Help48xxx v. MBNA

[citizenB]

The thing is....

 

the way the document has been copied with the bare minimum info on it...ie my signature...and the fact that the T&C's are obviously more recent due to the £12.00 charge...meakes me think that they don't want me to see the original document in it's entirety. I did send them the standard letter asking for the original/complaining about the quality ofthe copy etc...they haven't replied to that yet!

 

I could be wrong though!

 

xx

 

Aha, so they havent sent you the entire document ?. Hmmm, curioser and curioser says Alice.. or was it the white rabbit

 

I really think you need the big guns on this one.. Dave firewalker/42 man/rory/slick, etc, etc... Hopefully one of them will pop in for you.

[Help48xxx]

My thinking exactly CitB!

 

just to clarify...I originally CCA'd RMA as they were hounding me. I then got a letter from Virgin which states, (as I said), they were enclosing a copy of the current T&C's as per my request. Four days later I got a letter from MBNA with the one page that had the copy at the top of each side, (which is what Iposted), and a copy of the T&C's which are identical to the ones Virgin sent. It's worth noting that RMA cleared off, and I haven't heard from them since!

 

It is indeed curious

xx

[foolishgirl]

Sounds to me as though they haven't got a CCA?

 

However I'm getting really confused following your thread now Help48. From dealing with MBNA & Optima, you now seemed to have leapt to Virgin & RMA. Is it all to do with the MBNA debt?

 

Have I missed something? Maybe I fell down the rabbit hole. It's OK - you can tell me if I'm being thick.

[davefirewalker]

Sounds to me as though they haven't got a CCA?

 

However I'm getting really confused following your thread now Help48. From dealing with MBNA & Optima, you now seemed to have leapt to Virgin & RMA. Is it all to do with the MBNA debt?

 

Have I missed something? Maybe I fell down the rabbit hole. It's OK - you can tell me if I'm being thick.

 

I would imagine it was a Virgin card (financed by MBNA) who then passed it on to a dca (RMA) if that makes it any clearer

 

A lot of cards are actually financed by only a couiple of companies

 

goldfish is barclays

tesco is RBS

virgin money is usually MBNA

 

etc

 

Dave

[Help48xxx]

Hi,

 

yep, it's a bit confusing to me too!

 

Basically I took the card out with Virgin, the card is provided though by MBNA.

 

Optima Legal are the 'Solicitors' that MBNA set on me when I CCA'd RMA, (DCA), who promptly legged it!

 

Clear as mud now !

 

xx

[Chalkitup]

Hello Help48xxx,

 

Top of page image three says "As your card is issued by MBNA Europe, you will see them mentioned a fair bit"

 

This might help.....

 

The top image looks very similar to their standard letter sent out when we receive replacement cards because old one expired. At the top it usually says This is a copy of your agreement ........ however it is not a true copy of the original for you!!

 

On the last image posted .... top left hand side ..... is that a picture of a small pair of scissors? I.E. ... cut here!!

 

If so ..... what was on the top part? And have they sent you a copy of this?

 

Are the three images linked in any way ... page number etc?

 

Have you cut the images down or is that the way they were sent to you?

 

It looks like they have sent you random pages to confuse and hope you are fooled into submission.

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

[Help48xxx]

Hi Chalk,

 

to clarify...images 1 & 2 are the second page of the copy they sent me. Image 3 is the first page. Yes that is a pair of scissors...along side it is written...'Please sign this form and return it to us'.

 

The images were both sent on one page of A4 paper but as the print area is approx 30% of each side, (they printed on both), it made me suspicious. I have not cut them down in any way. I'm faxing them through to Davefirewalker tomorrow so he should be able to bear that out.

 

xx

[foolishgirl]

Thanks for the clarification folks. No wonder they think they can confound you with bits taken from T&Cs from every credit card company they can come up with! I think they're totally confused themselves & running round in circles.

Any possibility of better images that show full sheets of what they have sent please?

[foolishgirl]

Sorry, post crossed with yours Help48...

[Chalkitup]

Hi Chalk,

 

to clarify...images 1 & 2 are the second page of the copy they sent me. Image 3 is the first page. Yes that is a pair of scissors...along side it is written...'Please sign this form and return it to us'.

 

The images were both sent on one page of A4 paper but as the print area is approx 30% of each side, (they printed on both), it made me suspicious. I have not cut them down in any way. I'm faxing them through to Davefirewalker tomorrow so he should be able to bear that out.

 

xx

 

Hello Help48xxx,

 

Thanks for that ..... I will look tomorrow when davefirewalker scans them in.

 

I am interested in the fact they sent a copy of your signature but cut off the top part of the page showing what you were actually agreeing too by signing!!!!

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

[citizenB]

Crikey chalkitup, your eyesight is amazing.

 

I did think there was something odd in that there just seemed to be 'bits', Capital One are fond of that method as well.

[Help48xxx]

Thanks Chalk.

 

I agree with CitB tho', you have amazing eyesight. My son was given 'better than 20/20 vision' by the Optician and even he couldn't read the words on the CCA from MBNA.

 

I'm somewhat heartened by your comments about Cap1 CitB....I CCA'd them a few days ago. I got my Cap1 card LONG before I got the one from Virgin/MBNA. I SO hope they fail to find the CCA. They have been even more annoying than MBNA!

 

xx

Edited June 26, 2008 by Help48xxx

[citizenB]

Thanks Chalk.

 

I agree with CitB tho', you have amazing eyesight. My son was given 'better than 20/20 vision' by the Optician and even he couldn't read the words on the CCA from MBNA.

 

I'm somewhat heatened by your comments about Cap1 CitB....I CCA'd them a few days ago. I got my Cap1 card LONG before I got the one from Virgin/MBNA. I SO hope they fail to find the CCA. They have been even more annoying than MBNA!

 

xx

 

I wont disagree on that point

[Chalkitup]

Hello Help48xxx and citizenB,

 

Thanks for the eyesight comments ...... they are actually not working on full power today as suffering a little from the dreaded hay fever sore eyes!! But over the last year or so I have learnt that we should really study very carefully all letters and docs we are sent from creditors ..... hence I set to work .... I am about to start my own serious battles with approx eight creditors and I have most of their paperwork back to the mid nineties ..... MBNA being one .... so I laid all their correspondence out on the lounge floor and compared the images you put on here and hence my deductions!!!

 

Mind you ... the scissors cut here thingy is a new one on me!! But that is the great thing with this site .... you learn something every day and the knowledge between the members on here is amazing. I have been fighting peoples rights for years .... from parking tickets to contract scams (I have no legal training) and I enjoy taking the "big boys" on ..... now I am about to start my biggest battles as mentioned above BUT as I always say....

 

Onwards and Upwards

 

Chalkitup

[foolishgirl]

Like it chalkitup! I'm fed up with the bullies too. Until I found this site I thought I was fighting on my own; makes you realise how many little men can make a powerful army.

[Help48xxx]

Hi folks,

 

well Chalk, another thing I did mention ages ago was that the letter from MBNA that contained the CCA said...

'please find enclosed a copy of you application/agreement'

 

Now, my thinking is that this was the application form, which would explain the cut off and send bit. I am therefore hoping that they discard the rest of the form which has the T&C's on. We live in hope!

 

I'll be faxing the paperwork over to Dave at lunchtime, so we'll see what he thinks.

 

Hi-ho hi-ho, it's off to work I go.........

 

xx

 

xx

[davefirewalker]

Hi Help....

 

the fax wasnt as good as I had hoped......I managed to clean it a bit and enlarge it...............

 

we have a problem!

 

if those two pages can be related to one another it looks like its enforceable

 

on th 2nd side of the page below the box with "LOSS OR MISUSE OF CARD" it has a section called finacial and related details

 

in this section it has

 

"we will choose you credit limit and let you know what it is"

 

a bit further down it has about repayments ie min payment of n% or £n and due dates etc.

 

at the bottom and over onto the second half it goes on about percentage rates and examples

 

And towards the bottom on the 2nd half it goes on about charges.....from what I can make out they look like £20, so this may be contempary with the signature side.

 

I've yellow highlighted the various bit that are relevant

 

Ive uploaded them as pdf's so you can enlarge them at will......not too much though they go a bit "pixely".

 

I'll give it another good look.....and perhaps someone else may be able to pass an opinion.

 

rgds

 

Dave

 

 

edit................i'm having trouble uploading the pdf will try again...........

 

helpfax1.pdf

Edited June 27, 2008 by davefirewalker
damned pdf's....grrrrr

[MAGDA]

This looks a lot more like an agreement than mine, I just received an application form (no prescribed terms) and a separate set of their current terms and conditions (showing charges of £12), which I know is the case with quite a lot of people on the forum. My account was opened a number of year ago though (1997) and I think at that time their 'agreements' were in this kind of format. Magda

Edited June 27, 2008 by MAGDA
typo

[Help48xxx]

Hi Dave,

 

thanks for helping me out with this...you're a star!

 

The images on the pdf are pretty much as they are on the copy I got from MBNA...which is why I wasn't happy with them sending them to me in such a state. The T&C's are infinitely better, clear and easy to read.

 

I think therefore that the issue I have with MBNA is that the copy is not good enough for me to be able to read easily and the T&C's are obvioulsy the current version. Let's see if they get back to me about them.

 

I'm going out later, but will be back tomorrow to see what others think.

 

Thanks again,

 

xx

[davefirewalker]

I would say that if the t&c's werent of the same "quality" (ie they are two different docs) then you might have an issue with them. however if any of them are not "easilly legible" then you definetly DO have an issue with them.

 

Keep at them until they send you something that you can read normally

 

funny thing though...I cant see the uploaded pdf......??? it says file not found

 

oh well as long as you can see it

 

Dave

[citizenB]

They are pretty poor quality arent they. I think I remember seeing something pt2537 put up about illegible documents. I will see if I can find it. BRB.

[citizenB]

Sorry, Help.. what I posted here would have been absolutely useless for your situation. See Dave's post next.

Edited June 27, 2008 by citizenB
Losing the plot ..... fast

[davefirewalker]

Whoooaaa

 

I wouldnt send that one without an amazing amount of editing.....

 

I'll try to knock something up a little more simple

 

dave

[citizenB]

Whoooaaa

 

I wouldnt send that one without an amazing amount of editing.....

 

I'll try to knock something up a little more simple

 

dave

 

I had second thoughts about it as well dave, have come back to remove it.

[davefirewalker]

Taken from.....

Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents)Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1557)/2

 

Legibility of notices and copy documents and wording of prescribed Forms

 

2 Legibility of notices and copy documents and wording of prescribed Forms

(1) The lettering in every notice in a Form prescribed by these Regulations and in every copy of an executed

agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall, apart from any signature, be easily legible and of a colour which is readily distinguishable from the .

 

 

 

Ok then send them a letter along the lines of......

 

Dear mbna

 

Thank you for supplying me with what appears to be a very poor copy of the agreement requested under S.77 / 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

However It is almost totally illegible and extremely dificult to make out. I think that you will find that this is NOT acceptabe and I suggest that you send me a legible copy that I can actually read.

 

The Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1557)/2 sets out that all copies sent must be easily legible. This one obviously fails the test. please see below for an excerpt of the relevant legislation

 

Legibility of notices and copy documents and wording of prescribed Forms

 

2 Legibility of notices and copy documents and wording of prescribed Forms

 

(1) The lettering in every notice in a Form prescribed by these Regulations and in every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall, apart from any signature, be easily legible and of a colour which is readily distinguishable from the background medium upon which the information is displayed.

 

I await your timely response

 

yours etc....

 

 

or something like that....just make something up

 

rgds

 

Dave

Edited June 27, 2008 by davefirewalker