Bristow & Sutor - Council Tax

[zosaphine]

Good evening all. This is my first post on this website and i was hoping someone would be able to give me some advice?

 

Initially, i just want to say what a godsend the internet is, because i would have been in total ignorance of my rights had i not had access to it!

 

Ok, here is my problem. Advice greatly appreciated.

 

My husband has the Council tax in his name. He part owns a business which was doing quite well, until one of their clients - who they had spent a great deal of time working for, went bust and failed to pay them a penny. This created a huge loss for my Husbands business, and whilst they are trying to pursue this with the Official Receivers dealing with the company, it doesn't help us financially in the meanwhile.

 

Basically this has resulted in my Husband and his Business partner having to reduce their monthly take home pay by half - to keep their business afloat and not to make any Employees redundant. This is effectively the same as me having been made redundant and us loosing my wage.

 

However - it it worse now, as 12 weeks ago i gave birth to our first child. So, not only has my husbands wage halved, I am no longer earning my salary, only receiving SMP, which is making us literally live hand to mouth each month.

 

My Husband has also received a huge tax bill from the IR for the previous tax year when he was earning considerably more than he is now. I appreciate this is a debt to the Crown and he has to give this priority, followed then by Council Tax. He is in contact with the IR and making arrangements to repay. So our problem is the Council Tax arrears.

 

We have been visited approximately on 4 occasions by a company called Bristow & Sutor. Both of us has refused to answer the front door to them.

 

The final straw came for me this evening at 7:45pm. My Husband is working away today and had yet to arrive home. I was breastfeeding our baby upstairs trying to get her settled for the night. There was a loud banging on the front door and the doorbell was rang several times. I wondered who on earth would be doing that, at that time of the evening, as all out friends and family were aware we had a young baby. I looked out of our front bedroom window and there was a large transit van parked on our driveway blocking in my car.

 

I refused to respond to the front door as my main concern was that my baby had become very upset with the noise, and I wanted to calm her.

 

I then hear the front door handle being tried, before something was put through the letter box. After they had driven off, i went downstairs to see that a piece of paper had been posted - this was NOT in an envelope, let alone in a sealed envelope.

 

This was a photocopied standard letter where the Bailiff had filled in the dates. The bailiff signature at the bottom of the letter is illegible.

BRISTOW & SUTOR. NOTICE OF INTENTION TO FORCE ENTRY.

 

It read as follows:

I visited today to remove goods that were listed by a Bailiff on 29/10/07. These goods were not abandoned; they were left with you whilst a period of time was allowed for you to pay off this debt in full including costs. You have not done so and the law directs that the goods should be removed and sold.

 

If you refuse me access to remove these goods I have the right to break in to remove them, in your absence if necessary. To avoid this you may ring me on the mobile telephone number below, to arrange to meet me to pay, or allow me access to remove.

 

If you are unsure of my rights to do this, i urge you to take this letter to a Solicitor and refer them to the Appeal Court cases of Khazanchi & Another V Faircharm Investments and McLeod V Butterwick as reported in The Times law reports on 25th March 1998.

 

If i hear nothing from you by 10am on 9/1/08, i will interpret this to be a continued refusal of access and i will return to remove goods by forcing entry if no one is present or if i am refused access by someone in the property.

 

My questions are as follows:

1) My Husband and myself have NEVER allowed any Bailiff into our home. According to the cases that the Bailiff's themselves have referred us to review, i see from the document on the Internet, the case allowed forced entry, solely because the Bailiff had previously been allowed into the property.

 

Q1) Therefore can the bailiff force entry to our property, as we have never allowed them in?

 

2) The item they have listed is the car that was previously parked on our driveway. They had listed it's registration number, and also stated they had seized it's logbook, keys and all documentation.

Now the vehicle they listed is still under a HP agreement, and the log-book is in My Husbands name, although I have given him the money each month to pay this as it was always intended to be my vehicle (i could not get finance at the time), and he had his own vehicle, which he subsequently had to return to the Finance Company when his salary dropped and he could not afford to keep it.

 

Q2) Can they seize the car as it's still under finance agreement?

 

Q4) If the vehicle is not parked on our drive, but on the road outside our property/highway, can they still seize this, as i think i have read somewhere there is an ancient law that prevents this (or have i dreamt that one up)?

 

Q5) Can we request/demand the Council take this account back from the Bailiff's for the following reasons?

i) Breach of Husbands privacy rights under the Data Protection Act, and also the Bailiff's breaching their own code of conduct by posting a letter NOT in an envelope.

ii) Misrepresentation of their legal rights to force entry, when they cannot.

iii) Failure of the Council to ensure the agency acting under their instruction/employment are adhering to the law/codes of conduct.

 

Sorry for such a long post, but really need advice. Thanks in advance for taking the time to read this!

[chris600uk]

No of course they can't, and they know that!

 

The letter you've got is pure gold, don't lose it.

 

However you do need to organise yourselves fairly quickly, and collate every letter they have ever given you, that is the council and the bailiffs.

 

Then, and this matters, read some of the posts, I always recommend my own http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bailiffs/120845-rossendales-final-reminder-i.html

because I went through this myself and you can see my mistakes as well as my victory (so far).

 

If they have made 4 visits then you should have 4 lots of paperwork from each visit. You need the name of the bailiff from each set of papers, which you can pm to one of those who can check (usually tomtubby) when she posts.

 

That's just for starters.

 

Chris.

[chris600uk]

 

 

I visited today to remove goods that were listed by a Bailiff on 29/10/07. These goods were not abandoned; they were left with you whilst a period of time was allowed for you to pay off this debt in full including costs. You have not done so and the law directs that the goods should be removed and sold.

 

If you refuse me access to remove these goods I have the right to break in to remove them, in your absence if necessary. To avoid this you may ring me on the mobile telephone number below, to arrange to meet me to pay, or allow me access to remove.

 

If you are unsure of my rights to do this, i urge you to take this letter to a Solicitor and refer them to the Appeal Court cases of Khazanchi & Another V Faircharm Investments and McLeod V Butterwick as reported in The Times law reports on 25th March 1998.

 

If i hear nothing from you by 10am on 9/1/08, i will interpret this to be a continued refusal of access and i will return to remove goods by forcing entry if no one is present or if i am refused access by someone in the property.

 

Yes that is scary. They are saying that they have levied on your goods.

 

The law is simple about this. They have no right of entry unless they have already gained peaceful entry. Which you said they haven't.

So they must have a Walking Possession Agreement, do you have one that's been posted through the door?

 

Chris

[Goldlady]

How much Council Tax do you owe?

 

Is there any chance you might be eligible for Council Tax Benefit in your current situation?

 

If so you need to get a claim in asap. This will at least stop you incurring further problems. We did this when our business got into difficulties and ended up having to involve our MP as it seems that 'self employed' = 'wads of cash in the back pocket' to most salaried government employees. Which is actually quite a useful tool to stop them in their tracks.

 

Also, move the car

[chris600uk]

"Now the vehicle they listed is still under a HP agreement"

 

Well if you inform them of that then AFAIK they have no right to take it, because it's not your property, it still belongs to the HP company.

 

"Q4) If the vehicle is not parked on our drive, but on the road outside our property/highway, can they still seize this, as i think i have read somewhere there is an ancient law that prevents this (or have i dreamt that one up)?"

 

No you didn't, it's the Statute of Marlborough, and the problem isn't the law, it's proving the vehicle isn't where they will say it was. ie, outside your house or in the driveway, but as it isn't your car anyway...............

 

"Q5) Can we request/demand the Council take this account back from the Bailiff's for the following reasons?

i) Breach of Husbands privacy rights under the Data Protection Act, and also the Bailiff's breaching their own code of conduct by posting a letter NOT in an envelope.

ii) Misrepresentation of their legal rights to force entry, when they cannot.

iii) Failure of the Council to ensure the agency acting under their instruction/employment are adhering to the law/codes of conduct."

 

I complained about Data protection and that didn't get me far.

What mattered most was if the bailiff had a valid certificate for the firm he's working for, if you can justify a form 4 complaint, and if you tell them that you are recording any conversation that takes place (I was).

 

I would cut and paste a letter from the site (I thought mine were ok) and email it to them and fax it tomorrow morning.

Tell them the car is not your property because it is on HP and who the HP company are; they can HPI it to check. Ask them for details of the bailiffs certificate, and which court granted it.

 

Chris.

[chris600uk]

Goldlady that's a good point, if they ring the council first thing it's possible they could get action stopped.

 

Worth a try, along with everything else.

I don't beleive in leaving anything to chance.

 

Chris

[zosaphine]

Yes that is scary. They are saying that they have levied on your goods.

 

The law is simple about this. They have no right of entry unless they have already gained peaceful entry. Which you said they haven't.

So they must have a Walking Possession Agreement, do you have one that's been posted through the door?

 

Chris

Without digging out the paperwork, it may be a walking possession agreement they posted through the door. i cant recall exactly what title was written on it.

 

I'm not 100% on what this document entitles them to thought - does a WPAnot have to be signed by the owner of the goods though? Seeing as though the vehicle is on finance, wouldn't the Finance Company have to sign to agree to this?

[zosaphine]

How much Council Tax do you owe?

 

Is there any chance you might be eligible for Council Tax Benefit in your current situation?

 

If so you need to get a claim in asap. This will at least stop you incurring further problems. We did this when our business got into difficulties and ended up having to involve our MP as it seems that 'self employed' = 'wads of cash in the back pocket' to most salaried government employees. Which is actually quite a useful tool to stop them in their tracks.

 

Also, move the car

 

Hi Goldlady. I don't think we are entitled to the CT Benefit, but i will look into is. Didn't know such a thing existed to be honest!

 

As for moving the car, can we park it over the road without them being able to do anything with it, or would you suggest parking on the next road along out of sight of our home? We don't have access to a lockable garage :-|

[Goldlady]

Er when I was in similar situation I parked it about three miles away at a friend's house and cycled home:o That was when ex employers were trying to repossess it after they sacked me for having a baby.

[chris600uk]

As for moving the car, can we park it over the road without them being able to do anything with it, or would you suggest parking on the next road along out of sight of our home? We don't have access to a lockable garage :-|

 

Well, theoretically yes; however you mentioned a timescale concerning that, and I beleive you should be able to solve that before that time is up.

 

If I were in your position, I would fax them a Statutory Declaration first thing in the morning making it crystal clear that the car is the property of the Hire Purchase company and cannot be Siezed.

 

DRAFT STATUTORY DECLARATION

 

 

 

 

To: Rxxxxxxxxxs, Hxxxxxn Mill, xxx xxxx xxx Road, Rxxxxxxxxxl, Rxxxxxdale, Lancashire, xxx xxx

 

 

I (my full name)

 

of (my full address)

 

Do solemnly and sincerely declare that:

 

I have am not now and have never been at any time the Registered Keeper or Owner of the Blue Ford Focus vehicle registration mark XXXXXXX.

 

And I make this solemn declaration conscientiously believing the same to be true and by virtue of the provisions of the Statutory Declarations Act 1835 and Section 5 of The Perjury Act 1911.

 

 

Signature:

 

 

Declared at: (office address)

 

On the.......... day of ...............two thousand and..........

 

Before me: (the solicitor or commissioners name)

 

A Commissioner for Oaths, or Notary Public/Justice of the Peace/Solicitor having the powers conferred on a Commissioner for Oaths.

 

 

You'd have to alter it to suit but basically that would scotch their levy because if it is made upon property that doesn't belong to you, then it's a false levy and they can't rely upon it.

 

If you read my posts I think I describe the process of swearing.

 

You have to have a plan, and follow that plan; I'll say it again, it worked for me, there's no reason why what I did shouldn't work for you.

 

Goodnight and good luck,

 

Chris

[Saffronflowers]

One thing that has struck me is this not NDR not Council Tax if so then they have no right whatsoever to come to your house and take your personal goods.

 

I would also notify your Concil immediatley regarding the letter because even if they have levied your car, it by way means that they can use that WPA to gain entry to your home.

 

SFx

[zosaphine]

One thing that has struck me is this not NDR not Council Tax if so then they have no right whatsoever to come to your house and take your personal goods.

 

I would also notify your Concil immediatley regarding the letter because even if they have levied your car, it by way means that they can use that WPA to gain entry to your home.

 

SFx

 

H Saffronflowers, what does it is not NDR mean?

[Saffronflowers]

Non Domestic Rates - the business of equivalent of Council Tax.

 

SFx

[zosaphine]

 

I would also notify your Concil immediatley regarding the letter because even if they have levied your car, it by way means that they can use that WPA to gain entry to your home.

 

SFx

 

Can i just query this? They have attempted to levy a vehicle subject to HP finance, and we have not signed anything like a WPA - i thought we had to do this to make it enforceable?

[chris600uk]

Non Domestic Rates? Surely that would have been on the paperwork

[Saffronflowers]

No - you dont have to sign and levy to make it enforeceable, sadly!!! However, if the car is on HP they cant levy on it and therefore the levy is invalid.

 

SFx

[zosaphine]

Non Domestic Rates? Surely that would have been on the paperwork

 

Unfortunately, definately Council Tax on our home, not rates on his place of business.

 

Can i just query also (can you tell i'm new to this situation), as the car is on HP and therefore renders their levy unenforceably/unlawful.. does this mean any charges they have added for us to pay on top of the debt, for the removal of the levied goods, are also unlawful & they must remove them from the account they hold?

 

I am just drafting something to them now, re the levy and to request an itemised list of the charges thay have made so far giving them 14 days to respond - does this also mean they cannot turn up at our door until they have provided us with this?

[Saffronflowers]

Hi there

 

They will be able to charge for the two visits £24.50 and £18.00 but they will not be able to charge the levy fee or attending with a van, as the levy does not exist if you see what I mean!!!

 

You need to seen a SAR there is a template somewhere I will go and look for it.

 

How much Council tax is outstanding, I have looked back but cant see. The council's ideal would be that you pay this by the end of March, their financial year, is this a possibility?

 

SFx

[zosaphine]

OK.

Whilst dealing with a screaming hungry baby, i have managed to dig out Bristow & Sutor's paperwork. Seems a bit of a minefield - multiple visit fee's etc. This is the details on the documents i have:

 

There are 2 accounts for the Council tax No's 444 = £597.70 & 445 = £1066.24 owed.

 

Document 1: Notification of Bailiff Visit. Dated 23/10/07.

Details amount due of £1861.94, which includes a fee of £24.50 for their visit today.

 

Document 2: Notification of Bailiff Visit. Dated 25/10/07.

Details amount due of £1897.44 which includes a fee of £36 for their visit today.

 

Document 3:

Page 1: Notice of Seizure of Goods. Dated 29/10/07.

Total claimed £1873.44 (less than the amount they were claiming 4 days prior!).

Page 2: Memorandum of Amounts Due:

CTax ref 444 £597.70

1st visit fee incurred on 23/10 - £24.50

2nd visit fee incurred on 25/10 - £18.00

Levy fee £44.00

 

CT Ref 445 £1066.24

1st visit fee incurred on 23/10 - £24.50

2nd visit fee incurred on 25/10 - £18.00

Levy fee £56.00

 

At the bottom of the document it states Redemption of Goods fee (Head H) £24.50

Balance transferred to Notice of Seizure £1922.44 (which has been crossed through & then £1873.44 written above.

 

Page 3: Inventory of Goods Seized.

Vehicle make & model listed.

Reg No. listed.

Colour listed

Tax disk number & taxed until date listed.

Together with all keys and documents.

 

 

Document 4: Dated 27/11/07. IMPORTANT NOTICE - A BAILIFF TEAM VISITED TODAY TO REMOVE GOODS BY SALE OF PUBLIC AUCTION.

 

The initial charge for todays visit amounted to £............. this was left blank!

The total now due and payable is £2103.44

 

Document 5: dated 29/01/08. Notice of Intent to Force Entry.

Amount quoted now due £2333.44

No section on this letter the details of cost of this visit.

 

Can someone advise me which fee's we are liable for?

 

They seem to have duplicated their charges on each visit, as there are 2 accounts.

 

Also, if the original debts only amounts to £1663.94 (597.70+1066.24), are we really liable to pay their additional fee's which total £669.50??

[Saffronflowers]

I think we need to get Tom Tubby to have a look here, I will email her and get her to take a look.

 

I know that there is something regarding charging multiple visits at the same time but cant remember if they are or are not allowed to do this.

 

Have you told the council that you have a newborn and that this is causing a lot of distress post partum?

 

SFx

[zosaphine]

 

Have you told the council that you have a newborn and that this is causing a lot of distress post partum?

 

SFx

 

No. Do you think this is worthwhile? Is this something they have to take into account?

[Saffronflowers]

Yes I do - you still in a medicaly vulnerable posistion ad have been since they started contacting you. Also you are breastfeeding and the stress cannot be doing your milk any good. I would tell them this, it might be worth getting your Midwife or H/V to write a letter to you stating the effects of increased stress on an b/feeding mother and vulnerability to PMT!

 

SFx

[chris600uk]

I've had this discussion with tomtubby and others, in fact it's happened to me.

No they are not allowed to "excessively" multiply their fees. I'll post them again in a minute.

 

Also, I've looked at Beatsons Review, and the law they have quoted for RE-ENTRY to the premises applies to just that, re-entry.

It doesn't mean forced entry in the first place without a "breaking-in" order, and in that case the bailiffs had gained peaceful entry already.

In fact to quote Beatson:-

it is not possible to levy distress without entering the premises.

See the point?

 

Now since you've already said they haven't entered the premises, and only posted the Walking Possesion Agreement through the door, then their levy is false and you must challenge it in writing, fax, email, pigeon, whatever!.

 

Then, as I did, you can challenge their fees, reducing their earning potential in your case, and making you a less attractive target.

 

Then you attempt to "shoot the messenger", and investigate the bailiffs who attended.

 

As one ex-bailiff has said, their powers are limited, so they rely on their victims perception of their powers to intimidate and terrorise them into agreement.

 

Chris.

[chris600uk]

This is the letter I sent challenging the levy

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

Re: xxxxxxxxx Client reference xxxxxxxxx

Please understand that I am fully aware of my rights and you will not

gain entry to my home under any circumstances to levy goods

I know the fees allowed under statute and when these fees can be applied.

 

In my letter to you dated 25th September 2007 I asked you for a full breakdown of exactly what you say I owe you in total, detailing what it’s for, and what addresses they relate to and the dates.

I appreciate that you might be unable to supply information about how the liability figure was arrived at, but I have discovered in your reply dated 9th October 2007 that you have listed a charge for a levy fee dated 3rd August 2007 which concerns a vehicle xxxxxxx that was parked in my driveway around that time.

This vehicle is not my property, it is not registered to me; it is the property of a friend who parked it there for safety while he went on holiday.

 

So there can be no levy fee because the levy fee you have charged is ILLEGAL.

I am entitled to challenge fees for a levy upon goods that are not my property.

Please deduct this unlawful charge from your outstanding fee record.

 

Please understand that at no time have I refused to pay my Council Tax arrears

The debts subject to the liability orders will be cleared very shortly

The outstanding fees that you are legally entitled to will also be paid

I am sending a copy of this letter to LiverpoolCity Council

 

Please supply the following information about your account xxxxxxx; the total debt on this account, what each charge is for with the date each visit took place, the name of the bailiff, the court at which he was certified and the name of the bailiff who attended on each date (please provide receipts where necessary).

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

You would point out that the vehicle is subject to a HP agreement

 

Chris.

[chris600uk]

Here is the letter in which I challenge their fees

 

Re: xxxxxxx, xxxxxxx Client reference xxxxxxx, xxxxxxx

Please understand that I am fully aware of my rights and you will not

gain entry to my home under any circumstances to levy goods

I know the fees allowed under statute and when these fees can be applied.

 

Dear Sir/madam,

I received your NOTICE OF REMOVAL PROCEEDINGS for the above accounts dated 4th December 2007.

You have not gained peaceful entry to my home; therefore you have no right of entry.

You are within your rights to drive around in a van if you wish, but you may not charge me for that, even if you call at my home.

 

I have discovered that you are not entitled to charge for any more than 2 visits to my home and that you are only allowed to charge ONCE for each visit.

So on the 10th May 2007 when you came to my home you became entitled to one payment of £24.50 (see note below) covering ALL accounts you were dealing with that day.

On the 15th May when you came to my home again you became entitled to a further payment of £18.50 (see note below), covering ALL accounts you were dealing with that day.

This means that you will be receiving a payment for £43.00 less the £10.00 we have already paid to you making a final payment to you of £33.00.

 

I am concerned that by charging for each account on the same visit you have charged fees that are EXCESSIVE and that your bailiff has levied ILLEGALLY, unfairly reducing my ability to pay my Council Tax arrears.

If you believe that the charges listed in your letters dated 9th October 2007 are legitimate, I would ask you to provide the name of the bailiff, the court at which he was certified, the date you believe the visit took place and what the fee consists of (please provide receipts where necessary).

 

I have not refused to pay the Council Tax arrears or fees that you are legally entitled to.

I am sending a copy of this letter to xxxxxxxxx City Council

Please reply within 14 days, confirming that your records have been amended.

 

 

Yours faithfully,

 

if you were to use it obviously you'd adjust it to suit your own circs.

 

Chris