Disabled & Scared! Owe 20k to Halifax!**WON** DISCONTINUED AND WROTE OFF

[HalifaxPickle!]

Hello Again!

 

Well no sign of the CCA yet and their time is due up on Monday 12th May 2008. What do I do Monday? Is there a letter I can prepare stating that the debt is now in dispute?

 

What does this actually mean once Monday comes? This will be the 12+2 days on the 12th May.

 

Thanks

 

HP

[citizenB]

If the company hasnt provided you with the document you requested you are not legally obliged to pay them any money until such times as they do.

 

I wil try and find a 'follow up' letter for you.

[citizenB]

Here you go. The original author, I believe is Curlyben.

 

Where I have put red crosses, put in the dates you sent your letter/when it was received by them (from the Royal Mail Track n Trace info) and work out when the 30 CALENDAR days is up

 

The sentence in green... If you would feel more comfortable continuing to make payments rather than not.. you could remove this and say something like.. I will continue to make a goodwill gesture payment of £ XX XXX However you are under no obligation to make a payment to them until they produce the document.

Reminder for request for copy of credit agreement under Section 77/78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

I wrote to you recently requesting a true copy of any signed, executed credit agreement in relation to the above account. This is my right under Sections 77 and 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 on payment of a fee of £1.00. This payment was included with my original request.

 

Under the above Act, a creditor has 12 working days to supply this document to the debtor. Royal Mail confirms that you signed for this letter on XXXXXXXX 2008 and so this deadline expires on XXXXXXX 2008 Thus far I have received no response to my request. This means that you are currently in default of my request. Whilst your default continues, you are not entitled to enforce any part of this alleged agreement.

 

This includes, but is not limited to, the following:

You may not demand any payment on this account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

You may not add any further interest or charges to this account.

You may not pass this account to any third party.

You may not register any information in respect of this account with any of the credit reference agencies.

You may not issue a default notice related to this account.

Please also note that to register information with the credit reference agencies, or to issue a default notice, would also be in breach of Section 13.6 of The Banking Code, which stipulates that you can only register such information if the amount owed is not in dispute.

 

You have a further calendar month from the expiration of the 12 working days to rectify your default. Therefore, I must receive the document I have requested by XXXXXXXXXX 2008 Failure to meet this deadline is a criminal offence and will be reported to the relevant authorities. If you do not have any signed agreement in relation to this account, please confirm this in writing.

 

I will be making no further payments to this account until this matter is resolved to my satisfaction. It would be a breach of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 for you to continue to take any action against this account whilst this default remains.

 

Please conduct all communication with me regarding this account in writing only. For your convenience, I include a copy of my original request letter. All letters have been sent to you by Recorded Delivery so I can prove that you received them if necessary.

 

I look forward to your swift response.

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

 

 

 

 

[HalifaxPickle!]

Thanks very much!

 

Do you think it would be better to make the payment as a goodwill gesture? Will it look better on me?

 

Thanks

 

HP

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello HP!

 

I'd stop Paying them.

 

If they cannot be bothered to send you a Copy of the very thing that they are relying on to make you Pay, then you should just stop Payments until such time as they do.

 

It's your Legal Right. Provided you have been polite and reasonable, nobody will find any fault in you for stopping Payment.

 

The alleged Debt is effectively in a state of Limbo during the CCA Request. Time stands still as far as the Debt goes, and it does not start moving again until such time as they produce an Enforceable Agreement.

 

Failure to produce a Copy of the alleged Agreement within 12 Working Days, is a clear Dispute. Whilst in Default of your Request and so in Dispute, they cannot add Interest, Charges or Demand Payment. No Agreement also means they lose any rights to process your Data, so cannot say nasty things about you to the Credit Reference Agencies.

 

Watch out, however, as there is a Troll lurking on this Thread (a banker/Debt Collector), so don't be alarmed if you see a less sympathtic Post at any stage.

 

Please just enjoy another Weekend, this one looks to be a nice one, so put this out of your thoughts until next Week.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[HalifaxPickle!]

Thanks!

 

What do I state if they call me?

 

HP

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello HP!

 

Well, my initial advice would be to say thank you for calling, but please keep this in Writing Only!

 

What I tend to do, is once they go over the 12 Working Days, I send them a follow up Letter that tells them they are in Default of my Request. It's polite, and just makes it clear that whilst they are in Default of my CCA Request, the Account is in Dispute. I will therefore stop Paying them until such time as they comply with my Legal Request. I am no longer obliged to Pay them and they must not seek Payment either.

 

The thing is HP, you must not feel like the injured party to this. The Law is there to protect you. The Agreement is the Document they will all too readily use against you if given half a chance.

 

So, if they have been careless enough to lose that Document, or have never had a properly Executed one in the first place, then they only have themselves to blame. They are a huge banking group, so you would think they can get their act together to handle the Paperwork!

 

All you have done is exercise your right to ask to see a Copy of this key Document. The Law says they have 12 Working Days to come up with it, which is quite reasonable, bearing in mind how important it is. If they have lost it, how careless is that!

 

Without it, they cannot Force you to Pay. You are also not required to Pay once they fail to come up with it within 12 Working Days! If they can't find it within another Month, the Law regards them as being very silly indeed and can impose a fairly large Fine of around £2,500 for being so clueless.

 

The thing to understand is that you are not being unreasonable. On the contrary, they are being very unreasonable IF they Call you to Demand Payment when they have lost or misplaced their Authority to do so.

 

It's quite rude of them in fact so, if they Call, I'd just get their name, make a note of the Date and Time, and tell them to please Keep Everything in Writing.

 

If they call you more than once in any Week, that can be regarded as Harassment. A series of Calls will be regarded as Harassment.

 

That's also another issue, but if they start to Call you, especially while the alleged Account is in Dispute, then it's Harassment. It tells you they are not nice people, as they are simply disregarding the Law in doing so.

 

This is why many here, including myself, say Keep It In Writing at all times when dealing with these people.

 

If you get a Polite one, they can be just as Polite via Letter as they can via Telephone.

 

However, if you get a nasty one, then forcing them to use a Letter will clean up their act! The nasty ones find themselves somehow unable to be quite as nasty when writing things down on Paper. Funny that, but they come over much more Polite. Writing must be Therapeutic for them!

 

Indeed, the nasty ones can't Write very well, so they'll tend to give that to the ones who can Write, who tend to be nicer, being a little more educated.

 

But, seriously, there's nothing you need to State if they Call you. The act of Calling you is already a form of Harassment, so don't feel obliged to start saying anything to them, well, other than:

 

"Hello, how jolly nice of you to Call but, please Write instead there's a good lass/lad, Goodbye."

 

Do think Letters from now on, as it will get another layer of hassle away from you. The prospect of them Calling you is clearly causing you some concern, otherwise you would not have asked this.

 

So, regard any Calls from them as a monsterous inconvenience, and you may then begin to regain control over your own Telephone as well. It is your Line and, when they Call, they are wasting both Your Time and Your Telephone Line Rental.

 

Please remember that when they Call you, they are Trained, and have a Script to work with. They have your Finances and Details on Screen. The moment you pick up the Call, you are at a disadvantage. You may have just woken up, or walked in the Door. You won't be in any way prepared for a semi-literate semi-Skilled Debt Extraction Negotiator obsessed with your Debit Card.

 

All of this goes away when you force them to Write instead.

 

Have good relaxing Weekend, and next Week I'm sure more things will start to come good for you.

 

All the best.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[HalifaxPickle!]

Thanks

 

HP

[HalifaxPickle!]

Hi

 

I am confused again..sorry! The 12+2 days are up tomorrow (12th May)...what would the dates be for the 30 days to put in the follow up letter????

 

Thanks

 

HP

[babybear39]

The 30 days are 30 calendar days (unless the last day falls on a Sunday) so that would be Thursday 12th June.

[HalifaxPickle!]

Thanks

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello HP!

 

I think it's sooner than that, as the +2 is unofficial. They have 12 Working Days, not 12+2. The +2 is just something you should allow to cover things if they Posted on the 12th Working Day. They are sort of allowed to do that and be deemed to have complied. So, watch out for Back-Dated Letters, and KEEP ALL ENVELOPES, a Franking Mark may prove that they Posted past the Deadline, so failed to Comply as required. The Barcodes on Envelopes may also be useful, and I'm working on trying to see how to read them (i.e. the Orange Barcodes printed by Royal Mail on some Letters).

 

Thus, if your 12 Working Days expired on the 8th May, then the +30 starts from then. That makes it the 8th June, indeed, it could be argued that it's the 7th June, as that would be 30 whole Days after the 8th May. You do not need to allow for the Bank Holiday on the 26th May either, as it's 30 Calendar Days, not 30 Working Days.

 

By all means allow another couple for Postage just to be sure, but the +30 Deadline is the 7th/8th June as the +30 Days starts bang on the 12 Working Day Deadline, not the +2.

 

However, many would say DON'T REMIND them about the +30 Days. It's not your job to help them to comply. They are big enough, old enough and without doubt ugly enough to look after themselves.

 

Let them blow the +30 Day Deadline, as it will be in your favour if they do. If you start saying what they must do, that may just encourage them to actually do it in time, which is not really what you want.

 

If you do Write to them (and some would say don't bother, let them hang themselves), the main issue is to say they are in Default of your CCA Request after the 12 Working Days, so the alleged Account is clearly in Dispute. They can't then add Interest, Charges, or chase you for Payment, and you have no Obligation at that point to Pay them, as there is now some doubt that an Enforceable Agreement exists. As they also need that to have your Authority to handle and process your Data, that Right goes out of the Window too. They no longer have any Authority in that respect, until such time as they correct their Default and produce the Agreement Requested.

 

No need to remind them about the +30 Days, let them figure that one out for themselves!

 

I'd be inclined to wait until the Post on, say, the 14th, and if nothing shows, send them a Recorded Delivery Letter making it clear that the alleged Account is now in Dispute and so no further Payments will be made whilst they are in Default of your CCA Request. I'd head the Letter FORMAL COMPLAINT as well, just to ram home that they are now the ones who are Legally in the wrong.

 

The Consumer Credit Act 1974 is there to Protect YOU, and this is the start of it doing just that.

 

I'd also add a couple of Paragraphs to remind them of the Telephone Harassment issue and, at the same time, withdraw the right to send Callers. If you have already done that, reminding them again will do no harm.

 

Please do Log all Telephone Calls by Date/Time/Number and Message (if any), and keep ALL Envelopes and Letters. Harassment is not acceptable, and could potentially add an additional weapon in your Defence Arsenal that can be used against them when the time comes.

 

Harassing someone Disabled and Scared will go down like a Brick Budgie when a Judge reviews your Harassment Claim. The Compensation could well wipe out any alleged Debt that may or may not exist at the end of all this.

 

I hope that makes sense.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[car2403]

It's actually one calendar month - so from the 2nd to the 2nd, if that's the dates. It's not 30 days.

 

12 working days + 2 to respond

offence committed one calendar month after that date

[babybear39]

I stand corrected *blush*.

 

If the 12 + 2 runs out on 12th May, would the calendar month be from 13th May until 13th June?

[citizenB]

I stand corrected *blush*.

 

If the 12 + 2 runs out on 12th May, would the calendar month be from 13th May until 13th June?

 

 

That is the way I would count them babybear

[car2403]

I stand corrected *blush*.

 

If the 12 + 2 runs out on 12th May, would the calendar month be from 13th May until 13th June?

 

I'd say it's the 12th to the 12th.

 

To be honest, it doesn't matter, because if they haven't replied now, they probably aren't going to. It also doesn't add any value to your case that they are in default of the 2nd timescale - unless of course you're prepared to bring a private prosecution in the Magistrates' Court, which would probably bankrupt anyone attempting it on costs alone. I'd advise against that, unless you have sought professional legal advice and are a millionaire with nothing better to do! You can't rely on the OFT to take your case up, as we at CAG know that doesn't happen.

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello HP!

 

It's actually one calendar month - so from the 2nd to the 2nd, if that's the dates. It's not 30 days.

 

12 working days + 2 to respond

offence committed one calendar month after that date

 

Apologies for any confusion, Car2403 is almost certainly more accurate, so run with the 12+2 then +1 Month. I believe the +2 is to allow for Postage, but no matter, the key is getting them clearly over the first Deadline.

 

It's nothing to get too upset about, as writing back to them is not something you must do on Monday. The key is to wait until you are sure they are past the key first 12 Working Day Threshold.

 

The problem is these bankers may try to bend that first key Deadline, by Dating a Letter to make it appear that it fell within the Deadline, but actually posting it after their allowed timescales. I've seen this done to me, and I have a Letter dated within the Deadline, but posted and Franked well after it. In my case, the Deadline was around the 14th, their Letter was Dated the 10th, but Franked on the 17th and arrived 3 Days after that! They may well have Posted it on the 18th. Who were they trying to kid? Well, a Judge for one, but they were not expecting me to keep the Envelope they Franked on the 17th!

 

A small victory, but it puts them clearly in Default. The fact that they sent me a joke CCA was all the more funny!

 

So, I didn't see anything from them until 6 Days past the Deadline...and yet they tried to make it look as though they had complied 10 days before I saw anything!

 

There's a Rabbit away, clearly. So give it a reasonable timescale after the Deadline (12+2 is all you need), and then, if you want to write, do so.

 

After writing, keep an eye out, as they may try to send a Back-Dated Letter in response. If you get on with your Postman, you could ask them for a week or so after the 12 Working Days to sign and date your Envelopes if you do receive any Letters that look to be from a Bank.

 

The point of them back-dating Letters is to try and look good later on, to give the impression that they complied in time. To fight that, you just need their Franked/Barcoded Envelopes and a handy signature from a Postman/Witness could just add the final touch you need to undermine that.

 

Next Week is important in that respect, so do keep an eye out for anything coming in, and try to date the Delivery of anything Important via the Postman or other Witness.

 

The fact that nothing has yet arrived, is a very good sign.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[PriorityOne]

There's a lot of chat on here about CCA timescales, but in reality they mean very little. If a creditor/DCA manages to produce an enforceable Agreement after the timescales, then they will probably enforce it.... and the company will be fined diddly-squat. So, don't rely on any timescales to protect you because they won't.

 

If an Agreement does turn up at some stage, the best thing would be to scan it up on here (blanking out personal details) and we can check it out for you. A lot of these supposed Agreements are not enforceable anyway.

[car2403]

Couldn't agree more, P1 - the Act is clear in that they can only enforce the agreement once they are no longer in default of the request. The problem they have is now finding an enforceable agreement!

 

The issue is though, that this could rumble on and on and on forever. As they don't have to try to seek enforcement, any defaults recorded, penalty charges applied and damage caused to the OP will remain unresolved.

 

For me, I would be issuing a claim against them for a s.142 declaration that the debt is unenforceable by Court order. If the agreement is enforceable, (once their hand has been forced to disclose it) it probably will be enforced against you in a counterclaim. If it isn't enforceable, you can enforce your rights to have the situation remedied.

 

It all depends on how serious you are in achieving what it is you want to achieve. The process does have its pitfalls, however.

 

BTW - I'm talking from experience here, so take a look at my threads (link in my sig) and the threads of others in similar situations to you before deciding what action to take. That's the best advice you can get in this situation, IMHO.

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello HP!

 

PriorityOne and Car2403 are both quite correct.

 

However, the here and now remains an issue. And, right here, right now, it looks like you have a Creditor who has been asked to produce the very Agreement upon which they are relying to make you Pay something, and they have, so far, failed to come up with it.

 

No matter what they can or can't do if/when they find that now alleged Agreement, once they go past that first 12 Working Day Deadline, you can stop Paying them.

 

Sadly, that is about all that the 12 Working Day Deadline is good for, but it's a start nevertheless.

 

The main benefit of writing to advise them of this fact, is that it nails your position down, showing anyone that looks at this matter down the line, that you acted wholly appropriately.

 

You did not just stop Paying them because you were irresponsible, you stopped because, having asked them to see the alleged Agreement, they could not come up with it.

 

From your position, you sent them a CCA Request in Writing. Waited 12 Working Days +whatever on Top to be sure, and then declared, also in Writing, that in the absence of an Agreement, you felt you had no sensible option but to stop Payment. Nobody can dispute that, as you are being 100% Legal.

 

The CCA Request should put the alleged Debt into Limbo and, after 12 Working Days, Payments can Legally stop until such time as they do find the now alleged Agreement.

 

The Creditor can, and probably will, continue to bother you for Payment, despite the fact that they should not. That is the whole point at this stage. You have now adopted the moral high ground, whereas they have lost it the moment they continue to press for Payment once over the 12 Working Day Deadline and still in Default of your CCA Request.

 

Any continued Collection Activities from that point will definately be seen as Harassment. That is then an issue that can be used against them. Indeed, the Compensation for that may well wipe out the Debt if they are very silly and ignore your Written Requests to desist.

 

OK, if they do eventually find the Agreement, the Debt's clock starts ticking again, and it can re-start where it left off. They can then resume Legal Enforcement. But, while they were in Default of your CCA Request, any Charges and Penalties they added during the Default should not have been applied, and your Letter Writing Audit Trail is the evidence you need to confirm this. Add to that any Harassment they imposed upon you during the Default, and all of this will all be seen in a very bad light should they ever take you to Court.

 

The first Deadline, in the context of the above, is an important one. It moves you from being someone that is living under a dark cloud, to someone where the skies have cleared a little, where the wind starts blowing more gently and in your favour.

 

Think of it as Legal Breathing Space. From now on, when the Phone Rings, you now know it should not be from the bankers, as they are not now supposed to Call you. If a Letter arrives chasing Payment, again, you now know it is not appropriate for them to send such requests.

 

This can, and should, change your outlook on this.

 

The matter at hand then will be to curtail their Collection Activities (whilst in Default of your CCA Request), and also to Log and eventually Curtail any Harassment that the above Collection Activities may involve.

 

If they persists, then just try to organise your life such that the effect is reduced, where possible. Do not speak to them on the Phone, ever, and adopt a more offensive attitude to any Letters you receive that needlessly chase Payment to which they are currently not entitled (whilst in Default of your CCA).

 

People here will help you to plan your next move, which could be a simple Defence should they find the Agreement, to other steps, depending now on what the bankers do whilst remaining in Default of your CCA Request.

 

I do hope that explains the position. I'm sure everyone helping does not want this Thread to turn into a discussion of the Legalities (note to all, please address all Posts to HP, as the whole point is to try and help HP).

 

Cheers,

BRW

[HalifaxPickle!]

Now I am really confused:?....so the dates dont matter?

 

I have sent the second letter off today by SD as the 12+2 days were up today and I received nothing in the post.

 

I am going into hospital this week for about 2 weeks so wanted to send it as I thought I needed too. This is just all really getting to me and I really do want to pay the debt but I cant aford much each month as I am full dependant on benefits.

 

I am sorry to be such a nuisance.

 

HP

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello HP!

 

Please do not be unduly alarmed.

 

The Dates DO matter, but the first 12 Working Day Deadline matters more to you, and the 2nd +30 Day Deadline matters more to them, not that they seem to care much about being in Criminal Default of a Formal Legal Request.

 

Just concentrate on that first Deadline, as once over that, you are no longer required to Pay them anything until such time as they come up with the Agreement you have Legally requested.

 

No Agreement = No Enforceable Debt.

 

After that 1st Deadline, without an Agreement, they are not supposed to ask you for Payment...again, until such time as they can find the Agreement.

 

The Telephone Calls should now stop, and the Payment Demand Letters should also stop. If not, because they have lost the Right to seek Payment for as long as they have lost the Agreement, any such action will be regarded as Harassment, so please Log/File them, as their actions can be used against them.

 

You've now done all you can do for now so, please try to relax now, and by all means keep popping in here to ask for Clarification and Advice.

 

Your only task now is to Monitor what Letters they send, and ignore any Telephone Calls they make. Just Log them and keep a record if you can.

 

Any Threatening Letters just asking for Payment and nothing else, can be ignored and Filed under Harassment.

 

All you now need to keep an eye open for is any sign of an Agreeement, and any sign of Legal Threats such as Defaults and any Letters that seem to be written by a human as opposed to by a Computer. If they have something to say, let the people here know, and I'm sure the issues will be clarified for you.

 

Whatever arrives, run it past the people here, and you will get good advice.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[Enron]

Don't worry about it, there are lots of people here to help and support you.

 

Once the 12+2 day deadline has passed you can stop payments.

 

And if and when they come up with an agreement we can have a serious look through it to find any weaknesses - which is normally the case that something is missing.

 

Until then don't worrk, if they havent come up with the agreement they shouldnt be chasing you for arrears or payments, harassing you by phone - as if they do they break the law in trying to enforce the agreement CCA 1974 s78(6).

[car2403]

I'd just like to throw my two-penth worth in at this point. (Again!)

 

The fact they are in default of your request does not mean that you don't owe them money. Any debt under the agreement will still stand and you will still owe them that outstanding balance.

 

The point of the default is that they can't enforce the debt against you, in a Court. That doesn't stop them pestering the life out of you to get you to pay, though.

 

Also, payment after a CCA request default is a question of morals - you can't say "you don't have to pay them", because you do have to pay. They just can't enforce the debt against you. If you choose to pay or not, that has to be a question for the OP. CAG will never advise to avoid a legitimate debt. It seems this is a legitimate debt, so that applies here.

 

Of course, as there's no legal right to enforce the debt, the OP needs to make the decision as to whether to continue making payments under the agreement or not. Bear in mind, they will **probably** try to find the agreement if you stop payment and they intend to take you to Court.

 

If that happens, they do find the agreement and they do take you to Court and win, how will the Judge see you not making payments? On the other hand, if you make payments that are realistic, given your circumstances, the Judge is unlikely to allow them to enforce an agreement anyway, so long as those payments are realistic and all that you can afford. Any creditor doesn't deserve a CCJ in those instances.

 

It's a tough call to make, but I want everyone to be aware of the impact not making payments may have, should the worst happen.

[babybear39]

HP, you and your family are the most important people in this. Take care and best wishes *hugs* BB