Lloyds TSB-judge has granted stay incorrectly-Help

[pantheman]

Some time ago my daughter was lucky enough to win her case against Lloyds TSB when they requested a stay in court. This was on a technicality as they had failed to lodge their paperwork correctly.

Since then Lloyds have made her life a misery and we are now back in the court system against them and the case is rather complicated. In brief we are claiming that they took a payment of over £450 (my cheque) that was given to them on the understanding they would close her account. They took the money, but refused to close the account. Prior to this they were instructed twice in writting to cancel ALL d/d and s/o. When they recieved the above money they paid out over £150 to their own credit card, in two payments, putting her back into overdraft again with all the associated charges. They would still not close the account charging her £10 per month for the account. We changed the account type so there was no monthly charges. After April 07 the statements stopped coming it seems off their own back they then closed the account still owing her money.

Put the papers into the courts with much more detail than above, Lloyds issued a standard defence against "Bank Charges", they then applied for a stay. We objected to the courts staying this case as it was nothing to do with the OFT test case. the Judges direction arrived to day and he has granted a stay, incorrectly in my opinion, re the test case.

Can anyone tell me what we do now???

[yourbank]

Can you explain why it is incorrect? The bank have used what is called the Rght of set off with regards to the £450.

[flyingdoc]

right of set off my bottom.

 

From what the OP says the he made the payment on the understanding (which the bank apparently agreed to) that they would close the account.

 

They took the money and then did not close the account.

 

They play fast and loose with the rules, make promises that they have no intention of keeping and because they hold all the cards get away with pleasing themselves.

 

IF I ever come across a good banker I will shoot him before he goes bad.

[pantheman]

Can you explain why it is incorrect? The bank have used what is called the Rght of set off with regards to the £450.

Our letter layed out how we came to the amount offered and said "if this is acceptable" please confirm in writting and close the account. They took the money, never confirmed if it was or was not acceptable and when we questioned about the account closure refused to close it without explanation.

After this 62 letters went between us and Lloyds TSB and they still did not answer why the account could not be closed but then suddenly closed it.

The last letter said to the effect "we are sorry you feel the need to take this matter to the county court and therefore will await the ruling from the court"

[yourbank]

right of set off my bottom.

 

From what the OP says the he made the payment on the understanding (which the bank apparently agreed to) that they would close the account.

 

They took the money and then did not close the account.

 

They play fast and loose with the rules, make promises that they have no intention of keeping and because they hold all the cards get away with pleasing themselves.

 

IF I ever come across a good banker I will shoot him before he goes bad.

 

What was the legal basis of your claim because I still am not getting this one? Have you asked for a SAR?

Did you get anything in writing prior to paying the money into the account?

[pantheman]

That they took the money from us under false pretences and payed out from the same after being told on 2 occasions to cancel all d/d & s/o, this put her back into and overdraft situation that they then withdrew (the overdraft) and continued to then add more charges to the account putting her futher into the red. We actualy whent to the branch and refused to leave until they sorted the situation, all they would do was change the account o one without a fee attached.

We never got anything in writting from them prior to sending the money nor have we requested a subject access request.

[BankFodder]

You will have to complete a form N244 asking for the stay to be lifted.

It is quite correct that if the bank are properly informed as to a supervening purpose of a particular payment in then they are not entitled to enjoy their right of set-off.

They would be obliged to inform you that they did not accept the basis upon which you intended to pay the money in.

[yourbank]

What is the legal case law that you are using? I still don't get that. Full and Final Settlement requires the fact that the bank have agreed to your proposal.

[pantheman]

What is the legal case law that you are using? I still don't get that. Full and Final Settlement requires the fact that the bank have agreed to your proposal.

Sorry have been away from my desk since last night.

Your remarks are making me think that I have either done everthing the wrong way or I cannot ask the court to rule on this.

The bank were sent a payment with conditions under which the payment was being made, one of these was to close the account. The bank ignored the conditions, never acknowledged reciept of the cheque but cashed it all the same & credited it to her account. They then paid out about £180 of the £462 to a credit card company in direct contradiction to my daughters two lots of written instruction to cancel all DD & SO. In addition to this they carried on charging an account charge of £10 per month, refusing then to close the account. three days before her court award arrived at her account-contra to court orders. They removed her overdraft facility causing her to loose £325 of her award straight away.

I cannot beleive that no matter who it is bank, business or private individual can operate in such a way and then refuse to rectify the numerous situations and the client(my daughter) has no recourse via the legal system.

Please dont say we have no case.

[pantheman]

You will have to complete a form N244 asking for the stay to be lifted.

It is quite correct that if the bank are properly informed as to a supervening purpose of a particular payment in then they are not entitled to enjoy their right of set-off.

They would be obliged to inform you that they did not accept the basis upon which you intended to pay the money in.

Thanks BankFodder, this is what I thought. I have never heard the term "set off". Whats that?

[yourbank]

Sorry have been away from my desk since last night.

Your remarks are making me think that I have either done everthing the wrong way or I cannot ask the court to rule on this.

The bank were sent a payment with conditions under which the payment was being made, one of these was to close the account. The bank ignored the conditions, never acknowledged reciept of the cheque but cashed it all the same & credited it to her account. They then paid out about £180 of the £462 to a credit card company in direct contradiction to my daughters two lots of written instruction to cancel all DD & SO. In addition to this they carried on charging an account charge of £10 per month, refusing then to close the account. three days before her court award arrived at her account-contra to court orders. They removed her overdraft facility causing her to loose £325 of her award straight away.

I cannot beleive that no matter who it is bank, business or private individual can operate in such a way and then refuse to rectify the numerous situations and the client(my daughter) has no recourse via the legal system.

Please dont say we have no case.

 

I think we are talking about full and final settlements of an account, right? Was there an overdraft on that account?

banking: firms' right of 'set off'

The above is the right of set off.

[pantheman]

I think we are talking about full and final settlements of an account, right? Was there an overdraft on that account?

banking: firms' right of 'set off'

The above is the right of set off.

Yes the account was overdrawn but she had an agreed overdraft and it was this I was paying off to close the account as we realised it was silly to leave it open and costing an additional £10 per month for nothing. She was not over her overdraft limit.

Re the set-off. it seems we may have a problem here as the two paymnets were to Lloyds credit card, however. My daughter was going through a divorce, hubby had left her with what was considered "joint" debts. Her solicitor had contacted Lloyds TSB visa and they had agreed to freeze the debt pending the divorce settlement. This money, aprox £6000 has been with her solicitor since November 2007 pending the conclusion of her legal aid Bill of Cost. this is in the very final stages now.

No notification was made by the bank that they were intending to set-off her visa card debt with the money paid to them.

[yourbank]

Was it a joint account? The bank do not tell you about the right of set off because if you knew prior to it, then you might take all the money out beforehand.

Was the credit cards in her name only?

[pantheman]

Was it a joint account? The bank do not tell you about the right of set off because if you knew prior to it, then you might take all the money out beforehand.

Was the credit cards in her name only?

Both the bank account and her one credit card were in her name only. Her solicitor informed Lloyds Visa of the situation and requested they freeze the account pending the matrimonial settlement-they agreed to this.

I understand that the bank would not notify her that is was going to set-off money from the account to her credit card but would it not have to notify her that it had taken this action because none of the reams of correspondence mentions "set-off" it does some months after the event say that it is in the credit cards T&C's. They were asked for a copy of the T&C's but never produced them. I did speak to the local Lloyds manager about this and he said he had never heard of the card or bank T&C's mentioning this.

[yourbank]

Both the bank account and her one credit card were in her name only. Her solicitor informed Lloyds Visa of the situation and requested they freeze the account pending the matrimonial settlement-they agreed to this.

I understand that the bank would not notify her that is was going to set-off money from the account to her credit card but would it not have to notify her that it had taken this action because none of the reams of correspondence mentions "set-off" it does some months after the event say that it is in the credit cards T&C's. They were asked for a copy of the T&C's but never produced them. I did speak to the local Lloyds manager about this and he said he had never heard of the card or bank T&C's mentioning this.

 

They don't notify you before or after the event. However, did the lawyer get that from Lloyds in writing or verbally(there should be a record of that).

[pantheman]

They don't notify you before or after the event. However, did the lawyer get that from Lloyds in writing or verbally(there should be a record of that).

I think so, the card company have now put the debt out to an agency so the soliciitor has written to Lloyds visa about the agreement and lloyds are "examining the situation".

We have offered to drop our case if LLoyds write off the card debt and this is underconsideration as the amount a about the same however now this stay has been granted-wrongly in my opnion-this could change our bargining position.

[pantheman]

Just to bring the thread up to date I have written back to the court (on there advice) and explained in detail that my claim is not related to the OFT v The Banks with Justice Smith. Lloyds TSB have misuderstood the claim and lodged a defence that is irelevant to the claim and by doing so have mislead the court into granting a stay, on this basis will they remove it so the case can be heard.

Wait and see now.

[dazzasimm]

Just to bring the thread up to date I have written back to the court (on there advice) and explained in detail that my claim is not related to the OFT v The Banks with Justice Smith. Lloyds TSB have misuderstood the claim and lodged a defence that is irelevant to the claim and by doing so have mislead the court into granting a stay, on this basis will they remove it so the case can be heard.

Wait and see now.

Best of luck to you. I REALLY hate Lloyds TSB scumbags and they deserve all that they get:D

[pantheman]

Best of luck to you. I REALLY hate Lloyds TSB scumbags and they deserve all that they get:D

Thanks for the support, I agree with you. The treatment of my daughter by Lloyds TSB over the past 3/4 years is beyond belief by what used to be a member of a respected institution.

[pantheman]

I though I would update this thread as its, so far, good news.

I wrote to the court in March making it clear the Lloyds had submitted a standard type defence and on the basis of that the court had been mislead by Lloyds and threfore granted the stay Lloyds requested.

 

Last week I get.

 

Ref "General Form of Judgement or Order" dated 6th June 2009.

 

1 The stay is lifted

 

2 The defence is struck out as it is in standard form and does not address the issue of the case.

 

3 The defedants shall by *** file and serve a defence directed to the allegations in the claim.

 

I say well done to the Judge that reveiw the case, fair play at last.

[BankFodder]

I've just noticed how this thread is developing. Sorry, but I don't have much time for explanations but there may well be times when a full and final settlement may not be binding.

I have not read this thread in details so my comments don't necessarily apply here.

I expect that after the charges decision later this year, the banks will be unable to rely on their full and final settlements which they have achieved in the last 3 years.

I look forward to challenging them successfully.

 

One problem is that most bank staff are not lawyers. They come up with these words because they are usually effective and silencing their customers - who tend not to be lawyers either. It is another way of bullying customers and you shouldn't accept it when it happens to you.

[pantheman]

Just an update.

lloyds filed a corrected defence two days after the court deadline. I asked for a judgement by default and had no reply from the court.

We now have a court date for the 2nd October 2009.

It seems that of the 26 plus points we raised the defence have denied several including recieving certain correspondence that was sent to them either as originals or attached to other letters that refered to them.

They have even "denied" (their words) that my daughter accidently used her debit card during the period when it clearly shows on a statement-do they know what they are doing I ask.

Will update more as the situation develops.

Can anyone provide a copy of Lloyds TSB visa card T & C's either proving or disproving that they have the right to take money from a current account to settle the visa debt. Lloyds say it clearly mentioned in the T & C's.

[pantheman]

Need some help and guidance please-any opnions also welcome

 

Arrived at court on the 2nd October and was kept waiting for over 3 hours, case now put off untill a later date.

 

Lloyds sent a Barister from Birmingham and he gave us a copy of his "skeleton arguments" In this they claim that while they made deductions from my account after being instructed in writing not to, as these were to pay off my credit card balance (possible set off) I have not lost the money as it reduced my credit card balance.

I feel I have to concede this part of my claim as they have a point. Question1 Am I correct that the judge is likly to see it the same way?

 

The court order said all documents including witness statement, must be filed and served by the 1st September. Lloyds sent a 52 page witness statement to my old address (that I left and notified them about in February 2009).

This was sworn on the 18th September 09. and I recieved it via a third party and by luck on the 27th September 09, less than 5 days before the hearing.

Question 2 Can I ask for the witness statement to be excluded as it was dated 18 days after the court order deadline?

And finaly

If the answer to question 1 is yes, as i think it will be, is it better for me to accept this now, write to Lloyds saying I am willing to concede this part of my claim. This would reduce the claim to about £95.

If I also informed them that I had asked for the witness statement to be struck out for being served late however I will settle out of court for the £95. do you feel this is the best thing to do?

They may have wasted all this time and money defending a complicated claim of under £300 will they still want to send a barister on a 150 mile trip just for £95?

Answers on a postcard please. No better idea, answer on here would be very helpful. Thanks in advance

[pantheman]

My daughter has just recieved a letter from Lloyds TSB with a cheque in it for the remainder of our claim, they have settled out of court after two and a half years and fifty plus letters.

Yes we had to concede part of our claim but they were correct in the fact that they whilst they had taken money from her account and allocated it to her credit card against her instructions she had not lost that money and therefore it could not be claimed as a loss.

I make this post not to gloat (well maybe a little bit) but to bring hope to all that are getting back at the banks for the way they rip us, the customer, off.

Its now us 2 Lloyds 0.

If I can pass any advice onto others it would be to make sure all your paperwork is accurate and submitted in time and above all make sure Lloyds do the same. We won the first case because they failed to submit their documents and whilst the second case was settled out of court (before a second hearing) we told Lloyds that their witness statement was submitted 18 days late and therefore we had asked for this to be struck out.

Good luck to eveyone who has cases still pending, stay with it you can do it. Power to the people!!!