MBNA letter - world record bullsh*t attempt?

[ScarletPimpernel]

Having sent a CCA to MBNA, I received a copy of an application form (with signatures), and a copy of T & Cs that did not relate to the application form.

 

I wrote to MBNA telling them that what they had supplied was a pre-contractual document, and not an executed agreement. Because the debt was in dispute, I also complained that they were continuing with collection activity contrary to OFT guidelines.

 

This is their rather long reply, with some of my comments in red.

 

 

Dear Sir Percy

 

Thank you for your recent letter regarding the above MBNA credit card. I have now concluded my investigation into your complaint and would like to take this opportunity to outline my findings.

 

I noted from your letter that you have raised a number of important points regarding the Consumer Credit Act 1974, which I would like to address below:

 

1. In your letter, you also referred to a copy of your credit agreement which MBNA provided with your credit card (under s.178 CCA). You state in your letter that you regard the copy of your agreement to be invalid. a. I did not mention a copy agreement provided with a credit card. 2. I did not state that any agreement was invalid - I pointed out that the document they sent me was a pre-contractual application form, and they referred to it as such in their covering letter.

 

We would disagree with your assertions here; the copy of your credit agreement which was sent to you under s.78 did comply with the necessary requirements. A lender, such as MBNA, is not required to serve a copy of the credit agreement which includes signatures - as the law expressly permits lenders to omit signatures from copies of all credit agreements. I didn't mention signatures at all!

 

For the avoidance of any doubt, we would like to confirm that MBNA has provided you with all necessary information under s.78; and in any event, your credit card agreement has remained valid and your obligation to pay intact. As such, any sums outstanding on your account are still owing and due and until these sums are repaid, this information will continue to register at the CRAs. I suppose they are referring to me pointing out that the documents they sent didn't show my consent to process data.

 

2. Unfortunately MBNA is not able to stop processing your personal information. This is not only because of the reasons stated above, but also because the use of credit reference information is an integral part oof the maintenance of your credit facility and the management of credit card accounts. Part of the terms and conditions of the credit card account what, the ones you failed to send me? held by you state that MBNA will use credit reference agency information to manage your account and that MBNA will report account information to those credit reference agencies. Our agreements with the credit reference agencies themselves, as well as the rules which govern the use and sharing of such information require MBNA to report account level data in this way. Under the Data Protection Act, MBNA must report accurate and up to date information at all times. MBNA should also have my express consent to do so, which they are unable to demonstrate, but it doesn't stop them... As you have used the card and incurred a debt, this will be recorded at the credit reference agencies. Similarly, we will report the repayments which are made, or not made on to the credit crad account, with the credit reference agencies.

 

3. The priority application form we sent you was in fact a copy of your credit agreement, as is evidenced by its form and content. So, 'Application form' and a list of offers on the reverse makes it a credit agreement? In actual fact this document served two purposes. It captured the information required to consider an application for credit In other words, it's an pre-contractual application form... and also contained the the terms prescribed by the CCA and applicable secondary legislation. Except that the terms aren't on the same document, and weren't provided with the copy form.

 

4. The combined effect of the various applicable consumer credit law provisions is that MBNA must provide a true copy of the credit agreement. This is what is provided to customers with each credit card. A true copy need not be an exact copy, but must contain every material provision included in the original (as varied). This requirement affords MBNA some flexibility in terms of the presentation of the information, which is why our card carrier documents slightly differently from (although with the same prescribed content as) the original agreement. This is why, for example, we do not routinely include signatures or signatures boxes (sic) on the copy. Is it me, or does anyone else detect an aroma of male bovine excreta here?

 

5. The full set of terms and conditions which are sent to customers under both S78 and 85 of the the CCA are in fact the most recent terms applicable. We send this version of the terms and conditions for two main reasons: (i) it is this version which is currently in force and applicable to the account (and therefore most useful to the majority of customers) and (ii) Regulations made under the CCA state that where a credit agreement has been varied and we later serve a copy of that credit agreement, the copy shall include either a statement of the latest notice of variation or a statement of the terms as varied. We provide the latter so that the customer can see the amended terms and conditions in their entirety (rather than having to refer and apply notices of variation to earlier terms and conditions). But since the original terms and conditions are supposed to be part of the agreement, and on the same document, why not provide them? Unless, of course, you don't have them...

 

We disagree that MBNA has not sent you what you have asked for; in fact, we are confident that MBNA has provided you with all the necessary information which is required by law. As such, we would like to reaffirm the afct that your credit card balance is still owing and is payable by you. As we are a telephone based bank and you owe money which you have failed to repay, we may make further telephone contact with you - for example, if you fail to make suitable arrangements to repay your account. But, as I have pointed out to MBNA on several occasions, they don't have my phone number... For the avoidance of any doubt we would also like to confirm that MBNA does not regard this account balance or your obligation to repay as being in dispute. Oh dear, Stuart, have you forgotten about the unlawful charges dispute already? Shame on you. Accordingly, your account will continue to register at credit reference agencies until your debt has been cleared.

 

Instead of all this circumloquacious nonsense, why didn't he just say "It's an application form and we know it's not an enforceable agreement. We haven't bothered to respond to your formal complaint about our breaches of the OFT guidelines, or sent the complaints procedure we requested."

 

Apparently this is their final response.

 

Comments/views, anyone?

[pt2537]

Hmm,

 

s59(1) CCA 1974 Springs to mind, application to enter into future credit = void agreement.

 

i must agree with the title of the thread, the letters full of it:lol:

 

 

regards

paul

[Jeff2000]

Hmm,

 

s59(1) CCA 1974 Springs to mind, application to enter into future credit = void agreement.

 

i must agree with the title of the thread, the letters full of it:lol:

 

 

regards

paul

 

 

 

 

Yep! Couldn't agree more!

[ScarletPimpernel]

By chance, MBNA phoned about my other half's account this evening. They have a letter authorising me to act for her, and of course it's all supposed to be in writing only.

 

Anyway, the worm on the end of the phone didn't like it when I said I was recording the conversation, and then asked why they were ringing when everything should be in writing. Instant bluster mode: "We have a legal right to ring whenever we like when we're owed money", he told me grandly (well, it would have been grand were it not for his whiny, adenoidal voice and unfortunate accent - it all spoke of acne, hair 'product' and cheap suits. He probably has one of those ghastly Nehru-collared ones for best.). "Oh really", I replied: "And which statute law are you relying on to make that statement?". Silence. Me: "Hello? Are you still there". Him: "I don't have to explain it you!" Me: "I'm rather afraid you do. If you say you have a legal right to do something, surely you can tell me under which law, or I might think you were making it up or lying, and that just won't do. Anyway, I thought you were a 'specialist'; in what, exactly, since you don't appear to know about the law or guidelines that apply to the company you work for." Silence again, and then: "I don't have to talk to you, you aren't the account holder." Me: "But you are talking to me, and you have a letter on file to say you can." Him: "I can't find it, so I'm not going to talk to you." Me: "Have you lost the letter? How was I able to speak to other people on previous occasions if there's nothing on file?" Him: "You must tell your girlfriend to ring me tonight." Me: "Firstly, I don't have to do anything, and I certainly don't respond to ill-mannered behaviour of that sort. Secondly, if you have something to say to my girlfriend you may write to her; if you call again you may speak to me, but I will be making a complaint anyway." Him (sneeringly): "What're you gonna complain about?" Me: "I shall save that for my letter, but it will include your failure to comply with the OFT guidance..." At this point, the rodent began to try to shout over me, telling me that he wasn't scared - though his manner suggested otherwise. I really dislike people who interrupt. Anyway, I reminded him that it was all recorded, at which point he said he was terminating the call. He sounded as if he suddenly needed the lavatory - perhaps that's why he had to go so quickly...

 

We never did find out what they were ringing about.

[pt2537]

Probably due to the Bull$h1t training they are given on how to deal with customers by MBNA, they are probaly told this dribble so often that they actually believe it:)

[Curlyben]

Geee that's nice of them.

So it's not just DCA's that act like complete intellectually challenged pondlife

[ScarletPimpernel]

Indeed. Not just with MBNA, either; the only variable seems to be the number of calls different DCAs think they are 'legally' allowed to make in a day.

 

I rang them later and managed to speak to the one holding the brain cell; he agreed that they shouldn't phone when asked not to, though he did try the 'we're a phone-based bank' line, to which I replied that alas for them we are a letter-based household.

[Goldlady]

Sir Percy this is like a carbon copy of my OH's conversations with MBNA about a year ago. Like your OH I had authorised him to deal with things and he did a fabulous job. The day they rang my next door neighbours and they brought their phone to our house was an absolute classic:D I thought they would have learned by now, but obviously not. Their behaviour is worse than some of the DCAs for sure.

 

Anyway I now have a letter in my file from June saying that as they can't find my CCA at all, not even a Blue Peter copy, they will not be contacting me again.

[ScarletPimpernel]

Today I received a lurid pink envelope from Dublin, which contains an equally lurid document from the ubiquitous Dee Dillimore. Alas, I haven't a scanner, but the document is essentially an attempt to play on the fears of those who don't understand a) the legal process and b) that no agreement = non-enforceable.

[Jeff2000]

Today I received a lurid pink envelope from Dublin, which contains an equally lurid document from the ubiquitous Dee Dillimore. Alas, I haven't a scanner, but the document is essentially an attempt to play on the fears of those who don't understand a) the legal process and b) that no agreement = non-enforceable.

 

 

Hello SP,

 

 

Are you at liberty to disclose the contents of the abovementioned letter by any chance?

 

 

Jeff.

[ScarletPimpernel]

Hello SP,

 

 

Are you at liberty to disclose the contents of the abovementioned letter by any chance?

 

 

Jeff.

 

 

With pleasure. It defies description by the written word alone, so I have photographed it and will put it up when I get home. I have to say that it is quite the most ridiculous document I have seen for some time.

[ScarletPimpernel]

And now, for your viewing pleasure:

 

 

 

Well, MBNA, let me get right to the point:

 

You can send all the silly, patronising, American-stylee drivel you want, but without an agreement, it's not going to get you anywhere.

 

I'm sorely tempted to send a reply in the same style, but I suspect that it won't do much good. All it'll do is get them to send another cut 'n' paste response from some grandly-titled (Vice-president ) office boy.

 

They have one thing right; I have imagined a life without credit cards, store cards and personal loans - and it's great!

[pt2537]

Hi SP

 

what an utter load of Bow-Larks

 

still it made me laugh reading the letter they sent you, the most worrying thing is that they actually believe the rubbish that they send out is right:D

 

regards

paul

[ScarletPimpernel]

I am still trying to work out why there is such a prevalence of pink - is pink the new scary DCA red? Have Crapquest bought up all the red ink?

 

I am only surprised (and a little disappointed) that it doesn't contain the classic Robinson Way-stylee 'valid even if not laughed at by you' bolleaux.

[Goldlady]

We need a CGA equivalent of this:p

 

I have responded to DCA letters in the same tone as they have written to me, ie.

 

TAKE NOTICE - YOU HAVE FAILED TO RESPOND TO MY REQUEST FOR A VALID CONSUMER CREDIT AGREEMENT etc etc

 

Sorry that should have been

 

TAKE NOTICE - YOU HAVE FAILED TO RESPOND TO MY REQUEST FOR A VALID CONSUMER CREDIT AGREEMENT etc etc

 

If pink is the new colour:D

[Goldlady]

I agree on the life without credit cards - I have done it for two years now and it is a great feeling living on what you have, even if, like yesterday, you have only got £2 to your name till a cheque clears.

[pt2537]

Hi Goldlady,

 

i know how that feels living without credit cards, been an OU student for three years and i dont have 2 pennies to scratch my **** with at the mo but i wont sign up for any credit thats for sure.

[Goldlady]

Hi PT, didn't realise you were on OU same as me:p

[Curlyben]

Hmm I like the way the "It's Your Call" section blatantly breaks a number of OFT collection guidelines.

[miss muppet]

Hi CB, got exactly the same bowlarks myself altho thought the colours were quite fetching, sent another letter off pointing out the errors of their ways - just think we are responsible for the destruction of several rain forests but hey it keeps up the typing speeds:D

[SteveH2508]

I am still trying to work out why there is such a prevalence of pink - is pink the new scary DCA red? Have Crapquest bought up all the red ink?

 

I am only surprised (and a little disappointed) that it doesn't contain the classic Robinson Way-stylee 'valid even if not laughed at by you' bolleaux.

 

My suggestion is - Christmas is coming up and pretty pink paper chains. (unfortunately the pink missives I got were not 'soft, strong and thoroughly absorbent'! (Capt. E Blackadder)

[miss muppet]

Wow what a thought for a new business opportunity - just a bit of sticky tape needed or could shred and use for tinsel on Xmas Tree:D

[ODC]

Makes a change from the ones they used to send out with the pigs on them

[ScarletPimpernel]

No fewer than three items of post from the Chester clowns this morning:

 

- a 'creditor's notice' in official-looking brown envelope, which breaches OFT guidelines by stating that they could "apply to Court for a judgment, and ask them to consider an Attachment of Earnings" - carefully missing out the bits in between. It's signed by the 'Head of Customer Assistance' - so far there are three different names claiming this job.

 

- a personalised offer of a consolidation loan (another OFT breach)

 

- a pre-approved Virgin (aka MBNA) Credit Card offer (and another OFT breach)

 

 

'Hello left hand, this is right hand. Radio check - over'

[ScarletPimpernel]

Looking through my file, I see that MBNA have told me, in different letters over the last six weeks, that they will take me to court, sell the debt on, pass the debt to a DCA, pass the debt to solicitors, cancel my birthday and cause the sky to fall in - and all 'in the next seven days'.

 

Scary, no?