Mr Sharpman v Argos

[SharpmanTF1]

Hi peeps

 

Sent CCA regquest to Argos, slipped passed the 12 day +2 deadline so I sent them a fax to remind them. short day later I got a letter from 'Home Retail Group Plc' who I'm assuming own Argos.

 

The following Letters are the result.

 

-----

 

Could someone please peruse the letter and explain the implications.

 

They also sent out some other documents but they were what appears to be summary sheets with key info like you'd get on terms and conditions.

 

Enclosure 1 is supposed to be the one inforce when the account was opened. and enclosure 2 is the current terms and conditions. No where on the documents does it have information like - account number, Debtors details, ie name at the very least. Nor is there a space on the document for this to appear.

 

I need some one to explain what this means in terms of them proving they have an executed document.

 

If they don't prove this what would a good response be to get this information.

 

Thanks in advance

 

Sharpman

[SharpmanTF1]

Bump .....

[steven4064]

The agreement should have on it:

 

1) the APR

2) your credit limit or how you will be told what it is

3) the minimum monthly payments or how they will be determined

 

To be properly executed it must also have your name, full postal address and signature (technically it should have their name and address and signature too).

 

If enclosure 1 has the 3 things above, then they have complied (albeit late) with your CCA request. You could write and thank them for what they have sent and ask them how they know it is you that owes them this money since they have removed any odentification from the agreement. Point out that what they have sent may well comply with s78(1) of the CCA 1974 but does not proved that you owe them anything. See what they say to that.

[jellybabe]

Hi, i know this thread has been sitting still for a while, but any news on this? I've had the same letter and Enclosure 1&2 sent to me, and wondered what you replied to them.

Here are my Threads:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/store-cards/147294-jellybabe-argos-rd-2-a.html

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/store-cards/148011-jellybabe-argos-hubbys-account.html

[SharpmanTF1]

Argos have passed me over to our friends at moorcroft.

 

I sent the following to Argos as they did not fully comply with my CCA request that I sent a few months back.

 

Mr. XX XXXX

XX XXXXXXXXX

XXXXXXXXX

XXXXXXX

 

Home retail Group Plc

Avebury

489 – 499 Avebury Boulevard

Milton Keynes

MK9 2NW

 

Account in dispute

 

 

Customer service Manager,

 

Account Number: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

Your Reference: xx/xx Dated xxxxxxxxxx reply to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

I note that you have replied to the above by sending copies of your companies Terms and conditions. I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with the request and that your company is still in default under the act.

To clarify, just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a "true copy" of the agreement.

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;

As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, "the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form." This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

Section 2 (2)(a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;

And more importantly

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.

The regulations state:

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations there under as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document; this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should be presented in form and content as required by the regulations.

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.

It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the default continues

 

Yours faithfully

 

Signed

Mr Sharpman

 

That was sent on 26/08/08, Signed for on 29/08/08 So just waiting now for their reply.

[SharpmanTF1]

Ok,

 

Got this back from Argos in reply to previous post.

 

Dear Mr Sharpman

 

Thank you for your recent undated letter.

My previous correspondence did provide you with the information required for us to fulfil our obligations under s78 Consumer Credit Act 1974. As I explained at that time, The Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 explains what must be included in the copy agreement. Regulation 3 provides that the copy may omit certain information, including the signature box and your name and address. I trust that the above clarifies matters but if you do require further information, or a further copy of my previous correspondence then please let me know.

 

Customer Service Manager

 

From my interpretation of schedule 3 (but thats just me) is when a document is sent to a customer to sign they should send 2 copies. the second copy need not have the name, address and signatory box as that is the customers copy. and only needs to send a signed copy back to the creditor.

Well that's my slant on it.

 

Does anybody know a way to get them to actualy send a copy of the said CCA document?

 

To me there is no way of knowing whether the stuff she sent me in any way relates to the account in question. Unless there is a name and address on there with a signature then how can they say this is the aggremment that I signed and agreed to?

 

Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks

 

Sharpman.

[SharpmanTF1]

Ok, Decided to go with A S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) to force their hand to see if this will produce the document I requested. Also to see what charges have been levied on the account.

 

Sharpman.

[SharpmanTF1]

sar Delivered 40 days and counting.

[MrShed]

I would be inclined to write back to them something along the lines of:

 

The CCA does allow for the omission of this information. However, you are not prohibited from sending this information. As you are pursuing for an alleged debt, you are obligated to prove such a debt upon request, otherwise it is unenforceable. In this specifc case, such a debt can only be proven by showing that it was myself who signed for this credit with yourself, and as such requires a copy of the form WITHOUT the signature, name and address omitted.

 

Until such proof is received, I am unable to discuss the matter any further.

 

Bear in mind this isnt my forte!

[lihi]

Hi Sharpman

 

I'm locked into a battle with Argos currently as well, it's been a year since they've had any money from me.

 

Unlike you I was given a copy of the 'application form' as you though all my details were displayed. Lucky for me for a small period of time I worked on the same floor as trading standards and their advice was priceless, the form is an application form and is unforceable! I have the same letter as you upstairs that is attached to your first thread. They refused to respond to any of my points and offered me £60 off the debt as good will, I told them where to go. They passed on to Experto who after one letter sent it onto Incaso and after they got one letter they sent it back to Experto, prior to this I transfered my compliant about the non-compliant CCA to FOS who said it wasn't their remit and passed it to FLA who were completely useless and I've been sharing letters and I've finally got fed up and written to my local Trading Standards but as yet no response, if they don't help me out I'll put the complaint through Consumer Direct and let OFT know what's going on as well.

 

I support MrShed's letter, also remind them that they will need to produce the original document in court should the matter escalate.

[SharpmanTF1]

Was thinking of sending something along these lines.

 

 

I received your letter and have noted its contents.

 

The letter does not clarify matters as assumed.

I cannot understand, if a document exists, why you are hindering matters by withholding important information which would clear up the situation in a heartbeat

.

Unless, for some reason the document has been mislaid or destroyed, then I would appreciate a photocopy of the document to ascertain the contents.

 

As previously mentioned in an earlier letter, the document that was sent in response to my legitimate CCA 1974 request merely leads to further questions. There is no way of confirming the constructed document is in fact the document that was allegedly signed when this account was started.

 

So, I take you up on your offer and am requesting further information in the form of a ‘True Copy’ in its entirety, containing ALL information, without any omissions.

 

Until such time as I receive the document I requested I will still hold this account in dispute.

 

I hope this clarifies matters.

 

Sharpman.

[SharpmanTF1]

bump

[SharpmanTF1]

Update

sent S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) dated 10th sept

signed for 11th sept

 

no response as of 30th sept.

 

Apart from nice letter from moorcroft.

 

feel a cca request coming on.

 

will be doing that tomorrow.

 

Sharpman

[lihi]

Hi Sharpman

 

sorry your thread updates have not sent me any notifications.

 

I would send them another polite letter reminding them they have not issued the SAR information giving them a further 7-14 days depending on how you feel, then issue them a LBA (letter before action) giving them 7 days and if they still don't respond issue an N1 to the courts. I did it to Woolwich when they ignored my SAR, they responded to the form that they would defend in full, 1 week later I had a message on my phone from their legal department telling me she would get the information to me the next day and she emailed it to me as well for good measure. I also got my court fee back and an extra £10 for costs (didn't want to be greedy just wanted the info).

 

What address are you sending everything to?

[SharpmanTF1]

What address are you sending everything to?

 

sent it to data controler

at

home retail group card services ltd

489-499 avebury boulevard

saxon gate west

central milton keynes

bucks

mk9 2nw

 

They have until about 22nd oct to supply.

 

Sharpman

[lihi]

I send mine to Argos address below, sometimes I'd get a response back from them and other times from the home retail group.

Argos

Royal Avenue

Widnes

WA88 1AP

[SharpmanTF1]

Update

 

CCA'd Moorcroft 13/10/08

 

maybe they'll shed some light as to wether argos have a valid cca.

[steven4064]

Don't hold your breath

[SharpmanTF1]

Can breath now

Recieved a nice letter from Mrs K Dyde along with my £1.00 postal order.

 

The gist of the letter is......

 

Thank you for your request blah blah blah.........

At this stage we are currently unable to provide a copy of the agreement as we have been in contact with our client (ARGOS) who have confirmed that to obtain a copy blah blah blah ....

I must put a request in writing to blah blah blah.......... ( OC address )

 

So, I guess they're shirking their obligations then.

 

Could anybody suggest a strongly worded response for mrs K Dyde.

[SharpmanTF1]

bump

[creditcardmug]

Hi re your PM, i think this is the letter you were looking for,

 

I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE ANY DEBT TO YOUR COMPANY OR ANY COMPANY YOU CLAIM TO REPRESENT

 

 

Re: Account no: xxxxxxxx

 

This letter is a formal request pursuant to s.77/78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. I require you to provide me with a true copy of the credit agreement relating to the above account, together with any other documentation the Act requires you to provide.

 

I expect you to comply fully and properly with this request, within the statutory time limit. You are reminded that should you fail to comply with my request, the provisions of s.77(6) will apply.

 

If it is your view that you are not the creditor, s.175 of the CCA 1974 applies in the case of a simple assignment, and places a duty upon you to pass this request to the creditor. In the case of an absolute assignment, you are a creditor as defined by s.189. If you contend that you purchased the rights but not the duties of any agreement, you are reminded that s.189 of the Act is clear that an assignment is of both rights and duties.

 

Your attention is drawn to ss.5(2), 3(b), 6 and 7 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (CPUTR).

 

I enclose a postal order in the sum of £1.00, which is the statutory fee. Note that these funds are not to be used for any other purpose.

 

If you are unable to comply fully and properly with this request, you should confirm this in writing at the earliest opportunity, and certainly within the statutory time limit for compliance, and return the fee.

 

If you do not understand this letter, you should seek professional advice.

[SharpmanTF1]

Yep CCM that looks as though it should do the trick.

 

I would have thought, as Moorcroft are a 'big player' in the debt collection business and would have processed umpteen hundreds of these requests you would have thought they should know it doesn't wash any more.

 

Shall be sending the letter of as soon as.

 

thanks

 

Sharpman.

[creditcardmug]

They never seem to read any of mine, they just keep sending out the next in the series from the threat-o-matic.

[SharpmanTF1]

good news - those nice ppl at moorcroft are 'unable to provide a copy of the signed credit agreement' and have passed it back to the OC.

 

scratch one dca.

bring it on Argooos

[creditcardmug]

They recently passed mine on to fredericksons (while still in dispute), it only took one strongly worded letter and they have just washed their hands of it!

 

So i wonder which bottom feeder gets it next, ive had moorcroft noe fredericksons, how much lower can you go (dont answer that)