HSBC, has this PPI been mis sold please

[freakyleaky]

Hi Citizen. Looks like you are doing ok now. As HHNF said don't agree to anything that is unacceptable to you. Let us know what happens next.

[citizenB]

Thank you both HHNF and freakyleaky. The call will be made at 9.05am on Monday morning, I will hot foot it over here as soon as the call has finished

[citizenB]

FURHTER UPDATE.

 

Spoke to the chap at HSBC this morning. The outcome of the call is that the Direct Debit Mandate will be cancelled therefore no more charges racking up. HSBC will refund all the charges made from December to date amounting to some £300.00 plus the 2 x PPI payments + interest on those payments.

 

Now the scary bit. They still want DH to go into the branch to sign off on the amended loan ie with out the PPI. At the same time they want me to speak to a Financial Advisor because I have explained that we will still not be able to pay the full monthly payment on the loan having now set inplace a Self administering DMP.

 

However, only 4 of the creditors have come back with properly executed agreements. so do I tell HSBC that I am waiting on the others to prove the debts exist (especially as one of them is an HSBC credit card).

 

I think I am now a little bit out of my depth, with no water wings

[dx100uk]

no you're doing fine.

but there are couple of things you now need to consider..........

it would be wrong to think that not having the correct paperwork is a way to avoid paying any outstanding debt, and you must honestly consider if there is a resonable expectation that paperwork will appear.

now this changes in certain circumstances, if the [other] debts are old and may have been passed to a dca or brought by them, then your chance of not having to pay obviously increases, however, it does nothing to stop co's finding the paperwork at a later day if you do not CCA them close the loophole [as advised]

 

i am wondering if it might not be an idea to start paying those that have provided the correct evidence [let us decide that by posting that paperwork!] something, even be it £1PCM, that way you have made some attempt and if any everget to court, the judge will just laugh them out the door. it will show you ARE making an attempt to deal with the debts you have, not [and am not suggesting this] avoiding them.

 

HTH

 

dx

[citizenB]

no you're doing fine.

but there are couple of things you now need to consider..........

it would be wrong to think that not having the correct paperwork is a way to avoid paying any outstanding debt, and you must honestly consider if there is a resonable expectation that paperwork will appear.

now this changes in certain circumstances, if the [other] debts are old and may have been passed to a dca or brought by them, then your chance of not having to pay obviously increases, however, it does nothing to stop co's finding the paperwork at a later day if you do not CCA them close the loophole [as advised]

 

i am wondering if it might not be an idea to start paying those that have provided the correct evidence [let us decide that by posting that paperwork!] something, even be it £1PCM, that way you have made some attempt and if any everget to court, the judge will just laugh them out the door. it will show you ARE making an attempt to deal with the debts you have, not [and am not suggesting this] avoiding them.

 

HTH

 

dx

 

Hi dx100uk, appreciate your support. Yes, I am paying the ones that have produced the correct paperwork.

 

When the balloon went up on this lot, I did the Income and Expenditure sheets/list of creditors etc and allocated to each creditor (on paper) the prorata percentage to each as a monthly payment. As and when the correct paperwork drops on the mat (and has been confirmed or not by CAGers) I send my offer letter off to company and maintain the payments . The balance not being paid to creditors has been put aside so that if the paperwork is received I will make an offer and if it isnt..hopefully it will mount up so that I can pay off the other creditors quicker.

 

I have started individual threads as advised for each Creditor and am posting paperwork up as and when it is received.

 

Your support is much appreciated. xx

[citizenB]

Have checked with the bank and the charges taken since HSBC refused to cancel the DD have now been paid into the account. An appointment has now been made to reconstruct the loan without the PPI on Friday week.

 

Hopefully they will accept the prorata payments on the new loan

[citizenB]

I received a rather disturbing letter from HSBC on Saturday. It was from a different department/person to the one I contacted on the 14th. The outcome of that call was that the Direct Debit Mandate would be cancelled and no more charges would racked up. Plus payment of charges incurred on the account would be repaid. I did check on Wednesday/thursday last week and the charges had been repaid and I received a statement and the repayment shows there as well.

 

However the letter I received on Saturday states categorically that the Direct Debit Mandate will NOT be cancelled.

 

I wrote back advising the author of the letter to contact the person I spoke to on the 14th and then to write to me clarifying the position. Advising at the same time if the DD mandate was not cancelled then I would without further notice be passing this on to the Financial Ombudsman.

 

I sincerely hope it is a question of right hand and left hand not communicating.

[banker_rhymes_with]

Hello CitizenB!

 

Sadly, this is another good example why it is pretty vital to only communicate with bankers in Writing.

 

They find it all too easy to deny anything said on the Telephone in my experience.

 

This is not a criticism of you at all.

 

Cheers,

BRW

[citizenB]

Hello CitizenB!

 

Sadly, this is another good example why it is pretty vital to only communicate with bankers in Writing.

 

They find it all too easy to deny anything said on the Telephone in my experience.

 

This is not a criticism of you at all.

 

Cheers,

BRW

 

Thanks BRW..

[citizenB]

Phew, well the letter saying that DD mandate hadnt been cancelled was someone in the same office as the guy I spoke to who said it would be.. !!.. Anyway, arrived at bank this morning and it HAD been cancelled.

 

Loan rewritten WITHOUT PPI. PPI premiums that had been paid will be reimbursed 5 days from now, not a fortune, less than a £100, but the loan itself is now £3,000 lighter and the reimbursement will reduce it a bit more. Handed over the I&E summary and the agent said she would send it off with the paperwork for the loan.

 

Just wait and see now I suppose.

[citizenB]

Further update.

 

Having been led to believe that the PPI was done and dusted and that reduced payments to the restructured loan would be acceptable I discontinued my complaint to the FOS.

 

However, after making 2 reduced payments I noticed that they were in fact being used to reduce the small overdraft run up whilst the bank was "investigating" my complaint.

 

I contacted HSBC and for the last month have been locked in battle with them the final letter at the end of June from HSBC saying they would not under any circumstances accept the reduced payments and my reply to them well get stuffed and I will stop the payments, let them continue with their normal debt collection procedures and advising them that I was now resurrecting my complaint to the FOS which I did and have now been advised by them that they are allocating the complaint to the casework support team.

 

On Tuesday, I received a letter from HSBC which advised :

 

Further to your recent correspondence with the FOS. Having thoroughly reviewed your case I propose to uphold your complaint. In order to ensure you are not financially disadvantaged I propose to offer you the amount of £XXXX.XX which is the early repayment fees you were charged when your personal loan was restructured.

 

Surely this should have been repaid when my complaint was last "thoroughly investigated".??

 

Needless to say, I am not at all happy. It is my opinion that HSBC have from the start of pressuring OH to take the loan through the shambles of an investigation whereby they at first refused to acknowledge a mis sold PPI, refused to cancel a DD mandate which caused more penalty charges and interest to be added to not only the account but the loan itself, they have shown themselves to be less than trustworthy.

 

So................. with the help of johnnymitch I am sending the letter below

 

 

"Dear Sir,

 

With reference to your letter dated XX XXXX 2008 in which you have agreed to uphold my complaint, after my recourse to the FOS.

I have to admit to being slightly confused. It was my belief that matters relating to the PPI situation had been already been fully investigated. However at no time was there mention of early repayment fees !!. Should this not have been repaid back in April ?

 

I am prepared to accept your offer of £XXXX.XX I have completed the form enclosed with your letter, but refuse to be bound by the condition that it is a “final settlement of my complaint against HSBC Bank plc (or any of its subsidiaries)” for the following reasons:

 

You say you have “thoroughly investigated” my complaint. I have to disagree.

In the first instance, I was unaware that an early repayment fee should have been returned. Presumably the FOS would have discovered this during the course of their investigation.

 

I am sure you are aware, having" thoroughly investigated" my complaint that I have filed a complaint at my local County Court for the return of penalty charges applied to my account over the last 6 years. Presumably this is what you seek to prevent me claiming with the condition above.

It is my opinion that HSBC has relied on my ignorance and vulnerable position to

Pressure sell a loan and PPI without due diligence.

 

Failed to investigate an early complaint regarding the mis selling of the PPI thereby involving further penalty charges/interest being applied to not only the account but the loan itself.

 

Failed to cancel a Direct Debit in favour of HSBC thereby involving further penalty charges/interest to the account. The fact that £300.00 towards those charges was repaid is irrelevant. HSBC failed to act swiftly and subjected me to unnecessary pressure to repay.

 

Led me to believe through an ambiguous statement that the only way HSBC would cancel the PPI element and accept my offer of reduced payments would be to sign the new loan contract. Had I not firmly believed the reduced payment offer would be accepted, I would not have signed them.

 

Led me to believe that the monies I have paid into the account over the last 2 months would be used to service the loan but was in fact used to repay penalty charges left on the account.

I will be copying this letter to the Financial Ombudsman, however unless/until all of my concerns are addressed I will ask them to continue with their investigation.

 

The acceptance offer proforma (duly amended) is enclosed. I would like payment by cheque please not credited to the account.

 

I await your early response."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[johnnymitch]

Hi CB

 

I've tweaked your letter around a little bit -. I think it's important to emphasise that you are accepting a Part Settlement. This leaves the door open for further claims (which you have in the court system).

 

I've also bullet-pointed your main reasons for not buckling under to their demand. However, you don't have to use them if you'd rather not. (The bullet points that is)

 

I've added the bit about the account being in dispute because it's at court and they shouldn't be allocating monies against it .... the FOS will love that...........

 

"Dear Sir,

With reference to your letter dated XX XXXX 2008 in which you have agreed to uphold my complaint, after my recourse to the FOS.

 

I have to admit to being slightly confused. It was my belief that matters relating to the PPI situation had been already been fully investigated. However at no time was there mention of early repayment fees. Should this not have been repaid back in April 2008 ?

 

I am prepared to accept your offer of £XXXX.XX in PART SETTLEMENT of this complaint and reserve the right to claim any further sums which I consider to be owing. I have completed the form enclosed with your letter, but refuse to be bound by the condition that it is a “final settlement of my complaint against HSBC Bank plc (or any of its subsidiaries)” for the following reasons:

 

· You say you have “thoroughly investigated” my complaint. I have to disagree. In the first instance, I was unaware that an early repayment fee should have been returned. Presumably the FOS would have discovered this during the course of their investigation.

 

· I am sure you are aware, having" thoroughly investigated" my complaint that I have filed a complaint at my local County Court for the return of penalty charges applied to my account over the last 6 years. Presumably this is what you seek to prevent me claiming with the condition above.

 

It is my opinion that HSBC has relied on my ignorance and vulnerable position to pressure sell a loan and PPI without due diligence.

 

You have failed to investigate an early complaint regarding the mis- selling of the PPI thereby involving further penalty charges/interest being applied to not only the account but the loan itself.

 

You have failed to cancel a Direct Debit in favour of HSBC thereby involving further penalty charges/interest to the account. The fact that £300.00 towards those charges was repaid is irrelevant. HSBC failed to act swiftly and subjected me to unnecessary pressure to repay.

 

You led me to believe, through an ambiguous statement, that the only way HSBC would cancel the PPI element and accept my offer of reduced payments would be to sign the new loan contract. Had I not firmly believed the reduced payment offer would be accepted, I would not have signed them.

 

You also led me to believe that the monies I have paid into the account over the last 2 months would be used to service the loan, but these were in fact used to repay penalty charges left on the account, which are the subject of my court claim and therefore, in dispute.

 

I will be copying this letter to the Financial Ombudsman, however unless/until all of my concerns are addressed I will ask them to continue with their investigation.

 

The acceptance offer proforma (duly amended) is enclosed. I would like payment by cheque please not credited to the account.

 

I await your early response."

 

 

It's a good letter, CB and could be useful to others in the same position - well done.

Edited July 17, 2008 by johnnymitch
Tidying up ...........

[citizenB]

Excellent, many thanks JM. That will be amended, printed and posted today.

 

Hmph, I have to spread some rep around a bit before clicking your scales..

Edited July 17, 2008 by citizenB

[citizenB]

Grrrr, I sent the above letter off on the 17th July by Special Delivery. Using their prepaid envelope which just happens to be a PO Box number. I checked with RM track n trace line today and the message says

"Your item with reference ZVXXXXXXXXXGB has reached its PO Box and is awaiting collection/delivery". It doesnt give any dates. I telephoned the Royal Mail number only to be told they have no signature,

 

the letter is awaiting collection/delivery.

 

Ummm, but dont you have to get a signature. Only when they collect it apparently.

 

When is that likely to happen..

 

The terms of the PO box contract states, their mail must be removed at least once a month.

 

Now what do I do ?

[johnnymitch]

Hi cb,

 

I think you'll probably just have to be patient for a wee bit longer . I know it's annoying, but I would imagine they'll empty their PO box at least once a week (maybe even later today). The thing is ,you know it's in there and when they do pick it up it'll be signed for..........

 

When you think about it - the 17th was Thursday - it would probably get there Friday - then there's the week-end in between ........

Edited July 21, 2008 by johnnymitch
afterthought............

[citizenB]

Thanks johnnymitch. You have probably guessed by now I dont do patience very well

[johnnymitch]

Thanks johnnymitch. You have probably guessed by now I dont do patience very well

 

 

What - you cb? Never ! :rolleyes:Perish the thought........!!!

[citizenB]

[citizenB]

Having discovered that HSBC not only mis sold the PPI that is the subject of this thread, 2 more policies had been mis sold in the same way on previous and paid up loans in 2001 and 2005.

 

So I have been attempting to get information regarding these from HSBC:evil:

 

Their latest letter mid October advised that Norwich Union were the administrators of the loans and that HSBC didnt hold the paperwork. I wrote to NU and they have replied today....

 

Dear....

 

Unfortunately we only administer policies for HSBC loand which were set up after December 2006 and which are for between £20,000 and £25,000. Therefore we are unable to assist you.

 

Yours etc,

 

Right... are HSBC playing silly b*ggers ??. Could I please invite comments on the letter I plan to send to HSBC requesting they provide the information I want.

 

Dear

 

Account Nos:

 

Your letter dated XX XXXX 2008 in response to ours of XX XXXX 2008 implied that you did not hold the insurance paperwork in respect of the above and advised that as administrators of the policies, Norwich Union were to be contacted direct by ourselves.

 

This we did, please find enclosed a copy of their reply for your attention.

We would hope that the content of your letter dated XXth was a genuine error and not intended to mislead in anyway.

 

However, we must insist you now provide us with the correct information within 14 days.

 

If you do not have it, do not know where to obtain it, or if it has been destroyed. You must advise within the same timescale.

 

Yours fed up and angry

 

 

 

Thank you

[citizenB]

Just a little nudge for comments on my letter in the previous post, please

[johnnymitch]

Hi CB ,

 

That sounds perfectly OK to me ..... you have told them (too politely in my opinion LOL!) that you have caught them out put them on the spot to produce what you require or a written conformation that they cannot ......

 

Just one little correction , (as is my wont, LOL!) :

 

If you do not have it, do not know where to obtain it, or if it has been destroyed. You must advise within the same timescale.

 

Amend to : 'If you do not have it, do not know where to obtain it, or if it has been destroyed, you must advise within the same timescale.'

 

Do you also want to add what you intend to do if they do not comply CB ?

 

Like rip their livers out and feed them to your cats ?

[citizenB]

Hi CB ,

 

That sounds perfectly OK to me ..... you have told them (too politely in my opinion LOL!) that you have caught them out put them on the spot to produce what you require or a written conformation that they cannot ......

 

Just one little correction , (as is my wont, LOL!) :

 

 

 

Amend to : 'If you do not have it, do not know where to obtain it, or if it has been destroyed, you must advise within the same timescale.'

 

Do you also want to add what you intend to do if they do not comply CB ?

 

Like rip their livers out and feed them to your cats ?

 

I would need them to provide vaccination certificates first.. I dont want to poison the cats

 

Thanks JM, I have amended as suggested.. it most certainly reads better. I think I might add a final paragraph to say if I dont receive the information within the 14 days, I will be contacting the Information Commissioner.

[johnnymitch]

Go get 'em CB ........!

[citizenB]

:lol:

[citizenB]

I am still being given the run around by HSBC regarding PPI loan paperwork. Having been told by Norwich Union that they were NOT the administrators of the PPI, I have now been given a contact in a different department of NU. Ah well.... Anyway, I do not see that I should be the one doing the running around on the 2 previous policies that have been paid up. Especially as I do not think that I will be given the paperwork inasmuch if both HSBC and NU havent cottoned on to the fact that it my intention to go for the jugular then they really are quite stupid.

 

Anyway. I am posting below images of the current loan paperwork. The first 3 images are in respect of the first current loan. The one that kickstarted OH's many financial problems.

 

The loan was mis sold PPI with the first loan and many problems were encountered before it was agreed that the PPI was mis sold and they insisted on rewriting the loan without the PPI.

 

Only about £500.00 was available for OH as HSBC had set this up purely to consolidate his HSBC credit card and the overdraft, which contained mostly charges.

 

pt2537 has started a thread in respect of multiple agreements.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/171037-multiple-agreements-falling-within.html

 

 

I wonder if someone could advise if the the paperwork for the original loan was prepared correctly.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 11, 2009 by citizenB