council is attempting to claim that they overpaid me housing benefit for the period in which I used to live there

[surprise]

Even if they have different system in place (which I doubt) did you just send a letter to the job centre to change address or did you send a local authority one too (if so what date)

[Alastrum]

I sent two letters, one to Sutton JobCentre, one to Sutton Council. Both sent around 27/28 August. I also went into my new JobCentre after I'd moved, 5/6 Sept. It seems it was only after I'd been into the new JC that my move was recorded on their system.

[surprise]

you can appeal against the decision to recover the overpayment:

 

I wish to dispute the receovery of the overpayment of Housing benefit, this is because I wrote to you on ?????? copy of letter enclosed and also wrote to the job centre on ?????? - the job centre confirmed that this was actioned on 6/9/07 - please confirm why the local failed to actioned my letter ???? and also failed to action the notification from Job Centre.

 

 

***i do you think you will have to repay this money, you can offer to repay 3.00 per week - they may ask you to fill a finance sheet in -

[Alastrum]

Thanks, I'll give it a go. It's worth a try.

As I said, we have the money untouched, so it's not a problem giving it back in one lump sum, rather than pay it back in small installments. It would just be nice to keep it in compensation for all the hassle and incompetence we got from them (after all, if they'd paid all the HB we were supposed to be entitled to in the first place, we'd never have had to move).

 

Then again, we're in a much nicer flat, in a much nicer area, and with a seemingly competent council now, so I guess every cloud has a silver lining:)

[surprise]

Good luck, let us know how it goes.

[Alastrum]

OK, Happy New Year to everyone, hope you all enjoyed yourselves!

 

I have an update to this situation:

 

On 18th December, I wrote the following letter to my old council, Sutton:

 

You recently wrote to me concerning an alleged overpayment of Housing Benefit, several times citing the reason that I allegedly “failed” to notify the Council of my change of address.

 

I wish to dispute the recovery of the overpayment of Housing Benefit, on the grounds that I did NOT fail to notify you of my impending change of address. I wrote to the Council on 24th August 2007 (which letter was hand-delivered to your offices: copy of letter enclosed) and also wrote to the Job Centre on 17th August 2007 - the Job Centre confirmed that this was actioned on 6th September 2007 (copy of confirmation from Job Centre enclosed).

 

Please confirm why the Council failed to action my letter and also failed to action the notification from the Job Centre.

 

Furthermore, I strongly resent the implication that there has been any impropriety on my part, and would like to remind the Council that it was I who brought this matter to the Council’s attention.

I consider I have fulfilled any obligation in law I may have had to the Council, and if there has been any overpayment, it is entirely the Council that is at fault.

 

I would therefore like to refer you to The Housing Benefit (General) Regulations 1987, Part XIII,

Section 99, where it says:

 

(1) Any overpayment, except one to which paragraph (2) applies, shall be recoverable.

 

(2) This paragraph applies to an overpayment caused by an official error where the claimant or a person acting on his behalf or any other person to whom the payment is made could not, at the time of receipt of the payment, reasonably have been expected to realise that it was an overpayment.

 

(3) In paragraph (2), “overpayment caused by official error” means an overpayment caused by a mistake made or something done or omitted to be done by the appropriate authority or by an officer or person acting for that authority or by an officer of the Department of Health and Social Security or the Department of Employment acting as such where the claimant, a person acting on his behalf or any other person to whom the payment is made did not cause or materially contribute to that mistake, act or omission.

 

It is our belief that

 

1) any “overpayment” was caused by an official error on the part of Sutton Council, due to the Council’s failure to act on the notification of change of address given them by both ourselves and the Job Centre,

 

2) Neither myself nor my wife contributed to the error in any way, as we clearly notified the Council well in advance of our moving,

 

3) any “overpayment” could not have been recognised by us as such, as we were expecting a further payment or payments of an indeterminate amount due to the benefits being paid in arrears.

 

and we therefore consider that Paragraph 2 (above) applies in this instance, and that any “overpayment” is not recoverable.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

 

This letter was sent by RECORDED DELIVERY, and the confirmation that it was delivered on 20th Dec is available on Royal Mail's website.

 

Today I received a letter from Sutton Council, dated 2nd Jan, stating " We have not received your payment or any contact from you regarding this overdue invoice.... Prompt payment will stop us sending your debt to an external Debt Collection Agency or taking legal action."

 

Unbelievable, isn't it? Even recorded delivery letters go "missing"! Still, at least it's a good measure of their incompetence, and further evidence my claim of "official error" is a valid one.

 

What's the best way to follow this up, though?

 

Many thanks.

[surprise]

How practical is it for you to go to hand deliver a letter enclosing your letter of 18 December and proof of delivery. If its not practical then send a further letter attaching a copy of your letter and a copy of the print out from the Royal Mail site. If you do hand deliver a letter get someone to sign to say they have received it. It could be they are trying to play dumb as they have cocked up.

[Alastrum]

It'll have to be a further letter (also Recorded Delivery), as it's not really practical to go there in person now I'm not living in that borough (it would take me about 4 hours round trip by public transport). Besides, they've already "lost" one hand-delivered letter, so I think Recorded Delivery is probably the best way forward.

[Alastrum]

Just a quick update... hadn't heard anything for weeks, then yesterday received a final demand from the Council. I gave them a ring, and was told that it was just an automated letter and I could ignore it: that the letter I sent before Christmas had indeed been received and was "on someone's desk right now".

So I await developments...

[JOSH_IOU]

You won't wanna live where i live in the city of Birmingham, but guess the rents here a way way way lower than where you live? i used to pay £312.46 per month for a one bed housing assocation flat, i now have my own place ( buying ) but the rents here in Brum are quite low dependant on the area.

 

 

The rent in Castle Morpeth for someone claiming DLA and Housing Beneifts is 53 quid a month on Council Rent. Just glad my DLA is for life.

[JOSH_IOU]

Just a quick update... hadn't heard anything for weeks, then yesterday received a final demand from the Council. I gave them a ring, and was told that it was just an automated letter and I could ignore it: that the letter I sent before Christmas had indeed been received and was "on someone's desk right now".

So I await developments...

 

You want this in writing Alastrum.

[Alastrum]

OK, I've finally received some responses from Sutton Council in the form of 2 letters. The first acknowledges the receipt of my letter to them disputing the overpayment, and admits that there "is no trace of the letter you state you hand-delivered to the council". So they have clearly lost it.

 

The letter then goes on to list their records of my contact with them to date. I'm not sure why this information is supplied.

 

They then state that "Taking into account all the information known I do not think you took the reasonable steps to notify us of your change of circumstances within the one month time limit, considering the fact your wife phoned on 28.08.07 to confirm if payments had been made.

 

Regarding your point of impropriety, The council refutes such statement, based on the fact our aim is to provide claimants with a high quality service and accurately determine their award based on information provided or received from the department of works and pension."

 

Huh???? That paragraph doesn't really make any sense. It's presumably related to my remark in my letter denying any impropriety, but when he says he refutes that, does he mean he thinks there HAS been impropriety? And what relation does the rest of the paragraph have to that? It reads badly, as if it has just been cut-and-pasted from somewhere else.

 

He then states:

"If there is an official error as you stated, it is always noted and considered when dealing with any query that suggest an overpaid amount is/was caused due to an official error, which in your case is clearly not."

 

This is a bit odd: he seems to be saying that because they have no record of an official error in my case, therefore one did not take place! Which is sort of like saying that because no-one voted for Gordon Brown he can't possibly be Prime Minister! In any case, he's putting the cart before the horse: my letter to him was pointing out that there must have been an official error, and that they were unaware of it until I did so.

 

The letter ends by stating:

"Nontheless, the overpayment is recoverable as you could reasonably have realised that you were being overpaid. This is in accordance with Regulation 100(2) HB60+81(2) of the housing benefit regulation 2006 and regulation 83(2) CTB60+68(2) of the council tax benefit regulation 2006.

 

Please telephone The Customer Services Team on the number shown above to make an arrangement about repaying the overpaid amount."

 

OK, so that's the first letter. The second letter, from the same assessment officer, asserts that, based on the information I PROVIDED (!!) that I actually moved into my new property on 17th AUGUST 2008 (and not 2nd September, which is when I really moved in), and that therefore they have overpaid me a further £300, which they also want repaying!

 

I can't believe the incompetence of these idiots. They have been repeatedly informed of the dates we vacated the premises in their borough and moved into our new property. We have copies of signed contracts with our new landlord confirming the date of our new tenancy. How can they get a simple thing like this wrong?

 

I'd greatly appreciate any advice as to what I can do to take this forward to a satisfactory conclusion. Many thanks.

[surprise]

Didn't you say somewhere, without me going through the thread, that the Jobcentre notified them. If that is the case get a letter from them advising of the date they were notified. I have emailed my daughter with these responses.

[surprise]

We are getting confused with your dates and what proof you have actually provided. Can you confirm the following:

 

What date did you vacate your old property

What date did you move into your new property

Has there been an overlap on paying rent on the two properties

Did the Job Centre provide you with a letter confirming the date they notified the Council

 

When we have confirmation of the correct dates we can advise you further

[Alastrum]

Sorry for delay: got a touch of flu.

We left the old property on 2nd Sept 07, moved into new property same day.

No overlap of rent.

Letter from JobCentre doesn't explicitly state that they notified the council, only confirms that they actioned the information on 6th Sept. I did explicitly ask for them to put the date they notified the council in the letter, when I spoke to them on the phone, but they have not done so.

[surprise]

You need to get back into with the Job Centre and ask them to put in writing what they actually actioned and what date. Then when you've got this information I would write again to the HB and state that you are not happy with their response, and that they have 14 days for a final response before you put a complaint into the Government Ombudsman.

[Alastrum]

Thanks, I'll get back on to the JobCentre and see what they can do. Part of the problem over access to information seems to be that, because my claim for JSA was a joint claim with my wife, and we were both on different New Deal schemes, according to the JC their computer system isn't set up to cope with that situation, and therefore our claims were switched to clerical administration, which means that they can't readily access the information on the computer.

At least, that's what they tell me on the phone, anyway.

[Alastrum]

Am I correct in believing that someone cannot pass an alleged debt to a DCA, or get a CCJ issued, if I am disputing that any debt is owed at all? Doesn't there need to be an independant tribunal, or some sort of arbitration or 'judgement', that determines that there is in fact an actual debt owed, before this takes place?

[42man]

Yes you are correct although it isn't in law, it is just the OFT's guidelines....which say here... DECPTIVE AND/OR UNFAIR METHODS

 

2.8 -

k. not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or

disputed debt.

[Alastrum]

Great, many thanks!

[willtheywontthey]

can somebody clarify definition or what would constitute 'dispute' and where did quotation come from please? Does passing debt on apply same as 'ceasing collection activity'? Are they not very different definitions? Am also trying to find answer.

[Alastrum]

Well in my case an old council is attempting to claim that they overpaid me housing benefit for the period in which I used to live there. I don't believe they did, so I am disputing that I actually owe them anything at all. I believe I have documentation that proves my case, but instead of them examining the issue, or having a tribunal, or indeed anything at all, they are continuing to harass me for payment, threatening me with CCJ's and DCA's. As I've just clarified, they shouldn't be doing this until it has actually been determined that I do owe them any money.

[maroondevo52]

Hi, Alastrum.

 

Have you tried sending the 'prove it' letter.

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Account no:

 

You have contacted me/us regarding the account with the above reference number, which you claim is owed by myself/ourselves.

 

I/we would point out that I/we have no knowledge of any such debt being owed to (insert company name).

 

I am/we are familiar with the Office of Fair Trading Debt Collection Guidance which states that it unfair to send demands for payment to an individual when it is uncertain that they are the debtor in question.

 

I/we would also point out that the OFT say under the Guidance that it is unfair to pursue third parties for payment when they are not liable. In not ceasing collection activity whilst investigating a reasonably queried or disputed debt you are using deceptive/and or unfair methods.

 

Furthermore ignoring and/or disregarding claims that debts have been settled or are disputed and continuing to make unjustified demands for payment amounts to physical/psychological harassment.

 

I/we would ask that no further contact be made concerning the above account unless you can provide evidence as to my/our liability for the debt in question.

 

I/we await your written confirmation that this matter is now closed. Otherwise I will have no option but to make a complaint to the trading standards department and consider informing the OFT of your actions.

 

I/we look forward to your reply.

 

**Edit to suit**

 

Remember, don’t sign the letter.

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

 

 

Regards.

 

 

Scott.

[Alastrum]

I am now resurrecting this thread as there have been some new developments. I'd be grateful for any advice.

 

OK, since the last post in February very little has happened. I contacted the Job Centre Plus in Wigan and made a request for a letter detailing the dates they would have notified the Council of my moving. I never got the letter, and I tried several times, each time being faithfully promised that it would be sent. No chance. I think they just tell you what you want to hear, then put the phone down and forget it.

 

I didn't hear anything further from the Council either, and I had actually hoped that they'd given up. It is now officially over a year since I moved into my current address.

 

However, today there arrived a large package from my old council, informing me that they intend to take the matter to the Tribunals Service. The letter goes on to state that their letter of 31 January 2008 should have informed me of my right to appeal, but failed to do so, and that they apologise for this. The enclosed documents, which they presumably intend to place before the Tribunal as 'evidence' contain erroneous (my NI number is wrong!) information, and supposition without regard to actual fact.

 

Apparently I have 14 days to respond to this.

 

Anybody got any ideas?

Surely, after all this time, it ought to be dropped? Isn't there a statute of limitations on this sort of thing? In any case, does anyone know how these Tribunals operate? Will I get a fair hearing, and a chance to state my case, or is it a foregone conclusion?

 

Any advice gratefully received.... many thanks.

[surprise]

Claimants get a very fair hearing - you can state your case - also

contact the Job centre again - and tell them it is going to tribual and

that you will be contacting your MP if you get no repsonse within 5

working days -

 

You must have appealed against the decision as the authority wouldn't

just take a case to tribual - unless you are out of time to appeal! - if

you are out of time to appeal and the LA made the mistake of not giving

your rights then surely they should have sent you a letter giving you

the rights to appeal within one calendar month - I think the tribual

will be in your favour given the mistakes this authority as made