is required to maintain records for a period of six years (section 222(5)(b)

 

the Data Protection Act.....

Losing or destroying personal data i believe is in itself a breach of the Seventh Principle of the Data Protection Act 1998.

Which states ;

Appropriate technical and organisation measures shall be taken against the unauthorised or unlawful processing of personal data and against accidental loss or destruction of, or damage to, personal data.

 

The above are bits and pieces that i have picked up here on CAG, (sorry, I don't know who i copied them from, I'd say if I did, apologies to whoever posted them in the first place )

I seem to remember a thread where there was some success from this "money laundering regs" argument, I've also seen a thread where the DJ said it was perfectly acceptable for these banking organisations to dispose of the agreements. Again its all down to the DJ lottery I think, along with how well you argue your case.

 

This post here ...... http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-2069832.html in joan of arcs thread shows an account of her recent case where the issue of copy docs came into play in the court room. The whole thread is here..

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legal-issues/157069-court-claim-lloyds-tsb.html.

Edited April 29, 2009 by questioning

[broken arrow]

I spoke to the other side today - they told me that they don't have an original copy of the "agreement" all they have is a copy...because they don't keep the originals.

 

CPR 31.3 gives a right to inspect unless the document is no longer in the control of the party who disclosed it

 

I need to think carefully about this - anybody got any thoughts/comments

 

Hi IGNM

So they copy the original document, and then destroy the original, why not just keep the original?

[I've got no money]

Hi IGNM

So they copy the original document, and then destroy the original, why not just keep the original?

 

I think that they scan them into an electronic system and save on storage space...well that's the official version...

Edited April 29, 2009 by I've got no money

[broken arrow]

I think that they scan them into an electronic system and save on storage space...

 

I know Morgan stanley and Goldfish store them on microfische, but only seem to scan the first page, so if T and C,s on the back their a bit stuffed.

[broken arrow]

I guess they thought it would save a bit of money,oops.

[citizenB]

Is the sig quite small, squiggly and in bold ? ...if so I have seen something similar on another MBNA ' agreement' posted on CAG [ in top left hand corner and seemingly just stamped there for no reason ...]

 

I will try to track down the one I am thinking of

 

 

Heres one SB

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-2130884.html

 

and another

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-2130932.html

 

and another

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-2130949.html

 

They are so similar, I would say that it is a stamp

[I've got no money]

I know Morgan stanley and Goldfish store them on microfische, but only seem to scan the first page, so if T and C,s on the back their a bit stuffed.

 

These cowboys have produced two pages but there doesn't appear to be anything connecting the two...

[Docman]

If they can't produce the original and can only come up with a scanned copy, then you should ask for a copy of their scanning protocols.

 

I think somewhere there are data protection regulations that set out what must be done by a company wanting to rely on elecronic copies in court procedings. Any one know what these are?

[I've got no money]

I guess they thought it would save a bit of money,oops.

 

I've also discovered that the case is listed in front of one the more technical DJ's - I couldn't have got a better Judge if I'd tried - I am now really looking forward to next Tuesday.

 

I must remember to do my costs schedule...

[I've got no money]

If they can't produce the original and can only come up with a scanned copy, then you should ask for a copy of their scanning protocols.

 

I think somewhere there are data protection regulations that set out what must be done by a company wanting to rely on elecronic copies in court procedings. Any one know what these are?

 

I'd thought about that and as they're gonna claim, I think, that the prescribed terms were on the back - its' the only thing that logically they can do - I'm gonna ask for a witness statement from the person who scanned it in.

 

There's also a signature on the front page - at the top right hand corner outside of the box - adjacent to it is a date but that's all - the date is the 24th of January - in the claim form they've pleaded the agreement as starting on the 29th of January. They're now saying that the signature was execution on behalf of MBNA - nothing on the form says that - I'm gonna ask for a witness statement from the person who signed it...

[citizenB]

Docman, I am trying to track down postings by BRW on this subject, I will post them up as soon as I find em.

[r&b]

Docman, I am trying to track down postings by BRW on this subject, I will post them up as soon as I find em.

 

was it the ones above from cosalt v mbna u were thinkin of?

[citizenB]

Docman, I am trying to track down postings by BRW on this subject, I will post them up as soon as I find em.

 

was it the ones above from cosalt v mbna u were thinkin of?

 

 

Those are the ones.. thanks I will go and find a link.

 

 

Meanwhile, this is an interesting read by alanalana - Documents and the Civil Evidence Act

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/162535-documents-court-civil-evidence.html

[r&b]

post # 29 above

[citizenB]

Here you go IGNM Words of wisdom from BRW

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-1843012.html

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-1843995.html

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-1845465.html

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-1845509.html

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-1845610.html

 

That should keep you busy for a little while

[citizenB]

post # 29 above

 

 

Aha, that will teach me to skp read wont it. Thanks r&b

[supasnooper]

You may also wish to peruse - BIP 0008 The Legal Admissibility of information stored on Electronic Document Management Systems

 

Attached below

BIP 0008 The Legal Admissibility of information stored on Electronic Document Management Systems.doc

[Docman]

You just beat me to it, Supa. That's the document I was thinking about. Next question is where in the Civil Procedure Rules does it lay down what a judge has to determine/order?

[I've got no money]

MBNA T & C??? picture by RichPrice - Photobucket

 

The piece of paper that has the alleged prescribed conditions on

[I've got no money]

MBNACAG picture by RichPrice - Photobucket

 

The alleged agreement with my signature on

 

 

Yes - guys I know that it identifies me but if the other side were in the slightest bit interested they'd have worked out who I am by now anyway...

[summerbreeze]

So where are the conditions mentioned in the exception clause in the minimum payment term ... hard to read but looks like 3.5 and 3.6

 

and where is condition 13.1 mentioned in the interest charged term ?

 

These are 2 of the prescribed terms arent they ?