second hand engine faulty 4 months later

[intersimi]

Hi all,

 

Situation:-

 

I purchased a Peugeot 807 2.2 Hdi a couple of years back. Car was reliable up until recently, when the Alternator pulley shattered and entered cam belt housing which broke the CAM belt and knackered the engine.

 

First Incident:-

 

Due to various expensive reasons (diesel injectors stuck in engine), it was deemed to be a cheaper solution to purchase a second hand engine by a third party company and have Peugeot fit it.

 

An engine was bought for £1600 and Peugeot fitted (for £1935) the engine and new CAM belt. (Total spend = £3535)

 

Second Incident:-

 

2 Month later, the clutch went and was replace for £600 by Peugeot MOT then failed on CV Boot (another £250)

 

Third Incident:-

 

After leaving the car in the snow for 3 days (4 months since initial engine replacement), it would not start. RAC called out and tried to start it, but nothing working. Car was taken to Peugeot garage.

 

Peugeot garage are saying that the enhgine is now faulty and that the CAM belt seems to have snapped, but they are unable to determine what the issue is unless they drop it out of the car (22 hours work to take out and put back). They did say that it is definately the engine.

 

Where I am now:-

 

OK, so, I have an engine supplied by a third party with only a 60 day guarantee. Peugeot state the engine is faulty. Under the sale of Goods act, where do I stand?

 

Can I get the supplier of the engine to fix it?

Do I have to pay for Peugeot to take engine apart to determine the fault?

 

Total spend so far in last 4 months = £4385

[riget]

I don't know the legal bits, but from a mechanics view, I can't see the engine supplier being at fault, even if soga says it should have lasted longer, you said the peugeot garage fitted the engine and timing belt, so if the belts snapped the fault must be with the peugeot garage, unless something went in the engine that made the belt go.

I can't see any option but for you to pay the garage to find the reason the belt went.

[intersimi]

I probably confussed things in the description.

 

The issue I have now, is that engine is not sucking in air and the Peugeot garage knows it is the engine, but suspects the CAM Shaft specifically.

 

I took out a car loan to buy the car. What options do I have with regards to giving the car back to them?

[Conniff]

So why do they feel the need to remove the engine for a cylinder head fault, that can be removed in situ and investigated.

Either the belt broke or it didn't, they will be able to see that.

 

Ask them why they need to remove the engine. If it spun over when the key was turned then there is not a fault in the engine.

 

Cam belts break because the pullies that it run around have seized, the water pump if driving that has seized or the camshaft has seized or the pump has seized. All fully visible without removing the engine.

 

If the pistons have seized, this can be checked without removing the engine as well.

 

Check that there is antifreeze in as the coolant freezing could seize the water pump (if driven by the cam belt) and break the belt. As they put the engine in, this would then be their fault and no one elses.

 

Reasons for not sucking in air should first be investigated by taking a compression test, that does not require the engine to be removed either, in fact I can't so far see any reason to remove the engine.

Edited February 6, 2009 by Conniff

[intersimi]

Thanks for your advice Coniff.

 

What would a compression test consist of?

 

The only issue currently is that the engine will not start and this is due (according to Peugeot) to the lack of suction. They have said they removed air filters etc.

[Conniff]

If it has glow plugs then just removing them and screwing in a pressure guage, if no glow plugs because it is electronic, it may still have blanked holes (like spark plug holes on petrol engines), where the blanks can be removed to test or removing the injectors and using that hole to check the cylinder pressure.

If it is electronic, then the injectors are no problem to remove.

 

Can you confirm if the cam belt has broken?

[intersimi]

The CAM Belt is not broken.

 

The engine was originally replaced, because Peugeot were unable to get the injectors out.

 

I have sent Peugeot an email asking for a techical description of the issue as they see it and what tests they have completed in order to determine the issue is the engine. I have also asked if they have performed a compression test.

[Conniff]

Why can't an engine suck if the belt is not broken, exhaust valves are permanently open or inlet valves permanently closed.

 

The pully on the end of the camshaft has sheared the key locking it to the shaft, very unlikely unless the pulley bolt was loose.

 

The belt slipped some teeth so the pistons came into contact with the valves bending them so always open, would be unusual for all valves to be bent, and belt if fitted properly should not slip without taking some of the belt teeth with it, so easy to see on belt removal only.

 

If they couldn't remove the injectors, then they don't have the correct tools. If they were extremely tight, they should have warned you that removal could break them off or the threads be stripped so a new/used cylinder head would be required, not a whole engine.

A good mechanic would have been able to apply heat to the head to facilitate removal without damage to the head.

 

I hope that is understandable.

[intersimi]

I hate this Peugeot garage. I must admit, I do feel like they are taking me for a ride every time I turn up, but then after nearly £4500 in repairs, i would expect most people would, especially, as the car is still not running.

 

I am waiting for a reply from their manager now on my questions.

 

Your responses do make sense. It seems like the valves are stuck and they could be stuck either because the are bent, or the CAM Shaft is not spinning as it could be no longer connected to the pulley connected to the CAB belt.

[Conniff]

Unless the locking nut on the end of the pully holding it to the camshaft was loose, it is very unlikely that the key (dowel), sheared. A lot of testing is done to make sure it can't happen, the belt would break or loose it's teeth before that happened, but, of course, not impossible.

 

I look forward to their reply.

Edited February 6, 2009 by Conniff

[riget]

So as you now say the cam belt is not broken, from what you have said I would suspect the timing chain.

The fault sounds terminal and a compression test unlikely to help.

[Conniff]

You wont have a timing chain and a timing belt (the correct name for the cam belt).

You should always take the easiest and cheapest route to diagnosis for the customers sake.

Is the timing belt broken, if not then do a compression check.

If yes, replace and turn the engine over by hand to see if the pistons come up against any obstructions, if yes then off head, if no, compression test.

 

I can't see the reason for taking the whole engine out.

[LancerQRL]

i seem to remember a recall on 2.2 hdi's concerning the camshaft timing chain- they have a belt and chain system- but as it was a second hand engine it would be nigh on impossible to find out if it was done- maybe this is the problem?

[riget]

You wont have a timing chain and a timing belt (the correct name for the cam belt).

You should always take the easiest and cheapest route to diagnosis for the customers sake.

Is the timing belt broken, if not then do a compression check.

If yes, replace and turn the engine over by hand to see if the pistons come up against any obstructions, if yes then off head, if no, compression test.

 

I can't see the reason for taking the whole engine out.

 

As already been said this engine has a timing belt and chain, the garage have already diagnosed the engine has no induction, a compression test is a waste of time, removing the cylinder head is very difficult if not impossible sometimes, and removing the engine is the best and quickest way to go.

[Conniff]

Ok, I haven't been out of it that long, but always willing to learn, can you tell me how the cam and chain setup works??

[riget]

I've been out for over 5 years, but try to keep up, and go in the garage as often as possible.

The belt drives one cam and the other cam is driven by chain between the cams.

Sounds like the chains gone and only one cam is turning?

I don't know the legal stuff but to get warranty on a 4 month old engine don't sound easy, also only the part would be covered not the labour I would guess.

[Conniff]

Cheers riget.

 

So if it is the chain, why did one of the cams seize which must have happened to break the chain.

I can't believe that Peugeot wouldn't have changed the oil and filter.

[riget]

Who knows what's happened, I never done any engine work on one of these, had one in the garage once with a noise, asked a mechanic in the peugeot dealers, and he told me to walk away, it's the worst engine he's ever worked on, that's how I know you have to remove the engine to do any work, something about the injectors and head.

The boss told the customer we can't do it and to go to the dealers.

[intersimi]

Here is the diagnostic update from peugeot:-

 

We carried out a diagnostic test using the PPS system and found that the vehicle had cam and crankshaft sychronisation, it had fuel pressure and engine speed signal which are the main factors it requires to start the engine. We then removed the air dozer and EGR valve to gain access to the intake manifold, at this point we cranked over the engine and found no suction on the intake.

 

We have not checked the compressions at this stage as the engine would need to be lowered in order to gain access to the injectors and these may not come out as discussed with Richard. This would be the next stage in the diagnosis path if you could get them out.

[intersimi]

I am now going down the route of having the Finance company accept the car back under Voluntary Termination. I have asked the Black Horse company for help in my decision making.

 

The car will be collected by the RAC from Peugeot and dropped back to my house, so I can take the various bits and pieces out in preparation.

[raydetinu]

I would suggest you leave it at the garage and pick your bits up from there.