At least it will stop what happened to me some years ago I bought a car privately and had it parked outside my house, three days later woken at 7am by a Bobbie knocking on the door, He asked me if it was my car and why no tax disc on display? I told him just purchased and "tax applied for" as the note on the screen, I was told that I had to remove it from the highway until it had a current tax disc to display as I was commiting an offence of failure to display. He then went on to tell me there were three different offences could be committed with road tax. Failure to display, not having the vehicle tax and...not having the tax disc in a waterproof holder. Thank goodness those silly days will be gone soon.

As a small independent retailer I hope this will be enforced against all multinationals and independents irrespective of the products being sold. My wee shop has to work extremely hard to compete and what I make at Christmas helps us stay trading during the following "leaner" months. I am furious and frustrated when I see local multi national shops claiming 50% off and the same product and it's still a lot more than I sell it for. An example is a string of battery lights that @ 50% off was £6.99 whilst the same thing in my shop (with a reasonable profit margin) was £4.99. I heard that this particular chain has an outlet in the middle of nowhere and has it's Christmas display out very early with inflated prices then one month later all the remaining outlets put out the same products showing 50% off the prices covering themselves as they had been for sale at the inflated price for 28 days+ at the one outlet. I also see the same thing happening at a local garden centres, items go on display in October with over inflated prices come November these are reduced by 50% or more. I could adopt the attitude of "if you cant beat them join them" but we have traded for over 42 years from the same site and our business ethos has always been one of honesty and I will not change that just to compete. I am also aware of a very large Supermarket that had a can of drink on sale in September @ 50p, in October it went up to £1.20 and then in November, in time for Christmas, it was on sale at half price @60p. It's all wrong and needs to be stopped, the public are being conned day in and day out with such misleading claims-rant over...

Thanks for the advice HB, will let you know how we get on. Pan

Hi honeybee 13, that's a good idea, didn't know you could do that. Will be on the phone in the morning to one who is highly recommended to see if he offers the service. Might even send the son in law a bill for this help he can then claim that on his expenses Lol.

Thanks for the additional info Sidewinder, it all starts to make sense. As much as taxation can to the man on the street. I just felt aggrieved on his behalf. He works hard and travels miles to jobs and all is reward is more deductions. Maybe a qualified accountant might be the answer (with respect to my daughter). just concerned that if he takes this path the accountants fees could outweigh the benefits but it might be worth it for a financial year just to see what he can wangle, sorry, adjust for him. Once again thanks for your input. Pantheman

Sidewinder, thanks for the second post. Am I thick or what?-Please dont answer that! The penny has dropped now-Quote If you're self-employed you pay Class 2 and Class 4 National Insurance contributions. How did I miss that? must have been looking for something more complicated. Thank you.

Hi Sidewinder, thanks for your input, my knowledge is possibly even more limited. I understand what you are saying and do not have a position to defend on this. This young man has been a sub contractor for the same person for over 11 years. Just over 18 months ago the contractor had over 100 subbies (I think that's the correct spelling) working for him. The young mans research, with a lot of these, he works alongside, is that less than half pay class 4 with no dividing line as to why. He is paid with tax deducted, submits his tax claim on line and gets a rebate for his outlay connected with work, I think. Only recently has he claimed for the additional items such as gas, electric, water etc as before that he was living with friends but now has his own rented accommodation. Up till then he did not pay class 4 and nothing seemed to be amiss but this year he was informed that he should be paying class 4 and was billed and fined for 2010-2011, again no explanation as to why. Hence I have posted here on his behalf in an attempt to find out if this is correct and if so why all of a sudden. Depending on the explanation he will be able to explain this to all the other subcontractors who can then get their house in order and start paying class 4 before they also get fined or to get them off class 4 cause they have been incorrectly charged for it. either way its clarity of who does and who does not pay and when or when not you are liable for this class of NI. I hope this makes sense.

Thanks for the link Nystagmite and your input. I understand what you are saying and maybe I am looking at this from the wrong angle. my assumption is that if you are self employed you are like "employed" people entitled to earn a wage from you labour and therefore employed or self employed you pay the same NI contributions however if self employed and you sell a product or anything else besides your labour and make a profit on that you are liable for class 4 NI. ( This point seems to have been covered by Sidewinders post above and has possibly destroyed my argument). Whilst your link tells you the thresholds etc it does not (to me anyway) tell you that if your circumstances are XY&Z you pay class 2 and if they are AB&C you have to pay class 4. I and my daughter have searched everywhere trying to find a concrete statement that clearly lays out when and when not you have to pay class 4 and I can only find, as on your link, the exceptions. one being when you are over retirement age.

My son in law is self employed as a grounds worker in the building trade. He works for the same company but does not get holiday pay etc. His tax is stopped from his pay. My Daughter does his tax return on line and claims for his tools work wear, all the normal stuff. She also claims a percentage of his fuel costs, gas, electric and water. This I thought this a bit odd. He has just been informed that he should have been paying Class 4 National Insurance resulting in a fine for last year and a £900 NI bill plus and another amount for this year (2011-12). I don't think this can be right! he earned about £18,000 last year and paid class 2 contribution. I cannot seem to find anything to clarify about when you have to pay class 4 except the use of the word earnings for class 2 and profit for class 4. my daughter says as he provides a service he is therefore a business and his earnings are profit. I disagree as I see his earning as wages, but Daddy is not always right. They are scared to query this in case they stir things up and end up getting more fines and payment demands for past years. with 3 children under 10 they need every penny. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

My daughter has just recieved a letter from Lloyds TSB with a cheque in it for the remainder of our claim, they have settled out of court after two and a half years and fifty plus letters. Yes we had to concede part of our claim but they were correct in the fact that they whilst they had taken money from her account and allocated it to her credit card against her instructions she had not lost that money and therefore it could not be claimed as a loss. I make this post not to gloat (well maybe a little bit) but to bring hope to all that are getting back at the banks for the way they rip us, the customer, off. Its now us 2 Lloyds 0. If I can pass any advice onto others it would be to make sure all your paperwork is accurate and submitted in time and above all make sure Lloyds do the same. We won the first case because they failed to submit their documents and whilst the second case was settled out of court (before a second hearing) we told Lloyds that their witness statement was submitted 18 days late and therefore we had asked for this to be struck out. Good luck to eveyone who has cases still pending, stay with it you can do it. Power to the people!!!

Need some help and guidance please-any opnions also welcome Arrived at court on the 2nd October and was kept waiting for over 3 hours, case now put off untill a later date. Lloyds sent a Barister from Birmingham and he gave us a copy of his "skeleton arguments" In this they claim that while they made deductions from my account after being instructed in writing not to, as these were to pay off my credit card balance (possible set off) I have not lost the money as it reduced my credit card balance. I feel I have to concede this part of my claim as they have a point. Question1 Am I correct that the judge is likly to see it the same way? The court order said all documents including witness statement, must be filed and served by the 1st September. Lloyds sent a 52 page witness statement to my old address (that I left and notified them about in February 2009). This was sworn on the 18th September 09. and I recieved it via a third party and by luck on the 27th September 09, less than 5 days before the hearing. Question 2 Can I ask for the witness statement to be excluded as it was dated 18 days after the court order deadline? And finaly If the answer to question 1 is yes, as i think it will be, is it better for me to accept this now, write to Lloyds saying I am willing to concede this part of my claim. This would reduce the claim to about £95. If I also informed them that I had asked for the witness statement to be struck out for being served late however I will settle out of court for the £95. do you feel this is the best thing to do? They may have wasted all this time and money defending a complicated claim of under £300 will they still want to send a barister on a 150 mile trip just for £95? Answers on a postcard please. No better idea, answer on here would be very helpful. Thanks in advance

Just an update. lloyds filed a corrected defence two days after the court deadline. I asked for a judgement by default and had no reply from the court. We now have a court date for the 2nd October 2009. It seems that of the 26 plus points we raised the defence have denied several including recieving certain correspondence that was sent to them either as originals or attached to other letters that refered to them. They have even "denied" (their words) that my daughter accidently used her debit card during the period when it clearly shows on a statement-do they know what they are doing I ask. Will update more as the situation develops. Can anyone provide a copy of Lloyds TSB visa card T & C's either proving or disproving that they have the right to take money from a current account to settle the visa debt. Lloyds say it clearly mentioned in the T & C's.

I though I would update this thread as its, so far, good news. I wrote to the court in March making it clear the Lloyds had submitted a standard type defence and on the basis of that the court had been mislead by Lloyds and threfore granted the stay Lloyds requested. Last week I get. Ref "General Form of Judgement or Order" dated 6th June 2009. 1 The stay is lifted 2 The defence is struck out as it is in standard form and does not address the issue of the case. 3 The defedants shall by *** file and serve a defence directed to the allegations in the claim. I say well done to the Judge that reveiw the case, fair play at last.

Thanks for the support, I agree with you. The treatment of my daughter by Lloyds TSB over the past 3/4 years is beyond belief by what used to be a member of a respected institution.

Just to bring the thread up to date I have written back to the court (on there advice) and explained in detail that my claim is not related to the OFT v The Banks with Justice Smith. Lloyds TSB have misuderstood the claim and lodged a defence that is irelevant to the claim and by doing so have mislead the court into granting a stay, on this basis will they remove it so the case can be heard. Wait and see now.

I think so, the card company have now put the debt out to an agency so the soliciitor has written to Lloyds visa about the agreement and lloyds are "examining the situation". We have offered to drop our case if LLoyds write off the card debt and this is underconsideration as the amount a about the same however now this stay has been granted-wrongly in my opnion-this could change our bargining position.

Both the bank account and her one credit card were in her name only. Her solicitor informed Lloyds Visa of the situation and requested they freeze the account pending the matrimonial settlement-they agreed to this. I understand that the bank would not notify her that is was going to set-off money from the account to her credit card but would it not have to notify her that it had taken this action because none of the reams of correspondence mentions "set-off" it does some months after the event say that it is in the credit cards T&C's. They were asked for a copy of the T&C's but never produced them. I did speak to the local Lloyds manager about this and he said he had never heard of the card or bank T&C's mentioning this.

Yes the account was overdrawn but she had an agreed overdraft and it was this I was paying off to close the account as we realised it was silly to leave it open and costing an additional £10 per month for nothing. She was not over her overdraft limit. Re the set-off. it seems we may have a problem here as the two paymnets were to Lloyds credit card, however. My daughter was going through a divorce, hubby had left her with what was considered "joint" debts. Her solicitor had contacted Lloyds TSB visa and they had agreed to freeze the debt pending the divorce settlement. This money, aprox £6000 has been with her solicitor since November 2007 pending the conclusion of her legal aid Bill of Cost. this is in the very final stages now. No notification was made by the bank that they were intending to set-off her visa card debt with the money paid to them.

Thanks BankFodder, this is what I thought. I have never heard the term "set off". Whats that?

Sorry have been away from my desk since last night. Your remarks are making me think that I have either done everthing the wrong way or I cannot ask the court to rule on this. The bank were sent a payment with conditions under which the payment was being made, one of these was to close the account. The bank ignored the conditions, never acknowledged reciept of the cheque but cashed it all the same & credited it to her account. They then paid out about £180 of the £462 to a credit card company in direct contradiction to my daughters two lots of written instruction to cancel all DD & SO. In addition to this they carried on charging an account charge of £10 per month, refusing then to close the account. three days before her court award arrived at her account-contra to court orders. They removed her overdraft facility causing her to loose £325 of her award straight away. I cannot beleive that no matter who it is bank, business or private individual can operate in such a way and then refuse to rectify the numerous situations and the client(my daughter) has no recourse via the legal system. Please dont say we have no case.

That they took the money from us under false pretences and payed out from the same after being told on 2 occasions to cancel all d/d & s/o, this put her back into and overdraft situation that they then withdrew (the overdraft) and continued to then add more charges to the account putting her futher into the red. We actualy whent to the branch and refused to leave until they sorted the situation, all they would do was change the account o one without a fee attached. We never got anything in writting from them prior to sending the money nor have we requested a subject access request.

Our letter layed out how we came to the amount offered and said "if this is acceptable" please confirm in writting and close the account. They took the money, never confirmed if it was or was not acceptable and when we questioned about the account closure refused to close it without explanation. After this 62 letters went between us and Lloyds TSB and they still did not answer why the account could not be closed but then suddenly closed it. The last letter said to the effect "we are sorry you feel the need to take this matter to the county court and therefore will await the ruling from the court"

Some time ago my daughter was lucky enough to win her case against Lloyds TSB when they requested a stay in court. This was on a technicality as they had failed to lodge their paperwork correctly. Since then Lloyds have made her life a misery and we are now back in the court system against them and the case is rather complicated. In brief we are claiming that they took a payment of over £450 (my cheque) that was given to them on the understanding they would close her account. They took the money, but refused to close the account. Prior to this they were instructed twice in writting to cancel ALL d/d and s/o. When they recieved the above money they paid out over £150 to their own credit card, in two payments, putting her back into overdraft again with all the associated charges. They would still not close the account charging her £10 per month for the account. We changed the account type so there was no monthly charges. After April 07 the statements stopped coming it seems off their own back they then closed the account still owing her money. Put the papers into the courts with much more detail than above, Lloyds issued a standard defence against "Bank Charges", they then applied for a stay. We objected to the courts staying this case as it was nothing to do with the OFT test case. the Judges direction arrived to day and he has granted a stay, incorrectly in my opinion, re the test case. Can anyone tell me what we do now???

JSS. I am no expert but I am sure that if either party (you or Lloyds TSB) do not carry out the instructions of the court order, such as file certain items, documents etc by the time scale set out in the order. The court will find against the party who failed to abide by the instructions of the order. Make sure you do everthing you are supposed to do and turn up at court, tell the other side nothing until you get into the court, do not agree to a stay, and make sure you can prove that your documents were sent with recorded delivery & proof of delivery paperwork etc. If you are pretty sure the other side have not filed papers or whatever on time tell the judge when you get chance to speak. I won on this basis, see my post above, hope it helps, good luck.

JAB V Lloyds TSB, Northampton County Court, 23rd August.2007. Case won. We arrived for a directions hearing with all our paperwork, we were introduced to Lloyds Barrister, no less.He wanted a stay due to the OFT test case. We disagreed despite being bullied by him. In court, Lloyds explained why they wanted a stay, I was asked why I disagreed. At this point, I could only think, “Because I don’t want one”. I referred to the judgment order and confirmed the dates when I had filed my bundle at the court and SCM. I also explained that I had also written to SCM (as per the court order) to resolve the issue but had no reply. Section 4 of the order said, the defendant was to file and serve a schedule in response to my bundle, by the 8th August. This I didn’t think had been filed. The following two sections said. “If the defendant fails to comply with section 4, the defence will be struck out and the claimant will be entitled to Judgement” and “If the defendant does not comply with section 4, the directions hearing would be vacated.” I then asked, “As the defendant had not filed and served as ordered in section 4 why we are here?” The Judge, checked his file and agreed with me My copy of the judgement order was passed to the other side, who had no record of it. The Judge then struck out Lloyds defence, but offered a short adjournment to allow the Lloyds representative to take instructions. As we came out of the court the Lloyds Barrister said to us, and I quote word for word, “Why didn’t you bloody tell me you had that”, referring to the order, and stormed off. Whilst waiting to go back into court, the Lloyds TSB Barrister told me that SCM had not received my bundle. Without thinking I showed him my proof of special delivery, I should have said nothing and waited for him to bring this up in court. He then said, “You know this judge is under investigation, that’s why there is another man in the court taking notes”. In court, he said SCM had not received the Judgement order (should of asked for this to be sworn on oath) but he never mentioned the bundle, I produced a letter clearly referring to all details of the order, sent to SCM requesting a resolution. He then quoted various legal passages but in the end, the Judge turned down all his arguments and found in our favour for the full amount plus 8% interest. The he tried to get this get reduced to 6%. The Judge said, “I am sure your clients would charge the Ms **** more than 6%?” Nice one I thought! When waiting to go into court we overheard two discussions between banks solicitors and claimants, both solicitors said they were applying for stays and one solicitor even took a claimants file off him and read it. Beware do not trust the banks, tell and show them nothing and make sure all your letters etc has ever bit of information you can squeeze into them. Sorry it a long post but hope it’s useful.