Paypal Again!! Holding Money Paid To Me!!

[gemspan]

Hi there

 

I havent used ebay for a while but have some stuff I needed to sell because I am struggling at the mo before starting my new job. The first few items went through OK and then I sold a brass kitchen sink tap which sold for £50. I received an email saying "payment received post now" and when I opened it up it told me that they were putting the payment of £50 plus P&P on hold until I either received positive feedback from the buyer or for 21 days without a dispute arising!!! This morning I received another email saying the same thing for a product that sold for £7.50!!!

 

I called them and advised them that as I had 100% feedback on previous sales and purchases they had no right to do this as it fell outwith their policy which clearly states that they will not withhold money if you have 100% feedback score or the item sold is below £50. The first item was exactly £50 and the second was £7.50 and yet they are holding the £7.50. They refused to take the hold off the money!!

 

They expect me to post the items - the first one is worth £250 as it is a top of the range product and the second product is worth about £50 as it's high quality leather. I'm not prepared to do this!! At the end of the day I am selling products and the purchaser is paying for them, it is not up to them to decide if I should get the money. I will also have to incur the P&P which, for the first item, will be about £10 because it is solid brass and very heavy!!

 

I have sent a message to the buyers explaining what has happened but feel terrible for them because they have paid the money in good faith and I have had no problems in the past like this. I have always received excellent scores for customer service etc., from buyers.

 

Is this legal? I really need the money but will not take the chance that the buyers will post negative feedback or raise a dispute. Has this happened to anybody else and, if so, what did they do and what was the outcome? Paypal are now based in Luxembourg and the people I spoke to this morning were in Dublin. What a [problem]!!! They just want to keep my money to earn interest on it. I will never use ebay again!!

 

Any help would be gratefully received.

 

Gemspan

[gemspan]

bump!!! anyone please!

[chudlt]

Something not right here!!! Feed back is between you and the buyer. Have you checked your Paypal account to see if the money is in there? I never send an item until the buyer has paid either to Paypal or cheque etc.

[gemspan]

Hi there

 

Thanks for your reply. Yes, the money is in there but paypal have put a hold on it. They say it is a NEW security system they have in place. One of the buyers has placed positive feedback and the money is still being held. This is an absolute joke. Honestly, who do they think they are. Are they not effectively stealing the money from the person who paid it to me?

 

Thanks

Gemspan

[chudlt]

I have trawled their site but can't find any reference to new security measures. I have been using Paypal for many years now. Problem is some buyers don't give feedback. From what you are saying that would mean they would withold payment for 21 days!!! The only time I have had payment withheld was when some idiot raised a dispute without telling me. In those instances they freeze the amount under dispute. Sorry I can't help further.

[guineapigs]

I had this problem last year I phoned them and after a huge row on the phone they gave me MY money but I had to close my account down in order to get the money.

[wearenotnumbers]

Hi gemspan I have exactly the same thing at the moment my item was sold for £25 but the guy was in the states and it was £58 to send.

My latest fiasco with e bay is I have an item on sale on there and paypal have just sent me an invoice for december of £5,11p now I notice a problem with me item and they wont let me edit my listing [to help the buyer]until I pay £5.11p which they are already holding for 21 days from a previous sale including the postage .and to add insult to injury charged me 55p for a £10 payment into paypal that they have forced me into accepting .Please dont anyone ask if I read the terms .I will write them in short,,,,,,,,,,,,,we do what we want !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[hightail]

I don't know if it actually works but you could try refunding your buyers 1p. The ebay forums have threads claiming sellers have found a glitch which means your funds are released if you do this. Paypal introduced these so called security measures and are now applying them randomly, presumably lining their own pockets holding onto money which belongs to other people.

[bottomburp]

I've had terrible problems with eBay and PayPal too and now that eBay has bought PayPal it's a complete nightmare. Neither seem to come under UK jurisdiction either.

 

Personally, I think we should all vote with our feet and use different auction sites. Perhaps then eBay and PayPal will get off their plinths and start listening to their clients.

[whiterose11]

I too have a problem with paypal you can read my thread paypal v me

i too will NEVER use paypal or ebay again

[IdaInFife]

anyone with this should do as high tail has advised. The new t and c's that came out clearly stated that this may happen to people with less then 10 feedback no matter what the cost of the item was but there is a loophole that hightail has highlighted

 

ida x

[bartezno1]

I tried the refund trick but get a message reading:-

'

'Your refund must not exceed your available balance. If you have funds in another currency balance, you may want to consider transferring funds from other currency balances'.

 

This is ridiculous I am expected to send an item to someone in Canada worth $320 without receiving the money!!!! I dont think so!!

[WelshMam2009]

PayPal are a main in the neck...agreed.

 

I list with Turbo Lister and for the vast majority of auctions, it provides a warning advising that PayPal may hold funds until such time as you receive positive feeback or until the prescribed time limit has passed.

 

I wouldn't worry about it and just post the item via signed for delivery. You can enter the tracking number on PayPal which will help in the event of any future dispute.

 

Whilst I don't disagree with your comments, eBay and PayPal have the market pretty well sown up. So you either play by their rules or don't play at all I'm afraid.

 

Good luck!!

[bartezno1]

PayPal are a main in the neck...agreed.

 

I wouldn't worry about it and just post the item via signed for delivery. You can enter the tracking number on PayPal which will help in the event of any future dispute.

 

Good luck!!

 

Been bitten like that before and paypal sided with the buyer even though I supplied tracking details and a signature!!!! I would have been out of pocket to the sum of £200 had I not shut down my account.

The security systems on Paypal favour the buyer and leave the transaction open to so much fraud even with a confirmed delivery.

If they complain...you lose!!

I wont be sending til I get the money.

[bottomburp]

How about contacting the buyer and asking them to get Paypal to refund them. The buyer should make the complaint that a vendor can't send (why should they) until Paypal releases the money ... If I was the buyer I'd be mighty narked at Paypal and would be happy to try to help. bb

[WelshMam2009]

How about contacting the buyer and asking them to get Paypal to refund them. The buyer should make the complaint that a vendor can't send (why should they) until Paypal releases the money ... If I was the buyer I'd be mighty narked at Paypal and would be happy to try to help. bb

 

I think the"why should they" is because the Seller has signed up to PayPal's terms and conditions which generally requires dispatch within 7 calendar days of payment and also stipulates that they (PayPal) may place a hold on the money as follows:

10.7 eBay Item Hold.

 

1. 
   


1. PayPal, in its sole discretion, may place a hold on a payment you receive for an eBay transaction when PayPal believes there may be a high level of risk associated with the transaction. If PayPal places a hold on your payment, it will show as "pending" in your PayPal Account.
   
2. Release of eBay item hold. PayPal will release the eBay item hold after 21 days unless you receive a Dispute, Claim, Chargeback, or Reversal on the transaction subject to the hold. PayPal may release the hold earlier if the buyer leaves positive feedback on eBay.
   
3. Additional hold period. If you receive a Dispute, Claim, Chargeback, or Reversal on the transaction subject to the eBay item hold, PayPal may hold the payment in your Account (or an amount equal to the relevant payment) until the matter is resolved pursuant to this Agreement.
   

 

You may not think it's fair BUT these are the terms that you're signing up to when you trade with eBay and PayPal.

 

Also, asking the buyer to ask for a refund to make alternative arrangements for payment may result in you having your eBay account suspended as it is compulsory to offer PayPal as a payment mechanism.

 

Oh, and don't flame me on this...I'm not saying I agree with what they do, but as I said earlier, they make the rules and you either abide by them or don't trade with them. It's your choice.

[bartezno1]

Am not being held to ransom by Paypal over this..I have refunded the buyer his money with an explanation why.

Not prepared to risk $320 (£205) for anyone.

Well done Ebay / Paypal great policy you have there!!

[WelshMam2009]

Am not being held to ransom by Paypal over this..I have refunded the buyer his money with an explanation why.

Not prepared to risk $320 (£205) for anyone.

Well done Ebay / Paypal great policy you have there!!

 

Just incase you don't know, if you go to eBay's Resolution Centre and open a case saying that you wish to cancel the transaction then you should get your Final Fee Credited eventually.

[bottomburp]

Also, asking the buyer to ask for a refund to make alternative arrangements for payment may result in you having your eBay account suspended as it is compulsory to offer PayPal as a payment mechanism.

 

Yes, I know it's compulsory to offer PayPal as a method of payment - but if you want to be paid another way you can state that. For example we recently sold some stuff that the buyer collected - why would we use PayPal when we could have cash on collection?

 

I was just trying to help bartenzo by giving a suggestion to "attack" from the other end. The purchaser could, for example, say I'd like my money back because I don't like the way you're behaving with the vendor.

 

PayPal may think they are above the law and can impose these ridiculous T & Cs - but are they enforceable in law? I doubt it.

 

We once had some idiot buy a dishwasher on buy-it-now. He paid using PayPal and then read the listing properly and decided he didn't want it because a piece was missing (clearly stated). He opened a dispute saying it hadn't been collected - listing said collection only - and PayPal refunded him! I wouldn't trust PayPal further than I can spit.

[WelshMam2009]

I wouldn't trust PayPal further than I can spit.

 

I DON'T DISAGREE WITH YOU!!

 

Unfortunately, they have us over a barrel and they damn well know it!!

 

I just had someone say that something I sold (sealed packaging) had 'gone off.' I don't believe it for one second as I have sold 8 identical items without any complaints and have one left, which I opened and checked, and it was also fine. But it was just less hassle to issue a refund straight away rather than let PayPal do it for me!!

 

It's just one of the risks of trading on eBay and something I tend to build in to my costs.

[ForestChav]

I think the"why should they" is because the Seller has signed up to PayPal's terms and conditions which generally requires dispatch within 7 calendar days of payment and also stipulates that they (PayPal) may place a hold on the money as follows:You may not think it's fair BUT these are the terms that you're signing up to when you trade with eBay and PayPal.

Not unless THEY changed the terms, if that term wasn't in there when you signed up for paypal, and you agreed to that.

 

They are implying by agreeing to one set of terms (which, to be honest, is fair enough) you will agree to every single change of terms they make since.

 

They should notify if there is such a detrimental change to the terms, it is ridiculous if they change terms to not release YOUR money, essentially they are sitting on 21 days' interest. They could change it to say that you have to keep the funds within paypal and of course everyone who signed up before then has implicitly agreed.

 

We do have unfair terms legislation for a reason...

[WelshMam2009]

Not unless THEY changed the terms, if that term wasn't in there when you signed up for paypal, and you agreed to that.

 

They are implying by agreeing to one set of terms (which, to be honest, is fair enough) you will agree to every single change of terms they make since.

 

They should notify if there is such a detrimental change to the terms, it is ridiculous if they change terms to not release YOUR money, essentially they are sitting on 21 days' interest. They could change it to say that you have to keep the funds within paypal and of course everyone who signed up before then has implicitly agreed.

 

We do have unfair terms legislation for a reason...

 

Not sure who's jurisdiction PayPal falls under as they are internet based but I'm guessing it may not be the UK.

 

I know Google is Ireland but that's irrelevant to this case anyway.

 

As regards unfair practices they will probably start spurting off about money laundering and having responsibilities to prevent and detect fraudualent activities etc.

 

I don't wish to sound pessimistic but you're honestly wasting your time and effort arguing with them....

[binkhus]

paypal are rubbish, i sold an item, the buyer came to pick it up because it was too big but they paid with paypal . they then reversed payment and even though they have left me positive feedback paypal wont do anything because i dont have a tracking number! i will never use ebay or paypal again.

[ForestChav]

Not sure who's jurisdiction PayPal falls under as they are internet based but I'm guessing it may not be the UK.

 

I know Google is Ireland but that's irrelevant to this case anyway.

 

As regards unfair practices they will probably start spurting off about money laundering and having responsibilities to prevent and detect fraudualent activities etc.

 

I don't wish to sound pessimistic but you're honestly wasting your time and effort arguing with them....

I don't actually use paypal so I'm not arguing with them anyway.

 

https://www.paypal.com/uk/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/UserAgreement/ua/EUUA-outside Heres the relevant page...

 

1.1 PayPal is only a Payment Service Provider.

 

PayPal is duly licenced as a Luxembourg credit institution in the sense of Article 2 of the law of 5 April 1993 on the financial sector as amended (the “Law”) and is under the prudential supervision of the Luxembourg supervisory authority, the Commission de Surveillance du Secteur Financier, with registered office in L-1150 Luxembourg.

 

---

1.6 Notices to You. We will communicate with you in the language(s) in which we have made available this Agreement to you. You agree that PayPal may provide notice to you by posting it on the PayPal website(s), emailing it to the email address listed in your Account, or mailing it to the street address listed in your Account. With the exception of amendments to this Agreement, such notice shall be considered to be received by you within 24 hours of the time it is posted to the PayPal website(s) or email to you. If the notice is sent by mail, we will consider it to have been received by you three Business Days after it is sent. You may request a paper copy of any legally required disclosures and you may terminate your consent to receive required disclosures through electronic communications by contacting PayPal as described in section 1.7 below. PayPal may charge you a Records Request Fee (per section 8) to provide a paper copy. PayPal reserves the right to close your Account if you withdraw your consent to receive electronic communications.

 

[hmm, no mention about how they tell you the amendment has been made]

 

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10.2 Actions by PayPal. If we have reason to believe that you have engaged in any Restricted Activities, we may take various actions to protect PayPal, eBay, a User, a third party, or you from Reversals, Chargebacks, Claims, fees, fines, penalties and any other liability. The actions we may take include but are not limited to the following: We may hold your funds for up to 180 Days if reasonably needed to protect against the risk of liability

 

[by doing so they are effectively defaming you, because they say they only withold funds if they suspect you are breaking their rules (the section details the T+Cs), there is no mention of them doing this anyway]

 

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14.2 Financial Ombudsman Service. You may contact the UK Financial Ombudsman Service and escalate a claim against us. You may obtain information regarding the Financial Ombudsman Service at http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk.

 

[so you can use the FOS to complain even though they are based in L]

 

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14.3 Governing Law and Jurisdiction. This Agreement and the relationship between us shall be governed by English law. For complaints that cannot be resolved otherwise, you submit to the non-exclusive jurisdiction of the English courts arising out of or relating to this Agreement

 

[so uk law applies, hence so does UFTC]

 

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14.6 No Warranty. We provide the Services to you subject to your statutory rights but otherwise provided without any warranty or condition

 

[iow, "this does not affect your statutory rights"]

 

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“PayPal,” “we,” “us” or “our” means PayPal (Europe) S.à.r.l. & Cie, S.C.A. with registered office at 22-24 Boulevard Royal L-2449, Luxembourg duly licenced as a Luxembourg credit institution in the sense of Article 2 of the law of 5 April 1993 on the financial sector as amended and is under the prudential supervision of the Luxembourg supervisory authority, the Commission de Surveillance du Secteur Financier.

 

---

 

Interesting...

[WelshMam2009]

Clause 10.2 it is then.

 

Restricted activities doesn't neessarily imply that the seller has done anything wrong as it could be a buyer hacking into an account and/or using stolen credit card details etc.