council is attempting to claim that they overpaid me housing benefit for the period in which I used to live there

[Alastrum]

Yes, they've made a huge number of mistakes: it's quite clear they're completely incompetent. Even making mistakes in the tribunal document itself, and basic ones too, like getting my NI number wrong. It's not like they don't know it!

 

As for the appeal, I didn't actually appeal myself, as they erroneously neglected to inform me that I could. As they explain in today's letter: "The letter (of 31/1/2008) should have informed you that should you wish to appeal this decision you could do so within 1 calendar month from the date of the letter, unfortunately the letter did not contain your appeal rights for which I apologise. I have therefore considered your letter dated the 3/3/2008 as a letter of appeal and as such have now prepared a submission, a copy of which I enclose, along with the relevant form for you to complete and return to the appeals service should you wish to proceed. Please again accept my apologies for inconvenience caused."

 

I've been onto the JobCentre again today, but can't get through: will try again first thing tomorrow morning.

 

Why, oh why, can dimwits like these get, and keep, their jobs, when I can't even get a job interview? Something's gone very wrong with this country!

Edited September 11, 2008 by Alastrum

[Alastrum]

I've now spoken to the JobCentre in Wigan. They have informed me that, in order to get my file out of the archive, a request has to be made via the Housing Benefit Liaison officer at my old council, to the HB Liaison Officer at the JobCentre. They informed me that because this hasn't been done, my council are following "incorrect procedure", and that the Tribunal process shouldn't go ahead.

 

Anybody got anything to comment on this? I have no idea what should, or shouldn't be happening....

[surprise]

Follow these instructions:

 

Send a letter headed "OFFICIAL COMPLAINT" to the Head of Complaints at your old council re the Housing Benefit Department. You will need to list all the sequence of events and their errors and the omission of the Right to Appeal as without this they shouldn't be going to a Tribunal. Also ensure you state that the letter you sent to them which they are saying was your letter of appeal was not intended for them to take as a letter of appeal. Ask for a written statement on how they have come to their decision. State that in view of the deadline of the appeal you would expect a full response in 7 days, failing this you will involve your MP and the Ombudsman.

[Alastrum]

I have today already written to them, saying:

"Thank you for your letter of 08/09/08, with enclosures. Initially, I welcomed the opportunity of going to a Tribunal, so that we may finally get this matter resolved once and for all. It has, after all, been over a year since we moved from Sutton.

 

However, I have mentioned previously of my attempts to obtain a letter from Makerfield JobCentre Plus in Wigan, that confirms the date they informed you of my move: despite at least four separate requests, they have continually failed to provide me with the letter. Today I contacted them again, and explained the situation. This time they informed me that you cannot take this matter to a Tribunal at this present time, as you are not following the correct procedure. Apparently, you need to make an access request via the Housing Benefit Liaison Officers, in order that my files can be recovered from the archives. As they were clerical files (which you should have known) they are not viewable on the RATS system. Once you have done this, you will be able to see the exact date that Makerfield informed you that I had moved, which, taken in conjunction with my letter of 24/08/07, clearly demonstrates that the Council is in error.

 

Please confirm immediately that the planned Tribunal has been either postponed or cancelled, as I’m told it cannot take place until the required information is obtained according to the correct procedure. Please contact Makerfield JobCentre Plus for confirmation."

 

I will also follow your advice and make an Official Complaint; time to go on the offensive, I think.

[Alastrum]

Just thought I'd post an update to this. I hope it helps and encourages anyone else with similar problems.

Filing an official complaint didn't work: the council (obviously) found itself not at fault in any way. After many further letters going back and forth, a Tribunal date was set for 9th of Jan 2009. The Tribunal service had difficulty obtaining my records of my JSA claim from the DWP, as the council had given them a wrong National Insurance number for me, which led to further delays and exasperation. To cut a long story short, I attended the Tribunal yesterday. The council (despite being only across the road) didn't even bother sending anyone. The Tribunal found the council at fault, and ruled that the majority of the overpayment of £1500 was not recoverable. They ruled however that the final payment we received of £300 was recoverable, as it was at that point we realised that something was amiss and contacted the council. I now await the council's response and suggestions for repayment.

I'm very pleased; the Tribunal judge was very nice and fair, the whole experience was not in any way intimidating, and I was not made to feel like a criminal on trial. And we get to keep £1200 in HB that the council overpayed us.

Thanks are due to everyone who offered advice on this thread: it was a great help. I sincerely hope that's the end of it, and I can now return to normality:)

[surprise]

Well done. The minimum payment they can accept is £3.50 so if they want more and you can't afford it just offer £3.50.

[Alastrum]

Is that £3.50 per week?

[surprise]

yes per week. They usually ask for a lot more so you may have some bargaining to do.

[Alastrum]

We'll see what our finances are like when they actually ask. To be honest, I'd prefer, if circumstances allow, to pay it back as soon as I can just to be done with it and not have to deal with them again. Thanks again for all your help, and best wishes for 2009.

[Alastrum]

My wife and I live in a two bedroom flat, rented from a private landlord, where the rent is paid for by Housing Benefit. Both of us are jobless, although we are both attempting to start our own businesses, using the second bedroom as an office.

Because we're under each other's feet all day, together with our low income, and associated stress levels, this has led to friction between us, and we are considering a trial separation. My wife has expressed the desire to move out and rent somewhere else.

What I need to know is, would the council then say to me: "We're not prepared to pay HB for a 2 bedroom flat when only one person is living there: you will have to move to a 1 bedroom flat yourself".

It's bad enough that we've got to this point anyway, but if I have to move as well it would be even more hassle and stress, and would undermine my fledgling business as it's registered to this address. I'd really like to stay where I am.

[GamekeeperToPoacher]

As I understand it they are not concerned about the number of bedrooms but will pay a maximum rental based on number claiming.

 

GK

[Alastrum]

Ah, I see... so what could conceivably happen is that if one person moves out, the amount of HB they pay goes down accordingly by whatever amount they calculate. This would then, in effect, force me to move out, as I wouldn't be able to afford to pay the shortfall myself... is this correct?

[GamekeeperToPoacher]

Alastrum,

 

That is my understanding but I am no expert on benefits - merely about to put a claim in myself

 

GK

[Alastrum]

Can anyone else add to or confirm what's been said above?

An ideal outcome for us would be if I could stay where I am, and my wife rented somewhere nearby, so that we could have some space away from each other and work on rebuilding our relationship....

[silverfox1961]

It would be worth your finding out what the benefit rates are for one and two bedroom properties in your area. You may find that the rent you are paying for your two bedroom flat is less that the council allows for a one bedroom flat.

[Alastrum]

Thanks for your reply. How do I do that: ask the council? There's no information regarding the actual rates in any of the documentation relating to our claim...

[jackieandwayne]

As I understand it if you are underoccupying a property (NOT a council house - this is different because of the rights that go with that type of tenancy) then HB are only going to pay you for the size of property you need. Therefore they should pay you the local allowance for a one bed flat in that area, and you will have to pay the remainder. It may only amount to a few pounds, depending on where you live.

 

I'm not sure if things have changed now but my elderly parents live in a 2 bed private flat - my mum is a tenant of 60 years standing, she was born there, inherited the tenancy from my grandmother when she died etc. She has had no other home in her entire life, dad came to live here when I was due. In the last few years the council have quibbled over paying them for a 2 bed flat when they only need one bed. We got round that because my dad is in poor health, mum is his carer, and needs her sleep - a lot of dad's illness affects his sleep so they have separate rooms now. This is quite genuine.

 

However, two years ago my mum rang me in tears, HB (on a verification visit)had told her she would have to pay extra rent if she wished to continue living there, out of her pension. This is because it is no longer possible to say that you need two beds for medical reasons! I rang the council and double checked, and sure enough, they were suggesting my mum give up her tenancy and find somehwere else that only had one bedroom - or, get this - would I be willing to pay the extra for them to stay there?!

 

I kept my cool, I wrote to the prime minister instead! And I got a direct reply. He had apparently asked one of his ministers (Or was it minions? can't remember now) to look into it. A week after that we had the head of HB out to my parents house to apologise for any distress caused and pointing out that they hadn;t realised mum had inherited a regulated tenancy which means the rent is set by the fair rent officer, and therefore will never be over the local allowance anyway! They get all their rent paid now - but - DIDN'T KNOW? Rubbish - its only when someone fought back they got their act together - of course they knew, they were just trying it on!

[Alastrum]

Wow, well done for sorting that out! I'm impressed, but it's no more than your parents deserve. It's disgusting the depths to which this penny-pinching will sink, ignoring the real effects it has on people's lives...

 

I just tried to look up the Local Housing Allowance rates on the DWP website, only to find that they're not actually given! How dumb is that? It's beginning to look like they don't actually want you to know: the less you know, the less you can fight back...

[silverfox1961]

Have a look at your local councils website

[Alastrum]

Yes, first place I looked before coming here:)

No definite info there. There is an esitmated benefits calculator, but as it only asks for a few details, it's only a rough estimate, so while it may give an indication, it still could be wildly off. There are no actual figures enabling you to work it out yourself...

[GamekeeperToPoacher]

Hi Alastrum,

 

For what it is worth I was considering a move further south to be closer to my children and I called the HB people there and asked. I was then given the maximum figure that they will pay.

 

I do believe that it varies from area to area.

 

Regards

 

GK

[Alastrum]

Yes, I think I'll have to give them a call, as a last resort. I was hoping I could find out elsewhere before calling them though: I didn't particularly want to alert them to a potential change in our situation before we've decided what to do: past experience has taught me that they tend to suspend benefits while they investigate potential changes in circumstances, and we can't risk this happening!

[GamekeeperToPoacher]

Hi Alastrum,

 

You really don't need to give them any details.

All I did was call up and say "I am claiming JSA and want to move to live nearer my children. My son has found me a private rented but I am concerned that it might be more than you will cover. It is a 2 bed terrace how much will I get towards my rent please."

 

No details etc

 

Regards

 

GK

[DevilWearsPrimark]

All local councils publish their LAH rates here - https://lha-direct.therentservice.gov.uk/Secure/LHARateSearch.aspx?SearchType=LA

[Alastrum]

That's very useful indeed, many thanks.

 

So, I looked up my LHA here, and it seems my local council will pay £260 (I presume this is for a weekly rent) for a 2 bedroomed property, and £200 for a 1 bedroomed property.

 

Now, as I am in a 2 bedroomed, if they pay up to £260, that will be more than enough to cover my full rent, which will mean I won't have to move out. But, will they then insist that as I only "need" one bedroom, they will only pay up to £200 per week? This would mean that I don't get enough to pay my full rent, and would force me to move.