ladymoonray v Paragon Personal Finance

[ladymoonray]

Grrr! I asked for the claim to be allocated to the small claims track, because, well, it's a small claim! I've just had a letter and forms from Paragon's lawyers saying they've asked for it to be allocated to the Multi-track court. If I agree to this, they guarantee not to claim costs against me if I lose.

 

I'm inclined to refuse to agree, because I can't afford to use a lawyer and it will be more difficult for me to represent myself on the Multi-track. Also, I have to guarantee not to claim costs against Paragon.

 

They are going to ask for four other cases to be stayed pending the outcome of this one. Lucky me! I'm happy to fight, but I want to do it in the small claims court if at all possible.

 

Does anyone have any advice for me? At the moment, my intention is to reply to Paragon's solicitors (with a copy to the court) saying that I do not consent to the case being heard in the multi-track, for the reasons I've given above. Is there anything else anyone can think of to help me?

 

thanks!

 

ladymoonray

[zootscoot]

So they're trying this old tactic? I'd have thought they would have come up with something original by now. You may need to attend an allocation hearing but its worth sending your views into the court as this may then dispense for the need for allocation hearing. The good news is that even if it does go multi-track you do not risk the costs, but obviosly it won't be a fair fight if they are there with barristers and you are representing yourself.

 

Have a look at the following threads for my advice re - allocation hearings you can add these arguments to your letter to the court.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mortgage-companies/9207-reclaiming-abbey-mortgage-early.html

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/other-institutions/7223-sandy-gmac-rfc.html

 

All the best

 

Zoot

[ladymoonray]

Thanks so much for that Zoot. I feel a lot better about it now, and I shall certainly do whatever I can to get the case heard as a small claim. Having said that, I'm happy to go to an allocation hearing if I need to. I trained as a solicitor, though I don't practice, so I'm not as intimidated by the whole process as Paragon would probably like

[susanmom]

Hi,

Letter in the post this morning from Paragon's Solicitors, saying that they want to postpone my case until yours has been heard due "to the complicated legal issues and the importance to the mortgage lending industry as a whole"

 

I am planning to refuse to have my case postponed when the court contacts me as we are expecting a new baby in Feb and moving overseas in May, so really do not want this to drag on.

 

Good luck

 

Susan

[KJBoutcher]

Grrr! I asked for the claim to be allocated to the small claims track, because, well, it's a small claim! I've just had a letter and forms from Paragon's lawyers saying they've asked for it to be allocated to the Multi-track court. If I agree to this, they guarantee not to claim costs against me if I lose.

 

I'm inclined to refuse to agree, because I can't afford to use a lawyer and it will be more difficult for me to represent myself on the Multi-track. Also, I have to guarantee not to claim costs against Paragon.

 

They are going to ask for four other cases to be stayed pending the outcome of this one. Lucky me! I'm happy to fight, but I want to do it in the small claims court if at all possible.

 

Does anyone have any advice for me? At the moment, my intention is to reply to Paragon's solicitors (with a copy to the court) saying that I do not consent to the case being heard in the multi-track, for the reasons I've given above. Is there anything else anyone can think of to help me?

 

thanks!

 

ladymoonray

 

Hi LadyM, I too received the same letter from Paragon's people and they requested I have the case stayed pending the outcome of other similar cases... I guess they mean yours and the others listed in this thread! Scare tactics indeed, so lets see what happens. Good luck with yours LadyM as you seem to be the furthest one along here.

 

Susanmom, I think we are at a fairly similar point too so fingers crossed for LadyM!

 

Good luck to all, KJ

[bevo]

I am interested to know how you got on with Paragon did you receive your money?

[KJBoutcher]

Hi out there, anybody got any updates yet?

 

KJB

[ladymoonray]

Just a quick update:

 

Paragon are still trying to persuade me to agree to the claim being heard on the multi track. I am still refusing. I have asked the court to set a date for the allocation hearing asap, as I'm fed up with the delays.

 

More news as it comes in!

 

ladymoonray

[adamski]

Watching with interest.

As im sure Paragon are!

This one sounds like a winner to me! Go for it

Regards

adamski

[ladymoonray]

The allocation hearing is set for 24 January. I've decided not to worry about it until after the new year, but if anyone has any advice for me before then, please post it!

 

thanks

 

ladymoonray

[susanmom]

Hi

 

Is the allocation hearing still 24th January? I assume this will decide if you are multi-tracked or small claims court tracked ? Please keep us in the loop. We were supposed to go to small claims court on 10th Nov but this was held off until your case is decided. Baby due in Feb so could use the cash!!!!

 

Regards

 

Susan

[ladymoonray]

The allocation hearing is still on for 24th January. I'm annoyed, because I'm going to have to take a day off work to go to it, but I will not give in. I'll be posting shortly all the points I made in my various letters, so I can make sure I've covered everything; and then I shall just rely on that in court. I'd also like some advice on pointing out to the judge the threatening tone that Paragon's solicitors have been using in their correspondence, without getting told off for contempt. Thanks!

[KJBoutcher]

Hi all,

 

Been out of the loop for a while having my tonsills out and a 'nose job' to sort out my snoring, much to the delight of my wife!

 

I also have heard from the court (in Tunbridge Wells) with an AQ hearing of the 24th of January. Lady M, I'll no doubt be seeing you there too! Also, I agree with you about the tone of Paragon's solicitors, talk about trying to put the frighteners on you. More as it happens and see you on the 24th!

[ladymoonray]

Hello KJBoutcher! It's quite fab that you have a hearing on the same day as me. At least there will be moral support. What time are you down for? I think mine is 2pm.

 

I'm rushed off my feet until the weekend with my psych degree and work, but I'm planning to seriously sort out all the papers and my arguments on Sunday. I'll be posting if I get stuck

[KJBoutcher]

Hello KJBoutcher! It's quite fab that you have a hearing on the same day as me. At least there will be moral support. What time are you down for? I think mine is 2pm.QUOTE]

 

Mine is 2pm too, the letter I received from the court mentioned another case number being allocated at the same time... I suspect it's yours. Time is ticking!

[ladymoonray]

Just back from the allocation hearing. It went to the multi-track. *sigh*

 

Paragon are determined to take one case all the way and get a final decision. They have chosen mine, because it is the most "typical" of the actions against mortgage companies (no quirky features) and they've had their three other cases stayed pending the outcome of mine.

 

I tried ever so hard to get it into small claims, using all the arguments put together by the wonderful Zoot. We went through the factors the judge has to consider, and he listened to what both sides said. I reminded him of the overriding obligation to place the parties on an equal footing, and there was much discussion of costs. Paragon offered not to seek costs from me for the action up to and including the decision at first instance, whether I win or lose and whether or not I am represented (I won't be, I can't afford it).

 

In the end, the judge said I was quite capable of representing myself before a circuit judge, and put it on the multi track with no costs against me. So the directions are multi-track, with standard disclosure by 4pm 7 Feb, and exchange of witness statements by 4pm 7 March, followed by a further case management conference (probably before the circuit judge). There was also talk of doing as much as possible on written submissions, because I'm just not happy or confident arguing case law in court.

 

It wasn't as daunting as I feared, but I didn't get the outcome I wanted. A big, big thank you to KJBoutcher for being there as well. He didn't get to say much, because Paragon distinguished his case from mine very early on (he has a different, hopefully more favourable document), and he ended up with a stay, but it was nice to have someone there vaguely on my side!

 

Anyway, HELP!

[zootscoot]

Excellent stuff!

 

You get the benefits of standard disclosure and no costs risks!

 

Speak soon

 

Zoot

[paulpb123]

Hi Ladymoonray,

This looks like a great result - no costs! Good for you. Its nice of them to agree not to seek costs even if you win!

Very best of luck with this,

Paul

[ladymoonray]

Unfortunately, they're taking the position that the ERC is payment for exercising an option under the contract, rather than a penalty. So we have to get over that, before we even start on the actual cost thing. I had all the arguments with me about it, but the allocation hearing wasn't really the place for those, so I just made it clear that I don't agree.

 

I'll start reading up about the bundle tomorrow. I have awarded myself the evening off worrying about it

[ladymoonray]

I'm really sorry about this, but ill health is forcing me to give up my case. I'm just not well enough to go on with representing myself, and I can't afford a solicitor, so I have written to ask whether Paragon will agree to my withdrawing without any costs (I think they should, as it was agreed at the allocation hearing that they wouldn't pursue costs against me up to the end of the first instance hearing).

 

Thank you everyone for all your help, and good luck to those going on. I firmly believe that someone will win this argument once we've worked out all the hoops to jump through; and I'm sorry it isn't going to be me.

[dolly]

Don't be sorry - in my opinion you are doing exactly the right thing and one that I would certainly be doing if / when I am in your position.

 

I do honestly believe that ERC's will eventually become as easy to claim back as the charges are - unfortunately we are the guinea pigs for whom nothing is going right and once someone finds the correct bit of law, or a judge decides that these are in fact penalties, then others will find it easier.

 

Hope your health improves soon.

 

xx

[ladymoonray]

Thanks Dolly, you've made me feel a lot better.

[martinhw]

Ladymoonray,

Do you by any chance know if Paragon Personal Finance is a member of "The council of mortgage lenders"?

 

I know it has nothing to do with your case, but as it was an ERC you were claiming, the fact they are or are not a member will make a difference to our case against them.

[paulpb123]

First, sorry that you don't feel well enough to continue Ladymoonray. This is not worth putting your health on the line for. I agree with you, we will win in the end. Just searched the CML membership and the only listing they have is Paragon Mortgages PLC who are at St Catherines Dock in Solihull.

Paul

[susanmom]

HI

Sorry to hear about your health, its not worth the stress, particularly with that horrid bunch of solicitors they use!

Does anyone know what happens to the rest of us now?

 

Thanks

 

Susan